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KnowsNoLimits

Thoughts on the New Hero Deck change

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well i just watched the dev stream. the hero deck i noticed that they said that they may try the swap toons in and out but it isn't going in any time soon so still limited to only 4. The exp shared over the bunch doesn't do any thing for those of us that have 4 toons. yes I saw the graphs but are those active players over all I mean of course people will have atleast 1 toon they join checked it out saw what it was about and may not have ever picked it up again or quit because of the hero deck or some other reason. so I don't see it as solid data to go off of.


the abyss lord well what can I say they are bring WOW to DD2 I mean it looks just like the undead lock or mage. the shoulder pads have that WOW look to it I mean it even has that WOW feel to the way it moves. I was hoping for something more original.  over all good work but the hero deck is still killing it for me.


edit some spelling errors its late and I just got home to check it out.

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@KnowsNoLimits quote:

I just can't stand people that white knight a game which has major issues and if you dare criticize their precious game they get all defensive. If all we had were WK's this game would never evolve. I'm not going to let the casuals turn this game into another DDE.

Which is where this game was headed.

I'm also going to do everything in my power to give out constructive criticism which further enhances end game. As it is now end game is a joke with no staying power.

It's fair to say this game has no true end game atm, at most you spin a wheel to min/max your stats.

You want end game? you need a constant challenge, you need rewards worth going for, you need variety in builds which can be further adapted to new character releases. 

I keep saying it NM is a shell of it's former self. This isn't acceptable in anyway and I want to see it return to it's former glory.

Hell you remember Sharken specifically. I say job well done if the thought of that enemy still gives you grief.

NM specific enemies are what made Nightmare amazing. You have your trash mob and then you had elite enemies. Sharken, Djinn, Spiders, Goblin Copters fall into this category.

All Trendy has to do now is give NM it's balls back.

I 100% agree. There is no endgame threat right now and Sharken do still give me grief, hate them with a passion. With the removal of resistances and a revamp of both defences and enemies hopefully we will be seeing a few of our old favourites reworked and added into DD2

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@gigazelle quote:

The hero deck changes do sound enticing, but there are some major concerns I have:

  • If we can change our deck around during build phase and actively swap between 4 heroes during combat phase, what's the point of even having a hero deck at all? What's the 'strategic limitation' the hero deck is supposed to fulfill?
  • If 'strategic limitation' isn't the aim of the hero deck, what exactly is its purpose?
  • If 'strategic limitation' is the aim of the hero deck, how are the changes going to bring solo and co-op into parity?
Since the game is 100% catered to one-trick ponies, the current proposal sounds like I'm going to be building an entire hero for each defense in the game if there's no limit to the number of heroes I can bring to a match. If there is a limit, the proposed changes still doesn't bring solo and co-op on the same page.

In short, to ease my concerns with the hero deck, I would want the following questions answered:

  • What exactly is the purpose of the hero deck?
  • Will the new hero deck mechanics be equal between solo and co-op play?

Yes These are the real questions. While I am excited about the prospects we will need to see the product first.

Let me take a shot at your answers and add some additions to what I would want to know with those questions.

What exactly is the purpose of the hero deck? This question actually changes with the new changes since we have a fair idea of what the purpose is right now. What is the purpose of it remaining is more along the lines with the changes. My simple guess is to much money is invested in it so they have to figure out how to incorporate it.

It would seem from the limited information we have that it's purpose has actually been reduced from a major feature to a minor feature to give some QoL EXP bonus and a limit to the new feature of hotswapping heroes in a battle phase. This is totally on the assumption that towers will remain once a hero is removed from the deck. If those towers do not remain then the hero deck is nothing more than a QoL change for co-op that allows random players to create the perfect deck before a game starts.


Will the new hero deck mechanics be equal between solo and co-op play?  This is another what if but here it is. If the towers don't remain it will actually make the equality worse than it is now. Even if the towers remain there would have to be a look at any imposed bonuses or restrictions to have them balanced for being solo. If they decide lets say to allow towers to stay with a -10% penalty if a hero is removed from the deck then it is possible that a solo player would have to incur penalties that a co-op group could avoid. So in this case they would have to look at those numbers and a reduction for solo play.


Basically for me it all hinges on that one decision now. Will towers stay if a hero is removed from the deck. If the answer is no then I am right back where I was before this stream aired. For the sake of the game I hope this time they try this option first instead of not trying it.



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@KnowsNoLimits quote:

The Hero Deck was initially used to group random together so everyone would build. In reality that didn't happen at all, what happened was the leeches came out of hiding and got carried through end game thanks to the amazing match making system we have. The Hero Deck only worked with a co-ordinated group who could pre-plan their strategy before hand and it made solo play even more limited.

