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Finally after 2 years the Hero Deck dev stream is upon us


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My main gripe against the hero deck is that it artificially and directly limits my options. A lack of freedom like that not only disappoints me whenever I realize I can't try that 5+-characters-required defense setup, but just irks me, on principle, at a fundamental level. The issue is whether or not the game is fun and the deck, for me, makes the game significantly less fun.

I'll admit that it's not actually the biggest issue in the game at the moment (RNG passives on gear that are required and force you to make 1-trick-ponies would be my nominee, followed by the deck), but it has been in the game for so long despite all the feedback hating on it (including overwhelming support for changing it in an influence vote) that it has become *symbolic*.

How TE changes the deck *will determine whether or not I will trust them going forward*. If it continues to get in the way of my freedom to play however I want (without somehow making up for it - something I find highly unlikely), DD2 will be hidden in my Steam library and I will stop visiting these forums. If they somehow manage to make it useful without it also being in the way, then I will continue to keep an eye on the game and possibly even get back into it a bit once the changes are released.

Tomorrow's dev stream determines whether or not I give up my remaining hope that DD2 will (eventually) be a great game.


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So the old plan was for every hero in your select 4 to gain EXP together?

Why isn't that in the current game? That is an amazing idea for reducing grind.

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@EdTheDuck101 quote:

I'd like to address some of the thoughts people have on the hero deck, and why I disagree with the vast majority of people who complain on the forums.


"Just remove the hero deck" is such a common suggestion/complaint, but I honestly don't think most of you have thought this through. Here's why it's a bad decision:


  • Game difficulty - Having a limited number of heroes increases difficulty. It may be an "artificial" way, but you actually have to think about what heroes are most important to you. Without this need, and the ability to just bring everything it removes a level of complexity to the game, means you have less decisions when playing, and makes a game that is, quite frankly not that difficult, even easier. A re-balance of all difficulties would need to be done to go along with this.
  • Pay To Win - It very easily changes this game from a game where mtx's are simply for cosmetics and quality of life, to one where you have to spend money to be able to be efficient, or do "the best builds". Imagine Trendy just removed the deck now, and we discovered having 6 specific heroes is not only the most efficient way of doing ramparts. Since I purchased 2 more hero slots, I now have an advantage over people who haven't or can't. The only way to address this would be to allow people to create heroes for free, taking out a large amount of income for Trendy, increasing the chances of them not making enough money to continue making this game we all enjoy.
  • Immensely steeper learning curve for builds. A lot of people struggle with the best places to place certain traps/walls/defences, but luckily people like myself and others have put in a lot of work to find efficient ways of doing things. You can look them up, watch streams, or find people using them in game. Suddenly if you have to remember placements of not only 4 characters, but the defences of 5, 6... 10. It makes it far less appealing to new players or people learning.
  • More grinding, less playing. So now, you really want to level your 4 hero's for your deck before progressing into the mod-late game so you can do everything needed. If what's needed becomes 6 characters, or more, that's a hell of a lot more boring grind you have to do before really getting into the core of the game.


That's my 2 cents, agree or not, but I have no problem with the hero deck. It keeps the game from being laughably easy, and makes you have to actually think. I agree changes would be nice, like being able to change characters once you get into game to work around quick match players, but removing the hero deck is not the solution.

I'm going to touch on your 4 points.

- Game difficulty: You admit that the HD enforces an artifical difficulty, instead of a real challenge, You know with unique enemies and a Nightmare that's actually a challenge. If you are fine with such limitations that's your opinion, but please to tell me outright the game would be too easy with no limitations is a joke. You are still limited by DU. DD1 did this right.

- Pay to Win: I really didn't want to go there, but since you have brought it up time for the facts. The game is already pay for power. Every end game player worth his salt has bought hero slots to expand their co-ordination options with friends. Wake up it's already pay for power and the HD may not be fully responsible for it, but it promotes people having differnet builds to help each other. Even those who don't follow the meta still have to buy additional hero slots to experiment with different builds. Hence a paid advantage already.

If the HD is to ever be abolished then Hero slots need to be earnable through ingame currecny as well.

- Immensely steeper learning curves to builds:

 You are kidding me right?

