Jump to content

Building without summoner


Recommended Posts

So I'm thinking of playing from scratch without using the summoner because I just don't like what my defenses become once he's used (summoner walls), & I want to know how far you can reasonably get without using the summoner? For example through regular play would it be possible to beat shards nm?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes it is possible, I did it with my 4th playthrough, aprentice is amazing if u know how to build :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am able to play maps like Akatiti without Minions using Transcendent armor. Summoner makes things a lot easier and stats requirements are lowered but it's definitely not needed. Series EV is harder to replace.


Like Veetoo says Apprentice towers are extremely powerful, I don't do any "summoner only" survival run (armor farming) without them. Squire and Apprentice are very viable options to choose from. I prefer Squire for campaign and Apprentice for survival.

Towers which would need a buff are;

- Magic Blockade: more health to be a viable alternative

- Lightning Tower: needs some rework to be a viable alternative to auras... Priority has to be flying enemies unlike nearest enemy... Lightning immune enemies should still receive some damage... let's say being affected by lightning damage over time ignites enemies and they receives for example a reduced amount of fire damage of 50%.

- Slice and Dice: lowering DU costs since it has a pretty low range, probably buffing carefully health and/or damage.

- Proton Beam: could work with an area of effect (like a tube unlike auras) to fight very low flying enemies


LOL, derailed ... -.-


BTT: I may forward you to this guide, where I have avoided to use the Summoner for most part of the game. On later maps you will have to have higher and higher stats to be able to build without Summoner but those are reachable with Transcendent armor while using treadmill and sup/ult tower weapon/accs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1 to other comments, So long as you have the Series EV + 4 originals, you can do anything. Summoner mostly just sucks out the difficulty...

@EagleOne quote:Towers which would need a buff are;

- Magic Blockade: more health to be a viable alternative

- Lightning Tower: needs some rework to be a viable alternative to auras... Priority has to be flying enemies unlike nearest enemy... Lightning immune enemies should still receive some damage... let's say being affected by lightning damage over time ignites enemies and they receives for example a reduced amount of fire damage of 50%.

- Slice and Dice: lowering DU costs since it has a pretty low range, probably buffing carefully health and/or damage.

- Proton Beam: could work with an area of effect (like a tube unlike auras) to fight very low flying enemies

I hope you weren't suggesting that as a comprehensive list...

Anyway, some of these are being addressed in the next beta (when it comes out...), looking forward to your feedback on the changes there. Although, the proton beam already is a "tube"...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
First off; sorry OP, derailing wasn't intended :(
@CrzyRndm quote:

I hope you weren't suggesting that as a comprehensive list...

Anyway, some of these are being addressed in the next beta (when it comes out...), looking forward to your feedback on the changes there. Although, the proton beam already is a "tube"...

Hmm, no, just my thoughts to the current towers since Veetoo were talking about the good apprentice towers. Lots of people say they are bad, that's just not true at all. You can't just use one tower like another one. You have to work with them to get the full potential out of them while dealing with their drawbacks. Many say Harpoon Turrets are superior due to the obvious... but it's situational. Bowling Balls have their use such as Fireball Towers and DSTs. Used correctly they are situational a better choice than vanilla Harpoon Turrets. I assure you that some builds wouldn't be possible without Fireballs/DSTs.


Also Traps are extremely useful (Darkness anyone?)... Misty, Moraggo, Kings... all done with traps only (trans-armored) + 2-4 poons or archers to attract Ogres in cases you as DPS hero miss one AND without beams. Haven't touched more maps yet though with the "trap only" build. These are fun builds and while pubbing it you get called hacker way too often or they just leave your game :(


I'm looking forward to your balance changes, keep the changes / percentages very small though. Better to do 100 small steps than running over the edge.


About Proton Blast: Didn't noticed it to be a "tube" already but more like a point to point detection. Well then, an increased ranged should be done quickly. Series EV will be always a kind of support hero rather than a "serious" builder but that's good. Not every hero has to be able to run maps solo. That's why it's strategy :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@warhuger quote:

Hey mate, Are you playing on Open or Ranked, b/c i just restarted and would be cool with starting over, then we could play through it as a group!


Thx for the offer but I'll have to decline :/ I'll be doing my play through extremely casually & I can see myself stopping randomly ect so I wouldn't make a good group member.


@EagleOne quote:

First off; sorry OP, derailing wasn't intended :(

It's no biggie. Actually while on the subject of towers I'd like to ask a few things. What wall would you recommend, & why? Are walls worth it? Are shock beams worth it or should I stick to gas traps? Thx for any responses!

I should mention that I'll be using everything but summoners, & from the replies so far that should work which is great news for me.  

I also plan on using a dps/boost monk for general play when needed so any pets/weapon tips for him would be nice, though I'll be using a barb for boss killing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wall:

I've used just the Bouncer Blockade as "wall" actually more like a doorstop. Use the environment to get advantages, I always tried to create something where Ogres are getting stuck between environment and the Bouncer Blockade. For such "small" walls Harpoon Turrets work great to stop Ogres from attacking. For bigger walls using several Bouncer Blockades or Physical Walls I'd probably use Fireball Towers when Ogres pile up at the wall. Sharkens are probably the worst enemy for walls.


