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Mr Waffles

Orcs Must Die vs. Dungeon Defenders II

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Has anyone played this game?   It's the most similar game to DD2 that I can think of.   I actually like some things in it better than DD2.  They just released beta of "Orcs Must Die: Unchained" which is basically the same as DD2.  It's interesting to see how another team does things.   

I'd like to see DD2 improve.  I like the game enough, I don't want any real major changes and this is just a .. forum thread so I don't expect anything.  I just thought it might help to throw some ideas out there.

The biggest difference is DD2 has loot / gear so your tower damage scales up from like 15 - 6000.   In Orcs you don't get gear and you only get a few upgrades so your tower damage starts at 25 and gets up to like 35.

There are a few things in Orcs Must Die that I don't see in DD2.   The enemies are balanced better.  It's mostly enemies that attack heroes, DD2 only has ogres and otherwise.. I can just like stand in a wave of monsters .. I know the tiny goblins attack you but they throw like pebbles.  The enemies in Orcs Must Die are clearly anti-hero or  base rush enemies.  They have archers that shoot glowing projectiles that are easy to see, you know when they are coming and you know they will attack you.  In DD2 the spear guys have a fairly short range so you don't have to worry about them much and if they do attack you its hard to notice the spears.. maybe if they were flaming spears .. or maybe a new enemy that shoots flaming spears at long range and is anti - hero.  

DD2 needs enemies that can stun / slow /chase down/ steal blue mana?  Big ogre sized enemies that the player will know they are coming after heroes.  In Orcs the enemies will go after the hero if attacked but turn back to the core if the hero dies / if they haven't been attacked in the last 2 sec.   Some enemies go after heroes if they are in range or just go after them and ignore the core / assassin type enemies.  In DD2 the ogre is really slow and you have to get close for him to chase you.  A small fast ogre that can like throw rocks / run after players that are far away would be good.    

The traps/ towers in Orcs are more interesting.  You can place some on ceilings / walls.  There are slow towers.. we have frost tower but something like an oil pit.. that makes enemies take extra fire damage would be neat.  There are a lot of traps that pop out of the floor/ spikes / pushing enemies back/  spring that shoots enemies back / swinging chains/   Though I don't know if that would be hard to do with DD2 physics engine?  In orcs a lot of the traps are.. traps that spring once and then take 5 sec to reset so monsters get through.  In DD2 the towers just shoot constantly / most of them  and I think more stuff that springs would be good.  

I think the spring traps thing is interesting because it insures that some creeps get through for the player to fight.   Combined with enemies that go after heroes it makes the game play more active.  

What keeps me playing DD2 is.. the monthly missions and that it has the tavern / social hub where you can run around. Collecting loot is also something, trying to get max stats.  Endgame still needs a bit of work though,  I like how nightmare in DD1 introduced new enemies.  The extra modes .. that one where you run through a gauntlet of traps and try to get to the finish line was fun.  I also like the level design and art style of DD2 a little more than Orcs.

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I updated the thread title to keep this in General Discussion, but we should keep the focus of this thread on the differences between the two games and what you'd like to see in DD2 rather than talking about OMDU. If you just want to talk about OMDU, you should make a new thread in the Defenders Lounge. :D

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@iamisom quote:

I updated the thread title to keep this in General Discussion, but we should keep the focus of this thread on the differences between the two games and what you'd like to see in DD2 rather than talking about OMDU. If you just want to talk about OMDU, you should make a new thread in the Defenders Lounge. :D

I've played OMDU and at the moment I still feel DD2 is better.

What we'd like to see in DD2?

1. Less pushing of unrealistically high priced nonsense such as skins and pets.  I could understand this if the game was actually playable, but it's not.  That whole carnival nonsense brought nothing to the game apart from an opportunity for in game purchases.  The purchase structure in OMDU is about half the cost of DD2.

2. Focus on fixing server and game play issues rather designing fabulous new characters which will be unplayable if you can't fix the game.

I am not going to write a list of items I'd like to see in DD2 because the community is going blue in the face screaming at TrendyEnt what they want to see, already.

All it takes is for TrendyEnt to listen. 

I know there is a major update to come in April.  I just hope TrendyEnt have listened and it is not just another excuse to push in game purchases. So far, the track record is appalling but it's a chance for the DEVS to redeem our faith  

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I play OMD:U quite a bit, and I like both of the games pretty much equally, but I wouldn't say they are too similar. A similar genre, yes, but the gameplay is quite different. 