DD2 maps are so basic that all you have to do is place your defenses as close to the spawn as safely as possible. This game lacks strategy. God forbid the game actually uses strategic placement and people actually learn from others how and where  to place towers. Then again if that happened we would actually then have a Strategy section where people can share the placements with one another and this could then actually be called a tower defense game.

- More grinding less playing: Are we playing the same game?

This game is nothing but a grind and for no reason other to frustrate the player. I'm not talking about loot either. Things like grinding pet levels, grinding to level up your loot is unneccesary so boring that some people don't even do it. Now this may surprise you, but some people like to level up different characters for the sole purpose of being set to a specific role. This is what end game players did in DD1 to increase the longevity of the game, because once done they could can then experiment withheir imagination and not have any restrictions built upon them.

 Your end game in DD2 is spinning a wheel.

So no the HD doesn't keep the game from being laughably easy, you are still limited by DU with out it. What the HD does is keeps the game from being fun and no change of a meta will fix that when you are always limited to 4. If people were having fun numbers would be higher. 

Things that make this game unfun.

- The HD promotes a forced meta and if you want to stray from the meta prepare to pay with $$$$ for more hero slots,

- The difficulty.

 Are we happy with Insane + as NM?

Where we have no NM specific enemies, no threats besides Wither beats, nothing that attacks your Hero's specifically?

- The grind.

Grinding pet levels and loot is so boring and need to be fixed, Grind hero levels has been somewhat addressed, but still needs work.

- Matchmaking is a joke. 

You can join any end game match and leech and since their's no deterrent agaisnt doing that it's accepted as the thing to do and there for is it's own meta.

- Tower balancing.

Towers are so unbalanced that things like Earth shatter's and Ballistas are eclipsed by lower more cost effective towers such as traps. Which are not only cheaper in the long run, but are more versatile with combating both resistances. Add in the fact they can be buffed by frosty's and you have the reason why the meta is a thing.

- The community

Trendy got rid of the best thing that people have enjoyed doing while not battling monsters and that's having player shops of your own or visiting others. That's how you make new friends, through trades. Not the Social tavern, which is the biggest joke of them all. Constantly seeing random pings and joining a tavern where it lags because people have maxed out the DU. Grouping is rare unless people are asking to be carried.

Now how many of these things are addressed?

Do I count none?

Yet enjoy a Carnival map which should of never had priority over any of the core issues which are yet to be addressed. Once you work out the major issues then you can add all the content you want. DD1 did this right. In it's original form it was fun from the get go, that's because it's foundation was solid. DD2 has a long way to go before it ever reaches that point,

Then they wonder why the numbers are dropping....



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@GreenDragon quote:

So the old plan was for every hero in your select 4 to gain EXP together?

Why isn't that in the current game? That is an amazing idea for reducing grind.

I wish they had this added from the beginning. Although it was not 'perfect', leveling the hero deck instead of the heroes would have been still better than the current situation. I still don't understand why this has been dropped.

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@Dreizehn quote:

I wish they had this added from the beginning. Although it was not 'perfect', leveling the hero deck instead of the heroes would have been still better than the current situation. I still don't understand why this has been dropped.

I totally want to support this game and I have tried to hold mostly positive comments about Trendy so far. I even wrote a review on Steam urging people who had problems with DD2 to try to become involved with the Alpha concept by making suggestions to Trendy and etc etc.


However I keep finding out about stuff like this. Why?

Why was the better cosmetics and dye system reworked into an even more MoBA-esque skin system? I'm still hoping that was an experiment and they are exploring how to make it better with dyes and mixing costumes.


Why were all the best parts of Hero Deck scrapped?


I'm going to have to agree with some of the others. This next dev stream is going to be very telling. Where they are going with the Deck is definitely going to be be more important than Abyss Lord or some new maps.

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@KnowsNoLimits quote:

Things that make this game unfun.

- The HD promotes a forced meta and if you want to stray from the meta prepare to pay with $$$$ for more hero slots,

- The difficulty.

 Are we happy with Insane + as NM?

Where we have no NM specific enemies, no threats besides Wither beats, nothing that attacks your Hero's specifically?

- The grind.

Grinding pet levels and loot is so boring and need to be fixed, Grind hero levels has been somewhat addressed, but still needs work.

- Matchmaking is a joke. 

