Jump to content

Thoughts on the New Hero Deck change


Recommended Posts

Not that he needs it but I vouch for Chappy. Nobody is more outspoken than he is against the hero deck. Some come close but he is the most consistently vocal ... with solid reasoning ... against the hero deck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 63
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic


@Zuqual quote:

I'm a little surprised by how mollified people seem.  If none of the details of how the system will work have been ironed out then this news is no news at all.  The possibilities for solo play range all the way from even less restrictive than DD1 to effectively no change from the current implementation.

I suppose I'm a cynical ***, but this reads to me like a stalling tactic in the guise of feedback solicitation.

I have to disagree a bit here. They gave, for the first time clear ideas of what they will be doing with the hero deck. The only major details that I think are left out are the long range details. However the principle points were released to us which in the past never happened. I also Have a rough idea of what is going to be done in what phase of development. While I am still a bit apprehensive about the portion I want to see changed (the swapping of heroes in the deck during build phase) I do have an idea of what is going to happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Chappyy quote:


@offroadxpipe quote:


@Chappyy quote:However we need to be realists for a second. If I can swap out for all my towers in the build phase and I can swap out for my four current deck heroes in combat I think this is way to much power. I like both ideas and I think both ideas bring a great dynamic but together might be a bit over the top. I think an acceptable compromise would be hero deck swapping during the combat phase and hero deck changes during the build phase with the caveat that any hero removed from your active deck suffers a x% reduction to that heroes towers on the field. This gives you more access to tower builds while not giving you total power. Yes I realize this still means the solo players are not completely on par with co-op teams. Even more so now that the co-op teams have the ability to mix and match their hero decks with other players in the match. It is however better than nothing.

How would this result in too much power? All the hero deck limitations do is limit creativity, potential profits, and the solo player only. You state too much power; however, a multiplayer group can already bring 16 possible combinations of hero’s to the table if needed? Yet, for some reason, everyone still uses the same identical setup (Frosty, Huntress traps, and an occasional aura if someone happens to bring a monk). Plus in multi-player, four players can switch to their DPS to cover lanes after they set towers/trap (in solo we only get one DPS to work with, so more possible towers would help in that regard with balancing the difficulty). BTW, too much power will/can always be limited by the DU.

Being limited to four characters in solo is a terrible restriction and decision to an otherwise great game. I don’t know why they have all these passives for different build types, but only one viable setup for NM4 anyway? Why do they have all these costumes when you can really only run one DPS huntress or Apprentice(mostly huntress)? I have other responsibilities and can’t always be in a multi-player group when I play. Why have these types of limits on players? It is not like a Blaze Balloon, Poison Dart, or Flame Thrower build is going to be any more efficient than traps and frosties anyway. But at-least it allows us to do something different than the same old stale/boring meta every game.

I have bought 10 additional hero slots and built several different characters (I realized now that they are all useless), however, I can’t really use them unless I want to play NM3 and lower solo. And if you do take something outside the current meta into a multiplayer match, people flip out and demand to build the current meta. You don't agree, they will just vote kick you out of the game.

This current setup just doesn’t make sense to me? They sell hero slots, but you can only use four of them at a time? If that limitation was removed, seems more people would potentially buy more hero slots so they could build different characters to experiment and play with. I know that was my intentions. But hearing the dev stream today doesn't sound promising for solo. Sounds like to me, we will just be able to switch on the fly. Which results in same solo limits as before for solo players.

I have enjoyed and supported this game up to this point (about 2 months now), but these restrictions are really killing it for me. Playing every single game the same way is getting old. I have maxed out and upgraded the gear, run through all the maps countless times. Nothing really left do now because I can not really switch it up or experiment in solo with the games current restrictions. Forcing multiplayer on people isn’t a good business decision IMO.  Why limit solo players? We are customers too that support the game.

I know I will not be spending another dime on DD2 hero slots, bags, or costumes until restrictions like this are removed from solo play. I never played DD1, but from what I understand these limitations do not exist there and the game allowed you to be creative. I will likely just pick up the complete pack for that game when it goes on sale again, so I can enjoy a nice solo experience.

I actually laughed when I read this. As your first post I get attacked about the hero deck being restrictive? Welcome to the club I am probably one of the biggest oppositionists to the hero deck on the forums. Nothing you said is not something I have already said. I don't think you read my post fully or you understand what I was trying to say.

If they do allow you to swap your hero deck on the build phase then that should be sufficient. That would make it exactly what we had in DD1 with a little bit more in the form of bonuses.


