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Let's Answer TE's HD Question


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So TE wants to know what we think about the new hero deck. More specifically, what should happen to towers if we are allowed to change up our deck in build phase. Figured we could all discuss it here to give them a concentrated 'go to' thread. 

My personal opinion is that the towers should stay, but at a price. There will be three tiers of tower strength. 

Tier 1 - App builds Flameburst. App stays for combat phase. Flameburst is 100% damage/HP.
Tier 2 - App builds Flameburst. App goes into deck for combat phase. Flameburst is at 90% damage/HP.
Tier 3 - App builds Flameburst. App gets swapped out of deck entirely for combat phase. Flameburst is at 80% damage/HP.

Thus, we have incentive for both builders and DPSers. DPS during combat brings DPS obviously. Builder during combat brings tower DPS. Strategic choice; can my DPS hero do more damage than 10% or 20% of App's towers?

Another layer of strategic choice; choosing which heroes stay in deck. Say you have 5 builders and one DPS. You have to boot 2 builders out of deck for combat. Which ones can afford the 20% hit? Waller? Builder with least amount of towers on map? 

In any case, those are my thoughts. On to you guys. What do you guys think about how this situation could be handled?

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For sure the towers need to stay or the hero deck changes are no more than a QoL for co-op.  While I don't know if your numbers are on point I do like the concept that having your builder out can effect as much change as a dps hero being out. That right there is a true example of play as you want. I also agree there should be a bit more negative for the total swapping. this gives you utility for a price. It makes you think is it worth that tower at a cost to have. The interesting point I think that should be made is, in order to bring solo as close to co-op as we can the negative percentages should be reduced if you are solo to offset the fact that you could four man with absolutely zero negative percentages to your towers. In effect with the future concepts of making towers have pros and cons in the maps it could increase the disparage of solo and co-op for this very reason.

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Personally, and this is just me, towers should stay in the deck.

I touched on this in another thread, but I'll type it out here for the sake of it being a thread dedicated just to this topic.

I place a wall on my squire, and swap over to my huntress. He's still in the combat deck right now, so right now, his walls and damage are getting a 10% buff.

I decide I need something else, so I remove the squire out of my combat deck entirely, and I lose that 10% buff, but at least the tower stays.

I'd prefer to have perks to bringing something, than have such harsh penalties. 

Honestly, i'd rather see something like this, with penalties to repair costs being slightly increased, or something along those lines, for the negatives.

Obviously the % numbers are just placeholders, and I'm not even sure how it would work out but it's something I'd rather see, than to be punished for it.



OFF TOPIC: Can we please get more green mana during waves? By the end of the match, I feel like I should have things starred, you know? Not this, measly one or two things might be starred, and the rest is at tier 2-3. 

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Towers should definitely stay when a character is removed from the deck. I don't have much of an opinion on whether or not towers from characters not active/in the deck should be less effective than those that are active/in the deck, but the towers should stay.

The DD1 way of handling it worked pretty well minus the issue of towers losing health from switching back and forth between characters. When swapping out characters, tower health should change to remain the same percentage so that, for example, a full health tower remains full health as you swap characters (or gear since changing gear causes the same issue). (This isn't a major concern, but it would be nice.)

Going with what I have said elsewhere, shared experience and loot options do not, IMO, make up for the lack of freedom a limited deck imposes. If the towers don't stick around - if I can not use towers from all of my characters, however many I might have - I won't be sticking around either.

That said, some of my hope for the future of this game has been restored. The idea of taking the deck and changing it from a pointless limitation to a beneficial feature brings me joy.

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Let's say you have your heroes in hero deck, all 4 slots unlocked upon getting to lv 50 and then you have your character selection outside of your hero deck that you are limited due to that the deck could only support up to 4

with the new HD implementation, where you are allowed to swap in/out of your characters as many times as you want during build phases and once combat phase starts, the players are locked to their heroes in deck but are able to quick swap heroes during combat via F1-F4

what trendy is asking is, should the towers / the passives that affect said tower stay or should they disappear

what i think it should be done is: Let the towers stay, let the passives stay. 

This is why people hated on the HD in the first place. The players are being limited because are are only allowed up to the amount of heroes the hero deck could support. Consequently. being able to keep your existing towers with existing passives while being able to change our your deck completely eliminates said limitation on players.


Here's what I think, adding bonus for having your builders stay in deck for allowing bonus buff to your towers is not necessary. But having a builder out during combat as you are playing, it should add more bonus since having a builder out during combat in nm4 inc is basically suicide.

Another thing is that, they could implement where the player have a limited amount of times they are allowed to swap in/out characters and once the limit is reached then the HD is locked forever until you finish the game.