I maintain what I said in another thread, that the two could learn from each other, but I'm not going to hold my breath for that. 

DD2 has more of an RPG feel to it, in that you have gear, stats, and you level up your heroes etc. Versus OMD in it has a specific number of traps you're allowed to bring with you, traits, specific guardians and whatnot. 

OMD wins hands down for how rewarding combos, and how lethal your kill box is. DD2 could definitely improve on this aspect to make combat feel gratifying. 

OMD also wins for humor, bar none. DD1 had some pretty funny stuff, and DD2 seemed to have lost anything humorous it had. 

DD2 I like, in that I have actual defenses, and I don't have to babysit them constantly, for the most part, and I'm free to mostly roam at times with little to no worry of things making it past walls (until higher difficulties, mind you..)

DD2 I feel a little more connected to my character, so I do enjoy that aspect of it to a decent degree. 

At the end of the day I play a game to have fun, and slaughter countless enemies, and I can do it in both games, but for pure fun factor, I can't shy away from OMD2, or OMD:unchained. I like feeling powerful at times, and in DD2 I just don't feel powerful at all. Coupled with the fact that gear and pets should feel more fun, similar to DD1, I'm not sure what they are hoping to accomplish with a very watered down version of it. 

This is all for moot though, because I'm not entirely sure what future updates bring, but I hope the Devs at trendy don't get too caught up with worrying about nothing but heroes, and forget to bring the fun back to their game. That's personally what I've been missing. I don't mind grinding certain maps here and there, but I like for the gameplay to feel rewarding. (Combos would go a long ways with this, the system is already in place for DD2, it just needs to be expanded upon, and revisited and tweaked.)

Just my thoughts on it.

TL;DR - I like both games. Both have some goods and bads. Both tweak different interests, but the one thing I could feel DD2 could pick up from OMD (all of the games) is to make combat feel rewarding, and less dull.

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@Tristaris quote:

OMD wins hands down for how rewarding combos, and how lethal your kill box is. DD2 could definitely improve on this aspect to make combat feel gratifying. 

OMD also wins for humor, bar none. DD1 had some pretty funny stuff, and DD2 seemed to have lost anything humorous it had. 

This is all for moot though, because I'm not entirely sure what future updates bring, but I hope the Devs at trendy don't get too caught up with worrying about nothing but heroes, and forget to bring the fun back to their game. That's personally what I've been missing. I don't mind grinding certain maps here and there, but I like for the gameplay to feel rewarding. (Combos would go a long ways with this, the system is already in place for DD2, it just needs to be expanded upon, and revisited and tweaked.)

One of the reasons why I'm excited about the lane resistance removal is that our combo system is viable again. The Abyss Lord has a Skill Sphere that adds drenched to his Skeletal Ramster, and I really hope that we continue to push that for future heroes (and maybe add those to our original four heroes). 

I absolutely agree about the humor in OMD. This is something I'm personally pushing for. DD1 was downright silly -- machine guns, mega chickens, laser beams -- and I would love for us to get silly again. Maybe not those things exactly, but just explore and bring out the whimsy and wonder that was everywhere in DD1.

Trust me when I saw that we're not just focusing on new heroes. Adding fun and adding more rewards are absolutely in our plans this year.

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That's actually really good news to hear, [[4370,users]] because I think I could actually handle a bit more repititon, if there was a bit more humor and such brought back to the game. Mega chickens, turtle on a treadmill, just funny stuff in Dd1, that was a blast to get. 


I'm definitely looking forward to more this year, and hope that things improve on what you mentioned! With resists being gone, I would love to see combos actually be encouraged, and lethal, as well.

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OMDU is a nice game just like DD2 it lack content and have a few issues players havent mastered it yet so each pvp session is lame.
also i totally disagree to compare them because of the great difference in genres and initial gameplay too.
all OMD title is more balanced and simpler than DD ever was and it has more tactic and options for a strategic moves, but still DD is more addictive because of the rich RPG system.
while OMD1-2 was a one time rich experience DD1 offers grinding for hundreds of hours in a good way.

from all the titles right now DD1 is the best at the terms of interest. OMD is a great game but you should play it if you want a different knowledge of how you could create a "defence game" or just to taste something new.
also i wouldnt suggest to play OMDU because singleplayer OMD1-2 is much more flexible.
my formula is:
DD2<DD1 and OMDU<OMD1-2

i dont know why devs prefer to create crap out of a good games. the situation may change after a few years and bunch of updates tho.

