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PandynatorDD

@Strategic Revamp - Mana and upgrading

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So with the Trendy team working on a seemingly broad approach of revamping balance.

Do you want to see the balance focus to aim for a general "more mana dropped and more upgrading"?

As it is right now, we get to maybe upgrade a 3-5 defences on a map to star tier. Of course this number will vary depending how you spend your mana.

What I personally would want to see. Is for enemies to drop more mana. Maybe even completely remove chest mana after first wave.

Also combined with this I would want the tower balanced to be more rewarding when deciding to max a tower. At the moment, it is not really efficient to max any tower at all.

What I would want is more focus on upgrading defenses during the waves. With the mana from chests gone, you would need to roam the map more, gather mana and upgrade during waves. (Not so solo friendly on first thoughts, but this can be tweaked)

The way this mana would be distributed should be a tad bit heavier to the side of the players having to upgrade during the waves. As it is now, you get like 80% of you'r mana from the chests, prior to the wave starting. 

So what I would want is for it to be more like 50/50. 50% of the mana dropped in a wave is expected to be used in that wave to have the "best shot" at beating that wave.

To compensate and not be completely fuoldone.pngdragon.pngEmoji_TNT.pngd if you loose defences at the end of a wave, you could introduce "Hardcore mode".

The normal mode would "reward you" a certain % of mana spent on towers that got destroyed. GZ you played "bad" basically, heres a little bit of help. This mana would spawn in the chests to help you fix critical things that went down.

Then maybe have a "Hardcore" mode where you would not get any mana other than from enemies, except the initial starting mana of course.

Feel free to add, change or just don't agree at all;) apprentice_small.png

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I do miss the big bonus of taking down an ogre and having it drop a shed load of mana (DD1), but then again I don't miss the genie and Wolfenstein having everything at three star after the first wave.(DD1)

So am with Pandy on this more mana drop from mobs, maybe even a sphere to increase mana drops a la the gold sphere.

I suppose three star upgrade level with come with the hero level hike, not that we are restricted in how much mana we can collect.

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More mana is always welcomed, anything that helps the player out is fine as long as the rewards and challenges are worth it.

For me personally the thing I'm looking forward to the most is how enemies are going to evolve into a major threat., I'm hoping that this is the first step and that it continues with unique NM specific enemies that don't hold back in what they can do to you and your defenses. That's what I'm most excited about.

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I really would love to see more mana drop. 

Right now it may not be such a good idea, but if they change/introduce NM specific enemies, I would absolutely love to have more mana dropping. I just don't feel like I get *** upgraded at times outside of onslaught. 

I don't think it should be like it was in DD1, but it'd be pretty fun, that by the game ends, you should have a substantial amount of things upgraded at least, enough to make you consider a priority system in what you should be upgrading.

Just my thoughts I suppose. 

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Hey guys! We are def talking about updating the way mana drops in terms of what percentage comes from where. (chests vs enemies) As well as the AMOUNT of mana that you receive. There are a few things to look at while we tackle this variable. 
One thing we want to balance out, is chest mana is instanced per player, while mana dropped from enemies is not. Those players that tend to stay outside of the danger zone sometimes have trouble finding green mana during the phases, so having a good amount come from the green chests helps players those types of players.
That being said, after looking back at DD1 mana distribution, which didn't have any sort of instancing of mana, a majority of the mana for your builds came from the combat phase. This caused more building / repairing / upgrading during the combat phase which felt fun. So we may look into pushing more green mana to pop up in the combat phases to provide some cool moments during the combat phase for those who want to be more active builders. 
One thing we may also look at doing is putting a lot more green mana in the game for players in general, while balancing the DU limit a bit. One of the big balance factors for DD1 maps was the DU limit per map. This was the major restriction to building towers on DD1 maps and doing some tests to see how we can achieve a similar affect with this revamp. One of the factors we want to watch closely in this particular change would be to make sure players who jump into a game, don't feel like they can only place a few towers in a public game. It might not be fun to jump into a match and only build 2 towers with a smaller DU limit. 
The other thing we are looking at is shortening match times. We have done a bit of investigating into shorter more "punchy" waves. This allows players to run a few matches in the time it used to slog through a Nightmare session. We hopefully will be showing off some of these changes on a dev stream soon to give a glimpse at the changes we want to make. 