You can join any end game match and leech and since their's no deterrent agaisnt doing that it's accepted as the thing to do and there for is it's own meta.

- Tower balancing.

Towers are so unbalanced that things like Earth shatter's and Ballistas are eclipsed by lower more cost effective towers such as traps. Which are not only cheaper in the long run, but are more versatile with combating both resistances. Add in the fact they can be buffed by frosty's and you have the reason why the meta is a thing.

- The community

Trendy got rid of the best thing that people have enjoyed doing while not battling monsters and that's having player shops of your own or visiting others. That's how you make new friends, through trades. Not the Social tavern, which is the biggest joke of them all. Constantly seeing random pings and joining a tavern where it lags because people have maxed out the DU. Grouping is rare unless people are asking to be carried.

Now how many of these things are addressed?

Do I count none?

Yet enjoy a Carnival map which should of never had priority over any of the core issues which are yet to be addressed. Once you work out the major issues then you can add all the content you want. DD1 did this right. In it's original form it was fun from the get go, that's because it's foundation was solid. DD2 has a long way to go before it ever reaches that point,

Then they wonder why the numbers are dropping....



So what you're saying is, that everything you consider makes the game unfun, has been confirmed to be changing soon (except for the shops, because they broke the game)?


Glad to see you will soon be enjoying the game like the rest of us.


- HD is being change in some way, details to come on Friday

- Difficulty, NM5 + 6 coming and to not just be health and damage increases, but with a challenge

- Matchmaking to be re-done and improved

- Tower balance + Hero balance currently being looked at in their balance review


All these things above are what has been said is coming and worked on this year.

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I'll be interested in watching it, but I'm not going to get my hopes up at all.

My problems with the game go much deeper than the hero deck (even though it's trash.) The MINUTE things are "required" to have in a deck, the minute a set number becomes rather disgusting. One deck slot is always guaranteed to have to be walls, so now you're down to 3 slots to work with. Etc. 

Do I think it should be removed? I'm not entirely sure. You could remove it right now, and it wouldn't hurt the game one single bit because it's in that terrible of a place even outside of it, but I can see some of the downsides of it. I would have been more content if they'd have just increased the hero deck limit to 6 or 8, and been done with it, but this is just my opinion. 

Though if we don't get some improvements soon, I'm just going to uninstall the game and find something else that can better occupy my time because at the current time, there's zero reason to log on. Improvements to the game have ground to a halt for a while now, and the only thing we are told is "we'll like what's coming" yet there is no roadmap, the playerbase is kept completely in the dark, etc, and all we are told is "that would be a good idea" or "we want to do this or that."

We'll see if these changes offer anything good, and if there's a glimmer of hope or not. Tomorrows preview will definitely be a sign of whether or not developers listen to us or not, for me. Here's to hoping it doesn't suck what little life is left in the game away.

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@EdTheDuck101 quote:

So what you're saying is, that everything you consider makes the game unfun, has been confirmed to be changing soon (except for the shops, because they broke the game)?


Glad to see you will soon be enjoying the game like the rest of us.


- HD is being change in some way, details to come on Friday

- Difficulty, NM5 + 6 coming and to not just be health and damage increases, but with a challenge

- Matchmaking to be re-done and improved

- Tower balance + Hero balance currently being looked at in their balance review


All these things above are what has been said is coming and worked on this year.

You know, i'm not going to really argue or anything, but I will say this: 

They SAID it'll be changed. Do you know HOW, or WHEN? Tell me WHY I should believe anything will actually improve? There is no roadmap to the game. There is no "This is what we would like to do, tell us what you think." I could go on and on. 

No really, I'm being genuine when I mention it because we as a playerbase know absolutely nothing about the direction of the game, and only know what we have been delivered (which lately has been less than ideal.) 

You can stand by Trendy, and defend them as much as you want, and claim that changes are coming because "they said so!" but it takes a lot more than that to convince a lot of us. If it's so grand like a few people act, I suggest going and taking a look at how the game is doing in regards to the people playing it, and how the numbers are continually dropping more and more. That says a lot.

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Uh in what way did player shops break the game?

Do you even know how they worked?

You would go to a random shop see preset values on items and if you wanted to know if they had anything extra valuable you would ask. Then sometimes they would say "nah man haven't had any luck" and then you would say "you seem pretty cool, we should run some maps togehter sometime, add me".