I don't know why you think I was attacking you?.  I may have even quoted the wrong person since this forum clumps quotes from everyone together. I apologize if I misunderstood your post and it was certainly not meant as an insult to you or targeted at any particular individual. I was just expressing how I feel about he current restrictions of the game. I hope the devs here listen to the community. I normally read and post over on reddit/r/dd2 and the majority there seem to dislike these HD restrictions too. At first, the game is fun and draws you in, but then you realize the current limitations with the HD really hurts the potential this game could have otherwise.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To all my fellows anti-HD, I think we are celebrating a bit too early... TE hasn't reveal all the details regarding the new HD yet. They might decide to make it so towers from heros we remove of the deck get removed, resulting in almost no change from now. Even if we can switch heros during combat phase, switching to a builder (talking about solo play where you bring 1 dps and 3 builders, assuming the possibility where the builder's defenses get removed when we remove him from HD) is just useless. 

Of course, there is still the possibility where the builder's defenses will stay even if he gets removed from the HD, which will be great and solve most of the problems. However, until we official get news about it, we shouldn't take it as granted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@iamisom quote:


@Tristaris quote:

The way I took it (and I could be entirely wrong) was while during build phases, you can essentially switch anything in and out. During the combat phase, you'll be locked into 4 characters however, but still be able to quick swap between those 4.

I might be wrong, though, and hope Trendy confirms it.

This change I'm totally fine with, and sounds like a fantastic compromise.

This is the current idea, but keep in mind that the finer details are still to be determined and are subject to change. We're going to play around and see what's fun. We want to see a lot of feedback about how you feel about this and what you're cool ideas are on this change. 

I believe this is an excellent idea for Single Player for balancing, but for multiplayer the swap during combat should be disabled.

It is really unnecessary for multiplayer and it lowers the difficulty of the game way below what it should be.


I'm still watching the dev stream with my unsigned NDA contract in my hands trying to take it all in before I go any further with anything. Ill try to contribute some on the HD more when I get caught up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@dreamanime quote:

I think KnowsNoLimit is first place and Chappy second when it comes to anti Hero deck. :d

I don't think so, maybe we are tied but look at this way. I am like Robert De Niro in Casino I am firm but diplomatic, lets make a deal when it comes to the hero deck. While KnowsNoLimits is full on Joe Pesci I'm gonna baseballbat the hero deck upside the head if you don't expletive remove the expletive hero deck right expletive now!


-edit- I just realized the age group around here might not even know what I am talking about. Oh well Elliot will know ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@GreenDragon quote:


@iamisom quote:


@Tristaris quote:

The way I took it (and I could be entirely wrong) was while during build phases, you can essentially switch anything in and out. During the combat phase, you'll be locked into 4 characters however, but still be able to quick swap between those 4.

I might be wrong, though, and hope Trendy confirms it.

This change I'm totally fine with, and sounds like a fantastic compromise.

This is the current idea, but keep in mind that the finer details are still to be determined and are subject to change. We're going to play around and see what's fun. We want to see a lot of feedback about how you feel about this and what you're cool ideas are on this change. 

I believe this is an excellent idea for Single Player for balancing, but for multiplayer the swap during combat should be disabled.

It is really unnecessary for multiplayer and it lowers the difficulty of the game way below what it should be.


I'm still watching the dev stream with my unsigned NDA contract in my hands trying to take it all in before I go any further with anything. Ill try to contribute some on the HD more when I get caught up.

IMO, it should be allowed, regardless of single player or multiplayer.

The difficulty is limited by the DU limit, and not so much what characters people are on, and think it's not going to hurt multiplayer one single bit. Multiplayer doesn't get any more DU or anything game breaking and think it's perfectly fine. 

Just my opinion, of course!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The opinion is fine, but I've always loved how everyone could pick a role to fill during combat phase. It had a very team-based, completing eachother sort of dynamic.


When everyone becomes everything with no consequence at all the composition of heroes seems less meaningful.

I disagree that DU is the big balancing factor. What about the Ability/DPS heroes that dont use DU at all?

Theres less/no consequence for everyone to swap to DPS in the combat phase rather than being locked into 1-2 builders and some DPS. That is a huge difficulty drop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Tristaris quote:


@GreenDragon quote:


@iamisom quote:


@Tristaris quote:

The way I took it (and I could be entirely wrong) was while during build phases, you can essentially switch anything in and out. During the combat phase, you'll be locked into 4 characters however, but still be able to quick swap between those 4.