However the game was hemorrhaging players and the HD was one of the main contributors to this. What was marketed as "strategic limitation" was marketing BS to sell Hero slots. Yet it bit them in the ass when people weren't buying skins and were growing tired of the same boring meta.

Common sense would tell you limiting you to only 4 characters is a very bad idea. Especially coming off the successful free to experiment however you want, but you are still limited by DU gameplay no one asked to be changed.


Really good summary of the reasons behind the creation and failure of the hero deck as it currently exists.

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@Professor_Valconian quote:


@KnowsNoLimits quote:

The Hero Deck was initially used to group random together so everyone would build. In reality that didn't happen at all, what happened was the leeches came out of hiding and got carried through end game thanks to the amazing match making system we have. The Hero Deck only worked with a co-ordinated group who could pre-plan their strategy before hand and it made solo play even more limited.

However the game was hemorrhaging players and the HD was one of the main contributors to this. What was marketed as "strategic limitation" was marketing BS to sell Hero slots. Yet it bit them in the ass when people weren't buying skins and were growing tired of the same boring meta.

Common sense would tell you limiting you to only 4 characters is a very bad idea. Especially coming off the successful free to experiment however you want, but you are still limited by DU gameplay no one asked to be changed.


Really good summary of the reasons behind the creation and failure of the hero deck as it currently exists.

yes i agree completely but if resist wasnt in the game to begin with this limitation would not have been so bad

sorry to say they needed to rush out removal of resist and hero deck changes 5 days ago a new hero is fine but they could have at least gained some players back by crushing the main meta easily with these changes now it seems we are waiting an entire month for a hero im not even sure i want or even care about and all it did was make more important things take longer


this game is now one slot below apb reloaded (a game i played 4000 hours of) which hasnt even had a actual content patch in 2 years and just gives empty hope and makes new money grab reskins every 2 weeks or so

needless to say they have been struggling for years now are likely down to 1-2 coders a community manager and likely some guy who keeps the servers going.......


this being said i think not focusing on getting players back asap to make a hero was just a bad choice that and 2 months of waiting for the main issue to be resolved doesnt help at all i understand this is a small dev team but this isnt stopping another game i play robocraft from pumping out content like crazy for a few years now (im at over 3000 hours in this game so they are obviously doing something right)


i really dont meen to be critical and i know its not really fair to compare one game to another my review for this game remains  positive and even if i stop/stopped playing it really is a great game and has that nice calmness to it and then plenty of action (which is great :D )

i also get that a new hero will bring players back but all it meens to me is not wanting to play for another month so i think it was a bad choice to out on the top of the list when other changes could have been made much easier and likely in far less time

and i do know you guys are really trying hard and doing allot at once but maybe this is the issue  :D just saying :D


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oh and i want my wyvern tokens MAN this monthly actually im just not going to do it ....... last uber tower i need is cannons uber and i was hoping to have this before the next month but the end is nigh and the sky is falling and im not wanting to play 175-245 rounds (super win bonus!!!!) and collect 1000 tickets for a admission pass when i really want all the ubers instead :D

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The possibility of the swapping heroes in and out during build phases does bring up an interesting take on a hardcore mode. Imagine if during any combat phase a hero dies, boom, can't use them for the rest of the match. I think that would be a nice challenge, especially if the dark elf warrior comes back.


I'm still hesitant about future balance issues with swapping in and out. It worked fine in DD1 since you paid for the game initially. However, how will they balance the gameplay if one player sticks with their original four slots but I've purchases five additional? Will the game be a cakewalk to me since I can bring a specialized character for more defenses, or will the four slot player give up halfway through the game because it was balanced with the free player in mind? 

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@iamisom quote:


@Zuqual quote:

I didn't catch the stream.  What happens if you build a tower with character A and then remove character A from your deck?

If the tower remains, then the deck is just about limiting how many characters you can play during combat.

If the tower is removed then this change helps groups while doing nothing for solo play.

Those are the details we're going to figure out. What do you think? Should the towers stay? Should they disappear? Should we give bonuses or penalties for keeping certain heroes in your deck? This is the kind of feedback and idea generation that we're hoping to see from the community.

If the towers remain, I think, it would satisfy the solo players who hate the hero deck so much (like me) squire_small.png

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@Oevaag quote:

If the towers remain, I think, it would satisfy the solo players who hate the hero deck so much (like me) squire_small.png

But at that point, the hero deck might as well not exist at all.

  • If both solo and co-op play can bring as many defenses from heroes they want without penalty, the hero deck becomes nothing more than an XP-sharing device where you have 6+ builders, use them all during build phase, then swap to your DPS and 3 low-levels for shared XP. As more heroes are introduced, players are going to pick the single most-powerful defense from each hero and use it. We'd be right back to cookie cutter builds, just like DD1's archer+mage+buff beam+auras+gas.
  • If you can't use defenses from heroes outside your deck, then once again single player and co-op are still disparate and unfair, which is currently the biggest flaw of the hero deck.
This right here is a 100% paradox. In fact, a per-person hero deck is always going to be a paradox merely because of the existence of solo and co-op play.