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@Esorath quote:

The other thing we are looking at is shortening match times. We have done a bit of investigating into shorter more "punchy" waves. This allows players to run a few matches in the time it used to slog through a Nightmare session. We hopefully will be showing off some of these changes on a dev stream soon to give a glimpse at the changes we want to make. 

What would also help this would be having each lane actually be a threat, kinda like how Incursions are now. Having lanes where, come wave 7, you get 60 goblins that could be killed by T1 defenses is kinda lame. I have the fondest memories of a 1000 enemies coming out on the last wave of Glitterhelm, with my wife and I frantically sprinting around that map as the ogre announcement flashed across the screen. 

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Hmmm, one of the things I dislike the most about Tower Defenses is the point you so-often hit where you have literally nothing to put your money into.  Maybe it's not that big of a deal, but always niggles at me when I have full building currency and have to watch further resources go to waste because I have nothing to do with them.  As such, I rather enjoyed the Sanctum mechanic where you could overcharge towers with excess resources.  Not as resource-efficient as the earlier tiered upgrades...but satisfying, fun, and somewhat strategic.


I've no clue how hard something like this would be to implement and whether it'd at all be desirable.  Just musing on something I enjoyed in another TD.

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More mana to three star, four star and may be another upgrade level?

More mana means the mana on floor restriction would have to go, and along with that the dreaded mana disappearing bug.

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Dreizehn in DD1 your repair or build was interrupted if you were hit, in DD2 you can set a repair and go do something else, only death stops your repair. Cast rate was pretty amazing in tandem with someone dropping huge mana from a genie\Wolfenstein hero. You were then "Mana B1tch"

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I'm all for more mana dropping in general. I'd like to take my towers to the upgrade cap but right now I've found that it's more efficient if I take almost everything to rank 2/3.

As [[64852,users]] said make it so there is enough mana to upgrade your towers but have the maps and enemies designed in such a way that you have to think about which towers you prioritize your upgrades on.

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@Fozzie quote:

Dreizehn in DD1 your repair or build was interrupted if you were hit, in DD2 you can set a repair and go do something else, only death stops your repair. Cast rate was pretty amazing in tandem with someone dropping huge mana from a genie\Wolfenstein hero. You were then "Mana B1tch"

I still remember using the Classic Apprenctice staff and having a Genie equipped on my Jester. She made leveling up Towers a joy with that bad ass casting rate of hers. Man I can't wait until she's playable again to see what new bag of tricks she will have at her disposal.

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I like the way mana drops now. I always thought chest mana is mainly for building, and enemy mana for repairing.

thats why its called building and combat phase, or not? :)

changing the way we get mana is ok. but pls not more mana. it would be boring to have every tower maxed on a 5-7 wave map. and were is the strategy when we can upgrade everything?


+ other ways to earn mana. i loved genie+monk hero boost aura

- more mana

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The concern I have with dropping more mana is that we already have problems with disappearing mana / gold It would have to be crystals that give more mana per entity or we could run into some trouble i think.  

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@makzconcepts quote:

The concern I have with dropping more mana is that we already have problems with disappearing mana / gold It would have to be crystals that give more mana per entity or we could run into some trouble i think.  

This is an "A" priority bug for us that we're hoping to nuke from orbit soon.

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@iamisom quote:


@makzconcepts quote:

The concern I have with dropping more mana is that we already have problems with disappearing mana / gold It would have to be crystals that give more mana per entity or we could run into some trouble i think.  

This is an "A" priority bug for us that we're hoping to nuke from orbit soon.

I think a huge QOL enhancement would also be to have the chest vacuum in all of the green mana and drop it around the chest. It is very annoying running up and down the lanes trying to find that last single mana to push you to another 50 threshold for an upgrade.

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Addressing the fact that players don't share picked up green mana. What if they did?


Essentially, when a player picks up green mana, they get a portion of it, scaled to player number. (1 player is 100% of it. 2 players is 50% of it, 3 players is 33%, 4 is 25%) and the rest of it goes into a 'Pool' that gets shared by the chests. So when a player opens their instanced chest, they get their fair share of the green mana, whether they picked it up or not. This means that you can increase how much green mana is dropped by enemies, and reduce the chests; base mana, because all the mana on the floor that gets picked up is shared equally among the players. This lets the more active party members run out to grab mana, repair, upgrade, build etc. mid-wave, while allowing those who don't build during waves, or are locked to a lane because it needs help from a DPS etc. to still get the mana when the wave ends.