Shock Beams:

Shock Beams are more like damaged buffed Proximity Traps than Gas Traps, so you have to stick to Gas Traps in most cases. Try them out anyways to see what works.


DPS Hero:

Hehe, was surprised to read DPS Monk for Combat Phases, a bit disappointed about the next sentence :P If you play solo I'd go with DPS Monk as boss killer just an advise though :) Barb is a viable choice if you get Hero Boosted by a DPS Monk for enemies which are enforcing a damage stop like Genie King, Ancient Dragon, Goblin Battlecruiser, Old One... not Kraken.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well things have been going pretty smoothly for me so far but I'd like to ask for a couple tips. Also good news I've decided to drop making a barb, I like my monk too much, but I've decided to lvl a jester to be my upgrading char (manually picking up mana sucks :P).

First thing would be where can I get a decent lupine bow?

Second is tips for akatiti jungle, I'm just having a hard time figuring out a build for it. Main problem I'm running into is ogres with their massive range hitting the crystal. 

Third, where can I farm for decent accessories?

Thx for any answers! 



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lupine Bows can be gotten from

  • Palantir
  • The King's Game
  • Tavern Defense
  • Akatiti Jungle
  • Winter Wonderland
  • The Tinkerer's Lab
Akatiti is going to be a tough one of you aren't using summons.  I don't have much experience in that bit.

Decent Accessories come from Winter Wonderland Campaign, Temple of Love, and Challenge: Lab Assault. (The last one having the best accessories)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@topler quote:Second is tips for akatiti jungle, I'm just having a hard time figuring out a build for it. Main problem I'm running into is ogres with their massive range hitting the crystal.


Akatiti is a bit tricky due to the low amount of Defense Units. Since you are asking for tips and not a complete build... I use 3 Harpoons west, 2 Harpoons east. The paths to the crystals are open at west. I'd say I'll shut for now, if you need more tips... don't hesitate to ask.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Caimen0 quote:

Lupine Bows can be gotten from

  • Palantir
  • The King's Game
  • Tavern Defense
  • Akatiti Jungle
  • Winter Wonderland
  • The Tinkerer's Lab
Akatiti is going to be a tough one of you aren't using summons.  I don't have much experience in that bit.

Decent Accessories come from Winter Wonderland Campaign, Temple of Love, and Challenge: Lab Assault. (The last one having the best accessories)

Thanks! I actually got a lupine from insane kings game before asking, but the ones I found there where always godly & had too little ups to be viable mana generators, I'll have to give those other maps a go or try one on survival.

@EagleOne quote:

Akatiti is a bit tricky due to the low amount of Defense Units. Since you are asking for tips and not a complete build... I use 3 Harpoons west, 2 Harpoons east. The paths to the crystals are open at west. I'd say I'll shut for now, if you need more tips... don't hesitate to ask.

I looked up a build & I think it may be the same one your talking about or similar, but it wasn't working for me. The issues I was having where east getting hit by ogres randomly when they were attacking the harpoons & on west sometimes there'd be a ogre build up & my harp would fail to attack one ogre letting it get by & to the crystal. So any placement tips for those would be of great help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

hmm a little update & more questions!

I'm now able to do all the original campaign & shard maps solo on nm (minus crystalline dimension) which I think is decent. In fact I recently became able to solo skycity nm so I've been doing a run of that here & there hoping for a good monk wrench, sadly I don't do hc cause I don't trust myself not to die on the boss. I've also learned of the glory that is fish bowls, it's become my go to builder pet, very easy to get one on moonbase insane & much faster then tavern defense insane pure strat. Something else worth noting is I've become able to run assault labs insane, as I got myself a bf drill. It was rather easy to get the bf drill as I ran akatiti insane to get myself a monkey first then ran volcanic eruption on insane for the gun. I'm also able to comfortably run insane akatiti now but I'm unable to run nm akatiti, guessing I'll need 2-3k on my builders before I'm able to run that.

Anyway onward to the questions. My first one will be where are good spots to farm for high mythical/trans/supreme armor? My first guess would be a bonus map such as kings game survival nmhcmm but I thought I'd ask about other spots, variety is nice. Second question involves trading, I want to buy a chicken cause I loathe tinkers lab but I don't know if the shops are trust worthy, mainly because I know there was a issue with hacked gear, am I just crazy or are there some shops I should avoid? Also how much does a average chicken cost? My third question is where can I quickly lvl my builders? I still need to get them lvl 83 so I can use the accessories I obtained from lab assault.. & once again thx for any answers!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good places to farm for armor is NMHC survival on Shards maps or King's Game. Mixed mode is not really needed for armor.

It is a good idea to post an item in the item checking thread (in Trading section) for verification before buying.