If the hero deck was transitioned to a defense-type team deck, I could see that working a lot better. All players could freely swap between whatever heroes they'd like, but only be able to build defenses from 4 different heroes as an entire team, I would see that as the best way to accomplish the purpose of the hero deck while ensuring solo and co-op are fair. We wouldn't even need lane resistances, since the strategy would be what 16 defenses you'd use as opposed to picking from magic/physical defense pools. With a team-based hero deck, Instead of cherry-picking the best defenses from all heroes like in DD1, there would be some give/take strategy. As more heroes were introduced, finding neat combinations between any 4 heroes would be super-fun experimentation.

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@Oevaag quote:


@iamisom quote:


@Zuqual quote:

I didn't catch the stream.  What happens if you build a tower with character A and then remove character A from your deck?

If the tower remains, then the deck is just about limiting how many characters you can play during combat.

If the tower is removed then this change helps groups while doing nothing for solo play.

Those are the details we're going to figure out. What do you think? Should the towers stay? Should they disappear? Should we give bonuses or penalties for keeping certain heroes in your deck? This is the kind of feedback and idea generation that we're hoping to see from the community.

If the towers remain, I think, it would satisfy the solo players who hate the hero deck so much (like me) squire_small.png

It would.  And if they don't then it would change exactly nothing for solo players.

That's why this news about the hero deck is no news at all.  What we've learned is that they are open to characters being swapped in combat, and that's about it.  Outside of that, they want to change the hero deck but they aren't sure whether that change is going to mean nothing, or complete freedom, or any position in between. 

Reading this thread, I feel like I'm going crazy (or am the only sane one left).  It's like we had been complaining for a year that the game only came in grey.  And then in a much anticipated announcement they explained that they where going to change the color.  It might come in white.  Or it might come in black.  Or maybe it would come in some color in between, and could we please provide some feedback.  And then everyone is super happy about the announced change even though the only news is that there will be change.  We already knew that.

Hopefully it isn't just a stalling tactic.  Hopefully the feedback is more important than, say, the feedback on speed and range was.  Lest the post be only ***ing, here's some feedback:

Swapping characters during combat is neat, but not healthy for the game.  It will be immersion breaking in ways that I don't think people are anticipating and will remove what little attachment we have for the older versions of the beloved DD1 characters.  It will remove a good bit of required planning.  I also worry about Trendy building well rounded characters in an environment where any momentary weakness in a character can be completely compensated for by immediately switching to a different character.  It does, however, do a good job of incentivizing the purchase of narrowly constructed characters who exist only for a combat specific niche.




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@KnowsNoLimits quote:

You never played DD1 did you?

I can honestly say that this is the first time I have ever been legitimately offended on the Dungeon Defenders forums, like, ever. But I suppose that's my fault, as not everyone knows that I still play DD1 and am developing new content for you guys. 

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Shuffling the deck during the build phase will only work if the towers and stats persist. Any alteration will render the mechanic useless. Also, I really could care less about hot swapping during combat. 

Once build-phase shuffling is introduced I'll start playing again. 

Or just raise the limit to 6. That will allow for a range of towers and possibly more than 1 dps hero. I think we can all live that. 

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@gigazelle quote:


@KnowsNoLimits quote:

You never played DD1 did you?

I can honestly say that this is the first time I have ever been legitimately offended on the Dungeon Defenders forums, like, ever. But I suppose that's my fault, as not everyone knows that I still play DD1 and am developing new content for you guys. 

Yup my bad.

You came across not understanding why it worked in DD1 and I felt I needed to explain it to you like some new comer. I haven't been keeping up to date with who's been developing what in DD1 and I have no prior knowledge of your gaming history. Congrats in keeping the game alive.

There is no way you should be offended by my words though, I didn't put you down in any way and simply explained why having the freedom with you want to build is not a bad thing as you are still limited by DU. The challenge comes from the enemies.

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I personally want to see some support-role characters that build defenses but are also helpful to the team during combat without needing dps focused stats. I hate having seperate characters for building and combat and having the former rarely seen by players because you only see it on the first or seond build phases.

Also right now hybrid builds are literally impossible past like campaign and regular freeplay, because of the locking of items to only tower or only hero stats and the low number of core stats on an item. In DD1, while it was difficult because finding an item with every stat requires immense luck, it was possible to do well through most of the game (except the latest DLC maps on nightmare) with hybrid-built characters if you had the patience. Here it's flat out impossible once you pass the early game.

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