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@Tristaris quote:

DD1 had some pretty funny stuff, and DD2 seemed to have lost anything humorous it had. 

At the end of the day I play a game to have fun, and slaughter countless enemies, and I can do it in both games, but for pure fun factor, I can't shy away from OMD2, or OMD:unchained. I like feeling powerful at times, and in DD2 I just don't feel powerful at all. Coupled with the fact that gear and pets should feel more fun, similar to DD1, I'm not sure what they are hoping to accomplish with a very watered down version of it. 

Word.

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@iamisom quote:

I absolutely agree about the humor in OMD. This is something I'm personally pushing for. DD1 was downright silly -- machine guns, mega chickens, laser beams -- and I would love for us to get silly again. Maybe not those things exactly, but just explore and bring out the whimsy and wonder that was everywhere in DD1.

Trust me when I saw that we're not just focusing on new heroes. Adding fun and adding more rewards are absolutely in our plans this year.

We'll take your word for it Emoji_Witherbeast.png

We don't expect you guys to suddenly shower us in funny pets and weapons or employ voice actors (we all know Trendy can't really afford people like Robert McCollum now...maybe in the future?), but if you show us 2-3 funny things per update you'll see how much we appreciate it. Things like that definitely sweeten the time spent grinding or waiting for the next big update to hit. 


@iamisom quote:

One of the reasons why I'm excited about the lane resistance removal is that our combo system is viable again. The Abyss Lord has a Skill Sphere that adds drenched to his Skeletal Ramster, and I really hope that we continue to push that for future heroes (and maybe add those to our original four heroes). 

That's not the point, actually. 

It's not really about the combos working and adding some damage during the match, it's about them being a crucial element of the gameplay, an important mechanic in winning maps and building up your scores. Here are the key points:


  1. OMD franchise combos are way more complex than the ones in DD2 - in DD2, you have only 2 damage element combos, like oil+fire, while in OMD games combos only start being calculated when 3 damage sources are involved (for example tar+spikes+crossbow in early game). On some maps, 13x combos were a thing...in OMD2, on 1 specific map, you could go even higher. 

    Simplistic combos in DD2 are part of the reason why there is no build diversity - they just aren't complex enough to require well-planned, diverse builds. You can just spam geysers and la or flame + oil flask and that's about it...

    Meanwhile, in OMD, this is how planning for combos looks like: 
    "ok so I have the grinder with the bleed, so that's 2, spikes with the poison, another 2, wall trap, 1, tar for +1 in 2 spots, my archers are upgraded with fire damage, so another 2, brimstone upgraded to longer burn for +1, I can either add the mace or the zapper for 1, can't add the floor scorcher it's too op and would kill them before the main killbox tile but I could put it in the back for last damage source on the ogres, flipping mobs back is another 1, I could steal the boom barrels from the ledge there and detonate them on the ogres for another +1, I will alternate my sword and crossbow in the corner of the main killbox tile for possible +2, and I just hope I always remember to refresh my storm cloud!" 

    And this is how building combos looks like in DD2 : put down geysers, put down la, derp.

  2. High combos in OMD games mean high scores. It doesn't apply to DD2, as scoreboards have not been implemented yet. I hope that they will be added, though - there's nothing better for energizing the community and forcing diversity of builds than people trying to push the numbers to the limit. Been there, done that ;) Adding scoreboards affected by combos would also get DD2 some youtube traffic - people just loooove to make highscoring videos.
    Funnily enough, you guys already have one guy who made OMD videos here in the DD2 community.

  3. In OMD games, you get small instant rewards for combos - including special dialogue lines, seeing the flashy "10X" announcements, special sounds, etc. It's great to be able to immediately see your build is working well!

TL;DR   DD2 combos are lackluster compared to OMD combos. While by no means am I saying they should be exact copies of OMD goodness, I still think that DD2 combos need some serious rework and dev love. Combos could be awesome instead of being just...meh. 

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@westenra quote:
  1. High combos in OMD games mean high scores. It doesn't apply to DD2, as scoreboards have not been implemented yet. I hope that they will be added, though - there's nothing better for energizing the community and forcing diversity of builds than people trying to push the numbers to the limit. Been there, done that ;) Adding scoreboards affected by combos would also get DD2 some youtube traffic - people just loooove to make highscoring videos.
    Funnily enough, you guys already have one guy who made OMD videos here in the DD2 community.