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 Personally I'd like to see 100% effectiveness for all heroes in the deck, with the reduced effectiveness for heroes out of the deck. (70%) I don't want to see a reduction to a builder unless they leave the deck, because I don't think you should be incentivized to stay on builders, that just detracts from the action part of the game.

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A quick copy/paste from the other thread. I will go into more detail when I have them worked out :D

Towers from a character that are removed from the hero deck should still stay in the game but should be subject to some penalty. This would ensure that you wouldn't fill your deck with 4 DPS just before the build phase.

Or in contrast to the above

All characters that are in the hero deck during the combat phases get buffs to their placed towers however I'd worry that maps and difficulties would be balanced around having these buffs which is why  I'd propose a penalty instead of a buff in this case (Note I'm normally against penalties) 

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I'll reword what I said, about a penalty or not if they are in your combat deck or not.

A penalty wouldn't bother me too much if it weren't too harsh of one. But if it nerfs it too much, there'd be no reason to place it. That said, this is a perfect time to explore the benefits of keeping builders in the deck too, alongside a DPS.

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@Tristaris quote:

I'll reword what I said, about a penalty or not if they are in your combat deck or not.

A penalty wouldn't bother me too much if it weren't too harsh of one. But if it nerfs it too much, there'd be no reason to place it. That said, this is a perfect time to explore the benefits of keeping builders in the deck too, alongside a DPS.

Exactly on point. This is a very good time to give builders some reason to be out so that players that like playing as a builder and not DPS get to contribute to the fight equally.

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@Chappyy quote:

Exactly on point.

@Tristaris quote:

This is a perfect time to explore the benefits of keeping builders in the deck too, alongside a DPS.


I still contend that TE should bring back casting rate. One of my favorite roles in DD1 was overcharge/casting rate/movement speed App. Could repair an entire map's worth of towers before my Squire buddy could repair his wall :D That this game has boiled down to damage and damage only in terms of what roles we get to choose from on the battlefield is boring.

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Something like this might make sense ...

Tower of builder that has been removed from deck = 5-10% penalty

Tower of builder that is in the deck but is not in combat = 0% penalty or buff

Tower of builder that is in the deck and is also in combat = 5-10% buff

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Honestly guys, penalties or bonuses is just too much.  


We have to allow for the passive to remain active otherwise nothing really changed.  Adding a false layer of balance over the top of this for active hero deck builders of either a bonus or penalty adds another layer of balance issues that would require time from TE id rather see on useful stuff.  Just make the HD effect only who is getting xp and xp related bonuses but allow the active vs benched heroes work like DD1.

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I love the idea and, totally, towers should stay.  Got no issue with penalties for characters swapped out of deck but, not really necessary in my opinion as only those in deck get loot or xp etc.  Certainly from my point of view it would be great to swap out a tower guy for a dps when soloing.

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i think flat penalties and bonuses like damage/hp+ across the board is lazy developing tbh


Maybe each class has 4 teirs of "bonuses" to hero/towers and for each one in your deck you get bonuses in that tier and the ones before it.  So it'd be like a customizable skill tree with the hero deck.  Maybe specific bonuses that would be synergistic with certain towers/playstyles more than others.  

Maybe 4 huntresses in the deck means you get W X Y Z bonuses and that tier 4 Z bonus is some chance% to do an extra 25% DP damage per attack which would be crazy on fast attacking towers but not so good on slow attacking ones

where as say... 4 monks in the deck give A B C D bonuses and that tier 4 D bonus is really good with slow attacking towers because it's some kind of "every second of not firing this tower's damage increases by 25% (exponentially)"


Obviously those numbers are super OP given the current state of the game but you guys get the idea.  I'd MUCH MUCH prefer a system that at least had a couple hours of thought put into it that makes the hero deck special and innovative vs some arbitrary "-X%, +Y%" bonus to dmg/hp if the builder is in the deck

what do you guys think?

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Towers stay

If we have buffs and or penalties we just persist with the meta as all power gamers will never give up an advantage willingly.

So I say no buff no penalty just freedom and diversity.

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@Professor_Valconian quote:

Something like this might make sense ...

Tower of builder that has been removed from deck = 5-10% penalty

Tower of builder that is in the deck but is not in combat = 0% penalty or buff

Tower of builder that is in the deck and is also in combat = 5-10% buff

Oh... exactly what I wanted to suggest. ^^


@Aheadatime quote:


@Chappyy quote:

Exactly on point.

@Tristaris quote:

This is a perfect time to explore the benefits of keeping builders in the deck too, alongside a DPS.