I might be wrong, though, and hope Trendy confirms it.

This change I'm totally fine with, and sounds like a fantastic compromise.

This is the current idea, but keep in mind that the finer details are still to be determined and are subject to change. We're going to play around and see what's fun. We want to see a lot of feedback about how you feel about this and what you're cool ideas are on this change. 

I believe this is an excellent idea for Single Player for balancing, but for multiplayer the swap during combat should be disabled.

It is really unnecessary for multiplayer and it lowers the difficulty of the game way below what it should be.


I'm still watching the dev stream with my unsigned NDA contract in my hands trying to take it all in before I go any further with anything. Ill try to contribute some on the HD more when I get caught up.

IMO, it should be allowed, regardless of single player or multiplayer.

The difficulty is limited by the DU limit, and not so much what characters people are on, and think it's not going to hurt multiplayer one single bit. Multiplayer doesn't get any more DU or anything game breaking and think it's perfectly fine. 

Just my opinion, of course!

I just went back and forth about this in my own little world that is my head. One hand I can see how it would be a huge advantage to four players that can swap out all manner of DPS combos in a match. What are the unknows?  Do I keep the same ability mana when I swap? Do cool downs reset? I mean a group could have one guy build everything and stay in the game as a builder while the other 3 have 4 variations of DPS and are swapping all over to hold lanes. But take that and see if they make it more challenging and then say oh that fits just right now, unless you are solo >.< So lets just see how it works, I like the idea of putting it in and if need be taking it out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@GreenDragon quote:

The opinion is fine, but I've always loved how everyone could pick a role to fill during combat phase. It had a very team-based, completing eachother sort of dynamic.


When everyone becomes everything with no consequence at all the composition of heroes seems less meaningful.

I disagree that DU is the big balancing factor. What about the Ability/DPS heroes that dont use DU at all?

Theres less/no consequence for everyone to swap to DPS in the combat phase rather than being locked into 1-2 builders and some DPS. That is a huge difficulty drop.

I would like to note or more question your statement though. Whats the most played hero during a combat phase in a pub? I think you will say Huntress which is not the same as everyone playing a role. Swapping does however give you a chance to fill gaps that you see forming while I don't think there will be many since the huntress seems to do well enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@iamisom quote:


@Zuqual quote:

I didn't catch the stream.  What happens if you build a tower with character A and then remove character A from your deck?

If the tower remains, then the deck is just about limiting how many characters you can play during combat.

If the tower is removed then this change helps groups while doing nothing for solo play.

Those are the details we're going to figure out. What do you think? Should the towers stay? Should they disappear? Should we give bonuses or penalties for keeping certain heroes in your deck? This is the kind of feedback and idea generation that we're hoping to see from the community.

Apologies if this is already answered as have not read all pages.


Currently if they are removed from hero deck and sub out You lose and all passive.  This still means you have to keep builders in hero deck to keep the passive running and means the HD did not change at all for solo play because we can't swap the builders out.  You can verify in Tavern, I'm on ps4 so possible pc is different.


You can swap DPS but who cares?  If you have a DPS in your 4 you either have a build strat for 3 builders or have a group.  You have to keep passive running to allow this concept to work.  In which case you might as well drop the HD concept and bring back DD1 hero storage/forge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like all of the proposed changes.   One thing that I would also like to suggest is a possible limit (i.e. One per build phase) to hero deck swapping that would still allow for versatility while not making it too overpowered. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@gotrunks712 quote:

I like all of the proposed changes.   One thing that I would also like to suggest is a possible limit (i.e. One per build phase) to hero deck swapping that would still allow for versatility while not making it too overpowered. 

I disagree.

You should have access to all your characters after the first wave. DD1 did this and we never cried for a nerf. The reason it worked is because you are still limited by DU and enemies were devastating in NM.

You couldn't go "why hey mr Sharken please don't move my wall" by the time you finished that sentence your wall would of already been moved if your placement was off.

Not only that if you are in fear of this being OP that's a good thing. The enemies will then have to up the anti and this is where NM specific enemies are needed. They should challenge you enough that you need multiple builders to develop an effective strategy to counter them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@KnowsNoLimits quote:

Not only that if you are in fear of this being OP that's a good thing. The enemies will then have to up the anti and this is where NM specific enemies are needed. They should challenge you enough that you need multiple builders to develop an effective strategy to counter them.

Finally.