The easiest way to level builders is on TD NMHC. If you have trouble with the bosses, you can just restart after finishing the 2nd last wave. King's Game also gives decent XP and of course there is no boss to worry about. Bring in extra characters with controller or controller emulator for multi-levelling at once.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@mayhem_zero quote:

Good places to farm for armor is NMHC survival on Shards maps or King's Game. Mixed mode is not really needed for armor.

It is a good idea to post an item in the item checking thread (in Trading section) for verification before buying.

The easiest way to level builders is on TD NMHC. If you have trouble with the bosses, you can just restart after finishing the 2nd last wave. King's Game also gives decent XP and of course there is no boss to worry about. Bring in extra characters with controller or controller emulator for multi-levelling at once.

Thx for the reply. I ended up doing kings game to lvl my builders as I can afk on my builders for the last few waves.

I'd like to ask more about trading for a mega chicken though, first time trading for anything in this game. I want a decent one cause I doubt I'll ever do the survival for one & I'd like to know the general price for one. I was thinking 1 cube for a chicken but I have no idea if that's too much or too little.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeap, rewards from Moonbase and Lab Assault are way too good for the effort it takes to do them. Sadly we have these people in the community and as it seems also into the cdt who are stat ****ing. They don't get the point that such stuff will cut the game for beginners. The increased U++ rate is so ridiculous. Tower Defense should have aspect of using actual strategies rather than overrunning opponents by overpowered stats. I don't see any difference to DDE anymore. Just sad.


BTT: Congratz to your progress without Summoner. Yes, Aka NM requires roundabout 2k into tower stats but for sure into dps stats for your boss killers. There are also the Bonus Maps (Tavern Defense, Akatiti) to be run on Insane/Nightmare. The rewards are not that bad and you level your heroes simultaneously. Before the RNG got changed (and wrecked in my opinion... but well I'm also not a stats ****e) I was able to reach 3k stats without farming survivals, Moonbase and Lab for gear. I wouldn't recommend to do Kings Game survival with lower than 2k :)


If you want to trade for chickens I may donate some of mine since a few players asking for horrendous prices. I often sell them for 2b in my AFK shop. A few individuals by them all to do some profit... greediness is insane ^^


Tavern Defense Campaign gives tons of XP. No clue if you are able to put another hero into your game but that will give you up to 60% more XP than your active hero.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@EagleOne quote:If you want to trade for chickens I may donate some of mine since a few players asking for horrendous prices. I often sell them for 2b in my AFK shop. A few individuals by them all to do some profit... greediness is insane ^^

I sell my better ones for 2B as well.  I classify better as positive hero stats with starting pet damage at 23k+.

I have these 3 I haven't put in to stock yet, just let me know if you want them.


http://imgur.com/a/P4Qql


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry about not replying to those mega chicken offers, I did manage to trade for one though, saw a person using the legendary skins figured I'd ask if they had one for trade & they did so yay!

Now I'd like to talk about towers. I feel that I gravitated towards the basic towers as I got further into the game, by further i mean nm. My go-to towers quickly became harpoons, aura stack, buff beam, reflects, ev wall, gas trap, explosive trap, & inferno trap. I would try to use other towers but I just couldn't find a situation to use them where I could with confidence say they'd out preform my usual stuff. Take for example fireballs, I always found sharken shoving them everywhere the moment stuff built up on them causing me to avoid them. Wondering if people can point out some uses for my underused towers late game, curious to see how people used them.

Other then that I agree that lab is too easy for it's rewards & the rewards for moon base are a bit too good, mainly pets on moon base fish is too op. I also want to mention palantir, did it today on nmhc but I found the loot lackluster, was kinda hoping for td tier loot but oh-well. More on td, I like this map quite a lot it has a decent amount of du so it's clearly balanced without the summoner in mind & it has good loot & xp!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sharkens are heavy with lower stats. Especially if Ogres pile up in front of your defenses / wall. Depending on your tower dps, Ogres are not killed fast enough. So Sharkens are able to get closer to your defenses and move them.


Traps have a very limited use for lower stats. I wouldn't recommend to use them to do damage, they are often to weak for their DU costs. Instead of a combination of Gas, Proxy and Inferno Traps I suggest to use Gas and Darkness Traps. Darkness Traps remove any elemental affinity to keep the enemies at a certain distance. Strength Drain Aura works similar but for some reasons it doesn't work always for poision immune enemies. This bug has been reported several times, sadly the focus seems to be on new content and the rng itself rather than fixing actual bugs (yeap I'm kind of frustrated/disappointed, changing the game which worked for them several years).


BTT... once you have stopped them that way be sure your towers are in range to kill them. Then you will only have to fight Ogres (btw the one and only enemy which should get to your wall). If you experience a flood of several enemy types attacking your wall then you are doing something wrong :)


Due to splash damage, Fireball Towers are extremely helpful if enemies pile up. In case enemies are walking in a single line to your defenses and they won't pile up, Harpoon Turrets are a better choice. A mix of both can be useful if you have many Ogres which pile up in front of your wall while you are in need to kill Sharkens behind them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...