That's called communicating.

 You want DD2's social experience atm. Ping!, Ping!, Ping!, carry me, Ping!, Ping!, Ping!, carry me. PIng!, Ping!, Ping!, Ping!, Ping!, Ping! and oh cool pet, how did you get that?

The HD change could be something as simple as multiple decks with bonus's and a new UI. That won't bring me back to the game if they plan on keeping the limitation.

Nightmare V has been mentioned to be something different, but don't make up crap about a NM VI ever being announced, it makes your white knighting so obvious. However it doesn't matter, unless you start bringing unique specific NM enemies like the Dark Assassin to the game you may as well call it Insane++.

Match making, Tower and Hero balance is supposed to be all improved, but until they start explaining in detail how exactly it willl be improved it's all talk. Tired of hearing stay tuned. To me that sounds like we have no idea when we will be able to address these issues.

If it was coming soon you would say "right expect to see these characters and towers getting these buffs". When you stay silent it doesn't look good.

I won't be returning to the game until I have something worth returning to.

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Things that would get me playing are:

Hero Deck either gone or raised to 6

DD1 and/or DDE maps ported directly in

With above DD1 challenges ported in, call it Classic maps however you want to spin it, but get these maps in, you have the layout surely it isn't much to get them in, even with some reskinning.

DD1 DEW, Spiders, Sharken and Djinni ported in, they were awesome and we need their challenge, the goblin helicopters carrying in ogres would be great too.

DD2 is massively stale and one new hero will not make the difference.

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@Fozzie quote:

Things that would get me playing are:

Hero Deck either gone or raised to 6

DD1 and/or DDE maps ported directly in

With above DD1 challenges ported in, call it Classic maps however you want to spin it, but get these maps in, you have the layout surely it isn't much to get them in, even with some reskinning.

DD1 DEW, Spiders, Sharken and Djinni ported in, they were awesome and we need their challenge, the goblin helicopters carrying in ogres would be great too.

DD2 is massively stale and one new hero will not make the difference.

Well DD1 maps were confirmed to never be returning, because according to Elliot Cannon they don't need to return, because according to him  future DD2 maps are amazing. This was before the Carnival map was released. Sure DD2 maps are nice to look at, but they are so simplified it's like playing on the same map. Gone are tiers to maps like Talay Mines and intricate layouts.


@Noneya123 quote:

If it is not removed, this is the last day of playing for me.

According to my thread you won't be the only one and that's fine. If you simply aren't having fun then no need to force yourself to play the game.  

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DD2 maps feel as if they have been created for a mobile game.

@KnowsNoLimits quote:



Well DD1 maps were confirmed to never be returning, because according to Elliot Cannon they don't need to return, because according to him  future DD2 maps are amazing. This was before the Carnival map was released.

Wow... I totally missed that one. Well... I had my hopes up for some time but if he really thinks the maps are amazing then he may be playing a different game. :-(

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@Dreizehn quote:

DD2 maps feel as if they have been created for a mobile game.

@KnowsNoLimits quote:



Well DD1 maps were confirmed to never be returning, because according to Elliot Cannon they don't need to return, because according to him  future DD2 maps are amazing. This was before the Carnival map was released.

Wow... I totally missed that one. Well... I had my hopes up for some time but if he really thinks the maps are amazing then he may be playing a different game. :-(

They do indeed feel like a mobile game, I mean they look amazing, but their is nothing to them that makes them memorable. They all have the same build as closely to the spawn as possible to beat them vibe. In DD1 you would get annihlated for such a tactic.

Anyway if you want to check it out it was in the first Stream he appeared in, so 2 or 3 streams back.

My hopes for Aquanos returning died that day.


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@KnowsNoLimits quote:


They do indeed feel like a mobile game, I mean they look amazing, but their is nothing to them that makes them memorable. They all have the same build as closely to the spawn as possible to beat them vibe. In DD1 you would get annihlated for such a tactic.

Anyway if you want to check it out it was in the first Stream he appeared in, so 2 or 3 streams back.

My hopes for Aquanos returning died that day.


Well actually in DD1 that worked on a few maps, but not all, because there was this thing called variety then...

I actually build behind the core on kingsgame...

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