Not sure how difficult it would be to implement, but it would certainly let players play their building how they want, and would make teamwork a bit more important, using DPS abilities to create openings for a builder to rush in, grab mana, then jump out to repair stuff or build extra defenses sounds pretty engaging to me.

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@Zylo the Wolfbane quote:

Addressing the fact that players don't share picked up green mana. What if they did?


Essentially, when a player picks up green mana, they get a portion of it, scaled to player number. (1 player is 100% of it. 2 players is 50% of it, 3 players is 33%, 4 is 25%) and the rest of it goes into a 'Pool' that gets shared by the chests. So when a player opens their instanced chest, they get their fair share of the green mana, whether they picked it up or not. This means that you can increase how much green mana is dropped by enemies, and reduce the chests; base mana, because all the mana on the floor that gets picked up is shared equally among the players. This lets the more active party members run out to grab mana, repair, upgrade, build etc. mid-wave, while allowing those who don't build during waves, or are locked to a lane because it needs help from a DPS etc. to still get the mana when the wave ends.


Not sure how difficult it would be to implement, but it would certainly let players play their building how they want, and would make teamwork a bit more important, using DPS abilities to create openings for a builder to rush in, grab mana, then jump out to repair stuff or build extra defenses sounds pretty engaging to me.

This might be interesting...

However, it might be a bad idea when playing in open matches with randoms...

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@Jaromir quote:

"A" priority bug, thats been reported over half a year ago...

just because its NOW and 'A' bug doesnt mean it was ever a 'A' bug.

that bug mainly occured for solo and some 2 player matches. we all know there were more important bugs to fix.

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This has been a starving issue since the beginning of time (which has been patched i think a couple times if I'm not mistaken) with this game and I personally feel it was a huge downfall for the hundreds of thousand players that stopped playing this game out right.


The dynamics of starving mana might seem legit when playing Solo for this "fabricated challenge", however in group play, this is where all the fun is extracted out of the game.


How many times have you had new players join your game and dump mana on the builder because they have no clue what to do with it? Why not play the game and have fun and use the mana as you see fit, oh wait, not enough mana for that type of gameplay ...


Why buy a Mansion with 20 rooms and only use 2-3 rooms your whole life?

Why pay for a TV with Satellite cable and only watch 2-3 channel?

Why buy a Gym membership for a year and only go once a month?

I know these are pretty harsh example, however, this is the reality of this game so far. I understand people will always gravitate to the easier maps of the entire game, however, I feel this has been forced on us through the limitations of Mana really.


The only time Towers in this game see their potential is during Onslaught, you might as well play 25% of the game then, why bother with the rest?


I'm sorry this turned more into a rant than adding to the feedback of this game. Hopefully, my point came across, peace. Summoner_minimap_icon_c.png

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@nuzo quote:

This has been a starving issue since the beginning of time (which has been patched i think a couple times if I'm not mistaken) with this game and I personally feel it was a huge downfall for the hundreds of thousand players that stopped playing this game out right.


The dynamics of starving mana might seem legit when playing Solo for this "fabricated challenge", however in group play, this is where all the fun is extracted out of the game.


How many times have you had new players join your game and dump mana on the builder because they have no clue what to do with it? Why not play the game and have fun and use the mana as you see fit, oh wait, not enough mana for that type of gameplay ...


Why buy a Mansion with 20 rooms and only use 2-3 rooms your whole life?

Why pay for a TV with Satellite cable and only watch 2-3 channel?

Why buy a Gym membership for a year and only go once a month?

I know these are pretty harsh example, however, this is the reality of this game so far. I understand people will always gravitate to the easier maps of the entire game, however, I feel this has been forced on us through the limitations of Mana really.


The only time Towers in this game see their potential is during Onslaught, you might as well play 25% of the game then, why bother with the rest?


I'm sorry this turned more into a rant than adding to the feedback of this game. Hopefully, my point came across, peace. Summoner_minimap_icon_c.png

-> not a starving issue.

-> there is no dynamics of starvig mana.

this is not a thread about new player. dont blame the game when player dont drop mana.


i dont get that mansion parts and the other things.


why is it bad when we only can max out towers during onslought? thats an endless mode, why should we upgrade everything in a 5 wave map..

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