This is what most people that want to keep the HD as it is don't think ok. The game right now is too easy so of course we will be overpowered if we have access to more heros. Then make Nightmare hard again, like in DD1. 

Enemies, except the crystal beast, are too simple atm. They are just close range or long range damage. We need enemies like the djinns in DD1, the sharkens, the spiders. More enemies that interacts differently and that force us to tweek our build.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to see it have an on/off switch for sharing EXP. A big part of the fun of last game was making new heroes and giving them qualities and conditions to beat the game with. for example, my brother had a squire who he made act as a wall, no killing, my sister a huntress with only the ghost shot guns, and i had a mage who had to do only abilities. Going through the game as such is quite challenging and it's fun to do it from start to finish. 

i wouldn't want my challenge hero being messed up and accelerated levels on accident. so maybe a button on each hero for if they can receive the group exp or not?

@iamisom quote:


@Tristaris quote:

The way I took it (and I could be entirely wrong) was while during build phases, you can essentially switch anything in and out. During the combat phase, you'll be locked into 4 characters however, but still be able to quick swap between those 4.

I might be wrong, though, and hope Trendy confirms it.

This change I'm totally fine with, and sounds like a fantastic compromise.

This is the current idea, but keep in mind that the finer details are still to be determined and are subject to change. We're going to play around and see what's fun. We want to see a lot of feedback about how you feel about this and what your cool ideas are on this change. 


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you want no swaps or hero deck Classic then have a mode for that like pure strategy of old but let the fun commence with swaps in phase without limit, towers remaining unchanged if heroes leave your deck no penalties. The limit being our imagination and DU.

Balancing is for fixes to towers etc not the suffocating restriction of the hero deck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The hero deck changes do sound enticing, but there are some major concerns I have:

  • If we can change our deck around during build phase and actively swap between 4 heroes during combat phase, what's the point of even having a hero deck at all? What's the 'strategic limitation' the hero deck is supposed to fulfill?
  • If 'strategic limitation' isn't the aim of the hero deck, what exactly is its purpose?
  • If 'strategic limitation' is the aim of the hero deck, how are the changes going to bring solo and co-op into parity?
Since the game is 100% catered to one-trick ponies, the current proposal sounds like I'm going to be building an entire hero for each defense in the game if there's no limit to the number of heroes I can bring to a match. If there is a limit, the proposed changes still doesn't bring solo and co-op on the same page.

In short, to ease my concerns with the hero deck, I would want the following questions answered:

  • What exactly is the purpose of the hero deck?
  • Will the new hero deck mechanics be equal between solo and co-op play?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@gigazelle quote:

The hero deck changes do sound enticing, but there are some major concerns I have:

  • If we can change our deck around during build phase and actively swap between 4 heroes during combat phase, what's the point of even having a hero deck at all? What's the 'strategic limitation' the hero deck is supposed to fulfill?
  • If 'strategic limitation' isn't the aim of the hero deck, what exactly is its purpose?
  • If 'strategic limitation' is the aim of the hero deck, how are the changes going to bring solo and co-op into parity?
Since the game is 100% catered to one-trick ponies, the current proposal sounds like I'm going to be building an entire hero for each defense in the game if there's no limit to the number of heroes I can bring to a match. If there is a limit, the proposed changes still doesn't bring solo and co-op on the same page.

In short, to ease my concerns with the hero deck, I would want the following questions answered:

  • What exactly is the purpose of the hero deck?
  • Will the new hero deck mechanics be equal between solo and co-op play?

I can answer some of this.

The Hero Deck was initially used to group random together so everyone would build. In reality that didn't happen at all, what happened was the leeches came out of hiding and got carried through end game thanks to the amazing match making system we have. The Hero Deck only worked with a co-ordinated group who could pre-plan their strategy before hand and it made solo play even more limited.

However the game was hemorrhaging players and the HD was one of the main contributors to this. What was marketed as "strategic limitation" was marketing BS to sell Hero slots. Yet it bit them in the ass when people weren't buying skins and were growing tired of the same boring meta.

Common sense would tell you limiting you to only 4 characters is a very bad idea. Especially coming off the successful free to experiment however you want, but you are still limited by DU gameplay no one asked to be changed.

The new Hero Deck is meant to now ease the grind of exp as well as help you determine which character classes you want to acquire loot for specifically.

It's salvaging a otherwise boring system which would of ultimately killed the game. People want variety, this game didn't deliver on that. The numbers showed it.

The end game gameplay wasn't good enough to hold up to the hardcore audience so they moved on.