This, 1000% this. There is plenty to be worked out but if Trendy can somehow implement leaderboards into DD2 then you will dramatically increase your replay value. DD2 isn't a competitive game at heart but that doesn't mean it shouldn't have the option. 

TL:DR I wanna have high score streams :D

I also agree with Tristaris and what he has said. 

I've not yet tried OMD:U but I will and I'll see what features I like from the game and form my own opinion on OMD:U vs DD2. I've played and finished OMD2 but that was years ago so the memory is fuzzy on specifics.


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I have played OMD 1 - 2 have all the DLCs and 5 skulled almost everything, and played OMD:U in closed beta.   I just can't get into it, OMD:U that is, though I really want to like it.

I like the trap diversity in all OMDs, and am hoping the hero deck changes and resistance changes we seen in the last dev. stream help with diversity here in DD2.

I really like the RPG aspects of DD1/2... improving stats.  Keep it going.

In my opinion, I hope Trendy just keeps up the good work.  We may complain about issues, but I see Trendy listening and I think we can all appreciate that.  It takes time, but nothing seems to be ignored completely.

emote: hat's off

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I played Orcs Must Die a bit a a few years ago, didn't really like it a lot. Might have been more fun if I played with someone else though, can't remember if it had multiplayer.

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At a friend's urging I gave OMD:U a try.  Compared to DD2, both traps and heroes felt very ineffectual.  Traps do decent damage when they actually fire, but even the shortest cooldowns are about 5 seconds (remember when you thought DD2 ballista was slow?).  Enemies can easily get past while the traps are recharging and the game doesn't let you block their path.  You have to stop them with your hero, but even the weakest minions take half a dozen hits to kill.  Abilities have a distinct lack of oomph as well.

Contrast this with DD2 where a decent defense setup can easily take care of a low threat lane with little to no minding (up to NM3 at least).  A single piercing shot from a dps huntress can clear a lane of smaller enemies and leave the larger ones with a significant chunk of their health missing.

Now don't get me wrong, OMD:U is not a bad game.  It plays very differently, but I enjoyed it.  I enjoy DD2 as well, and I think there's room for both games on the market.

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Tried it a bit, level 26 now.


I feel like it takes way more strategy to be good in this game than in dd2.  In dd2 you just put a barricade down, whatever DPS towers and you're gold until NM4.  At which point it gets like... marginally tougher since you can't do frosty + traps + cannons + flamebust + skyguard + everything else strats anymore.  Gotta synergize a bit more


In OMDU it's like... night and day what good barricade placement and good trap combos do for you.  Diversifying damage to get higher combos, lengthening the lane (or making it loop) + merging lanes with smart barricade placement.  

Like, it's crazy how different the winrate gets with good strat vs bad strat

Every game has moments where I go "ah, could have done that better".  Like unchaining at the correct waves, running away to heal mana at the right time, blah blah blah

In dd2 it feels like I can run perfect games much more easily 

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@westerna quote:

Simplistic combos in DD2 are part of the reason why there is no build diversity - they just aren't complex enough to require well-planned, diverse builds. You can just spam geysers and la or flame + oil flask and that's about it...


It is all well and good having complex combos in game if we knew the combos were actually working and did what was intended.  DD2 at the moment doesn't give any confidence that the combos are actually doing what they are supposed to.  And how are we supposed to find out what they are supposed to do?  Ask the gods and hope they respond. That is how it feels in DD2 at present.  But fingers crossed things will improve.

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While I can agree that the traps are different But I think it's the rag dolls, otherwise the game would be much more boring, also the simple thing that makes being a F2P player not have fun is the horrible slow account progression. The way the game is monetized isn't for me. 


What the game does better is the way barricades work.  But that's what makes orcs must die closer to sanctum.  That's either here nor there, but I would like less importance of gear'd walls to balance the game, it made other blockades boring. or other strategies that should be equally effective.


I like the PvP mode, but also despise the progression within and gaining cards, it just makes it a chore for free 2 play players to have fun. 


I Like DD2's art style more

Honestly the whole game seems less fun and it made me appreciate how far this game has come. But also shown that there is something done right about this game. 


I like how there is head-shots in this game. 


The overall player combat isn't nearly as good as Dungeon defenders. 


I also don't like the map design where there is "Kill Boxes" 


there is other things that make me put down Orcs Must Die Unchained while I still retain hope for this game.

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hmm, I think the player combat is leagues better in omdu than in dd2...  half the dd2 roster can't be used well in combat phase lol 


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