I still contend that TE should bring back casting rate. One of my favorite roles in DD1 was overcharge/casting rate/movement speed App. Could repair an entire map's worth of towers before my Squire buddy could repair his wall :D That this game has boiled down to damage and damage only in terms of what roles we get to choose from on the battlefield is boring.

Casting rate was fun next to speed stats. No idea why they removed these cool things. I also hope they get rid of these skill point soft caps. People are wasting skill points without even knowing.

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I agree with your system Aheadatime, it`s a nice compromise, I`d only tweak one thing: never give penalty, we know it`s a source of outrage from WoW`s rest bonus. Give bonuses for staying in, not penalty for taking out. Same thing, different feeling.

Also have to stress what Chappy said, bear solo in mind, it needs different numbers to be on par with coop.

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I think bonuses and penalties if any, are things that could be toyed around with once the mechanics are in place. I think the big thing now for me is over stressing the need for the towers to remain or in my opinion what's the point? I also think of the list they showed us the swapping in build phase should be moved up in priority. I honestly think that feature will bring back more players.


-Edit to add-

I really think this is one of those decisions that should not be left till later. This decision is something a lot of players are hinging around about weather or not to stay or go. The fact of Elliot's response to that one question alone gave me a bad feeling period. No one is asking to to commit to hard numbers about bonuses or penalties but I think you need to make a game play mechanical decision. Yes we are going to keep the towers and figure out how to make them work or No that's not something we want to do.

I am going to be overly !@#$ if you string me along for months and go welp we decided not keep towers persistent. You thought I was negative before? That would probably force someone to ban me before it's all done.

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I loved DD1 for the complexity. The builds that you would see got so nuanced and specialized. I really like this style of play, especially since heroes only have 1-2 useful towers apiece: apprentice, fire & freeze, squire cannonball & wall monk lightning & skyguard (except huntress which is god tier in this game). On top of tower imbalance, gear passives further limit the towers a builder can lay down effectively (is my squire cannonball squire or wall squire?). I think hero deck was intended to be challenging or provide incentive to play in groups, but for me it's just boring. I say if solo player wants to grind 12 heroes to max level and get gear for all of them, then they should be able to do so and use them without penalty. This doesn't really make or break the game for me, since I do play w/ friends. I just prefer more freedom. 

tl;dr @#$# yeah towers should stay. Not only no penalty for switch, but could just get rid of HD. 

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@Chappyy quote:

I think bonuses and penalties if any, are things that could be toyed around with once the mechanics are in place. I think the big thing now for me is over stressing the need for the towers to remain or in my opinion what's the point? I also think of the list they showed us the swapping in build phase should be moved up in priority. I honestly think that feature will bring back more players.


-Edit to add-

I really think this is one of those decisions that should not be left till later. This decision is something a lot of players are hinging around about weather or not to stay or go. The fact of Elliot's response to that one question alone gave me a bad feeling period. No one is asking to to commit to hard numbers about bonuses or penalties but I think you need to make a game play mechanical decision. Yes we are going to keep the towers and figure out how to make them work or No that's not something we want to do.

I am going to be overly !@#$ if you string me along for months and go welp we decided not keep towers persistent. You thought I was negative before? That would probably force someone to ban me before it's all done.

Pretty much.

You want this game to survive?, give the freedom back to the player and let them choose how they want to build. If you make it that tower's disappear or you have a severe penalty for switching out characters on the fly then R.I.P DD2. 

Look at the overwhelming positive response you recieved from your last dev stream, you have players who aren't playing your game excited again and that's for the simple fact that maybe, just maybe they can play the game with out it feeling stale.

It's your game ofc, but I know I wouldn't want to jeopardize that by adding penalties and removal of towers when switching out. 

People will move on if they are't having fun. 

It comes down to how indepth you want the game to be, if it's meant for the casual audience then well done you have achieved that already.

However if you are wanting to target the end game hardcore crowd then give them something to strive for and better loot isn't the answer. You need to be constantly challenged and have something unique to go for.

Enter DD1 again, because I know you guys love hearing about it.

In DD1 you had multiple things you could do. Pets were locked on a specific stage, weapons were specifc to challenges and certain maps. However they upped the anti and implemented the Diamond pet. For those that didn't know Winter Wonderland would give you coal for completing the map, when you acquired enough coal you would recieve a diamond.

I also want to mention fun events like easter egg hunting. You guys remember how crazy and fun that was?

10 normal eggs got you the bunny squire outfit and I think it was 36 mega eggs got you the Mega Chicken.

Back to end game though. If you give freedom to the player yes the game will be easier, but that's when you just have to give NM it's balls back and challenge end game players with NM specific enemies again.

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