Trendy finally woke up. Even though I have lost count on how many times I told them this would happen.

You never played DD1 did you?

The whole make a character for a specific role was something end game players would do, because it was somewhat essential and it gave them something to do. The difficulty of the true NM never came from how many builders you could bring to the defense, it was the brutal hammering of what the enemies could do to you if you let your guard down for an instant.

However smart strategic gameplay always trumped over raw power. You could progress alot easier in DD1 if you knew how to build. It's been proven with Crystaline Dimension being beaten with mythical gear.

There should be no set meta. DU is what should determine your build.

Difficulty will needed to be raised to compensate and this shouldn't be through enemies hitting harder and having more health, this needs to be done with increasing enemy variety and the danger they represent.

I say it time and time again this game doesn't have a true NM setting, what you are playing now is the equivalent to Insane+ from DD1. What I mean by that is stock enemies with more health and damage. Nightmare V won't alleviate this issue as well. No matter what they do.

You need NM specific enemies that enforce a change in your building style. Every shard enemy released did this in DD1. Builds changed and characters with unique roles were born.

At first you will cry out for a nerf of said characters released I guarantee it, this was common in DD1 when they were first released. However soon after people learned how to build around them and adapted.

If the Dark Assassin ever gets released he will ofc at first be over powered, but give it time and you will adapt. Until the next NM specific enemy is released that is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The new hero deck changes sound pretty amazing but we need to help Trendy make sure the finer details are worked out correctly. Right now I have one major detail that I'd like to work out.

Towers from a character that are removed from the hero deck should still stay in the game but should be subject to some penalty. This would ensure that you wouldn't fill your deck with 4 DPS just before the build phase.

Or in contrast to the above

As has been said all characters that are in the hero deck during the combat phases get buffs to their placed towers however I'd worry that maps and difficulties would be balanced around having these buffs which is why for one I'd propose a penalty instead of a buff

Also I feel that we need to take into consideration the other section of the Devstream about the Strategy Revamp. Both the hero deck and the strategy revamp should be working in harmony with each other so we make a small change to one and it should effect the other in a positive way bringing the game up to a better state.

[[24592,users]] I'm always up for constructive criticism to tell Trendy they are doing things wrong but on both the Anti HD side and the White Knights there were few people who were actually providing it. A majority of posts were just white knighting or complaining without substance. I'm happy that Trendy seems to have found a solid compromise. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Argick quote:

KnowsNoLimits I'm always up for constructive criticism to tell Trendy they are doing things wrong but on both the Anti HD side and the White Knights there were few people who were actually providing it. A majority of posts were just white knighting or complaining without substance. I'm happy that Trendy seems to have found a solid compromise. 

I just can't stand people that white knight a game which has major issues and if you dare criticize their precious game they get all defensive. If all we had were WK's this game would never evolve. I'm not going to let the casuals turn this game into another DDE.

Which is where this game was headed.

I'm also going to do everything in my power to give out constructive criticism which further enhances end game. As it is now end game is a joke with no staying power.

It's fair to say this game has no true end game atm, at most you spin a wheel to min/max your stats.

You want end game? you need a constant challenge, you need rewards worth going for, you need variety in builds which can be further adapted to new character releases. 

I keep saying it NM is a shell of it's former self. This isn't acceptable in anyway and I want to see it return to it's former glory.

Hell you remember Sharken specifically. I say job well done if the thought of that enemy still gives you grief.

NM specific enemies are what made Nightmare amazing. You have your trash mob and then you had elite enemies. Sharken, Djinn, Spiders, Goblin Copters fall into this category.

All Trendy has to do now is give NM it's balls back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Chappyy quote:


@dreamanime quote:

I think KnowsNoLimit is first place and Chappy second when it comes to anti Hero deck. :d

I don't think so, maybe we are tied but look at this way. I am like Robert De Niro in Casino I am firm but diplomatic, lets make a deal when it comes to the hero deck. While KnowsNoLimits is full on Joe Pesci I'm gonna baseballbat the hero deck upside the head if you don't expletive remove the expletive hero deck right expletive now!


-edit- I just realized the age group around here might not even know what I am talking about. Oh well Elliot will know ;)

XD

My evaluation of the ranking is simple based on the TPM (Topics per minute). You are a well versed allrounder using both light and dark, but the sheer amount and high damaging attacks from KnowsNoLimit is what makes him in my eyes the top candidate for first place. Its like you are Mario Girotti and KnowsNoLimit is Carlo Pedersoli.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...