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Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz

end game nm4 is way too hard to solo and the lobbies are so small its pretty much your lucky day of the week if you find a group of people playing nm4...

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@Eat your Donut quote:

What I'm trying now is a hybrid wiz (walls+frost), aura monk and traptress + DPS. It works fine. My frosts took a hit since I cant wear my chilling touch but still it works really well.

Yeah.  With the recent wall rebalancing coupled with the solo-friendly patch, hybriding definitely became a thing for solo play to make more use out of the limited deck.  While it'll never be as powerful as two heroes specifically tailored to their 1 button roles, it's definitely doable to suffer a loss in optimal passives to make soloing easier.

Pre-solo friendly, I geared my froster with pyro slipped in to the 10% fp and whatever vector 2-3% I could scrounge up, did the same with my waller (despite the hh+dh combo being needed then) with iron core slipped in.  Went entirely without traps and cleared everything nm4 nonincursion fine, including betsy.  Then again, a super geared hd/ap hunt with drago was still required to pull it off so I could burst down bosses asap and return to heavy flow lane.  The weak cannons and flamebursts/throwers did fine for cleaning out light lanes while I dealt with the heavies.  Just relied on purge and a lot of frosts (typically 5 or more per lane depending on map) to keep things at bay.

Now with all the recent changes, it's definitely easier and reliable to hybrid to add versatility.  As you noted, froster with barrier staff works well, so does shuffling ironcore on to cannon squire with the recent change to hearty.  Another one I've seen work fairly well is gearing trapper to dp/dh with trip, volatile and towering poison.  Donut's comment is definitely a good point... hybriding should be considered to make room for a dps when soloing nm4.  If you keep playing it with 1 button builder optimized gear, you're gonna run into headaches due to missing an essential builder in deck.

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@Naxtilian quote:


no i have 4 builders my mage is just missing a few frosty power gear and then ill full 650+ ipower on all 4 characters yes im getting passives tripwire amped up hearty blockade and frosty i even have a mage staff and bow from harb and a few other gears upgraded above 700 i power 

no i did not just hit a wall at nm4 i hit a wall on all nm levels but once i grinded out the gears and passives mainly it became possible im missing 3-4 pieces of gear from liferoot on my mage have at least 6 nice piece of gear from the harb and put over 500000 of gold in upgrades i still cant beat gates

im considering killing off my monk and making another archer but his auras are so good its just not going to happen ..........

Are you rolling with 3 builders and 1 dps ? Its the best way to solo atm imo.
I would recommend starting off with a dps instead of monk until you get more comfortable with it, then you can really start playing around with different builds and defences. 

i have 4 builders and a set of dps gear for my huntress (which i cant use because i use explosive traps on magic resist lanes and la and lsa in the most lanes i can to save du for anti air turrets since la and lsa cover the most area and work very nicely) 

luckily i have met a couple people who have helped me get some good gear and i got a group to do nm4 incursion and we won so easy it makes me want to cry because i cant even solo gates lol and its not even like we had 4 huntress we had all 4 characters in the fight phase still too easy

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@KnowsNoLimits quote:

Last I checked this game didn't have a Nightmare yet.

Just Insane +.

No, there's Nightmare 1, 2, 3, and 4 in the game, you're probably not aware since you don't play the game anymore. 

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@talynone quote:


@KnowsNoLimits quote:

Last I checked this game didn't have a Nightmare yet.

Just Insane +.

No, there's Nightmare 1, 2, 3, and 4 in the game, you're probably not aware since you don't play the game anymore. 

I have played these so called Nightmare levels and they are anything but that. That's why I call it Insane+, because that's alot closer to it's difficulty.

DD1's NM had so much more going on for it. Sharken, Djinn, Spiders and Goblin Copters to name a few. Also vanilla enemies like DEW's, Dark Mages were an actual threat on NM. We also had Ogre's with very high health and damage, these Ogre's pale in comparison it's laughable.

In DD2 your so called NM consists of boring resistance lanes with 75% resists, Kobold Lane which a Huntress can hold down by herself. Strategy is non existant, just high enough stats that you power your way through it.  Hide behind your walls like a little *** and pew pew.

Trendy don't have the balls to release the Dark Assassin which if you don't know was an enemy type similar to  DEW who would seek Hero's out and turn invisible when doing so. Sad thing is if he ever is released the casuals will ask for an immediate nerf to him.

So I'm waiting for casual defenders 2 to step up it's game.

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Why do solo players insist on "HAVING" to play the hardest difficulty anyways? Nobody will judge you playing lesser maps.

They've already nerfed NM4 to cater to more casual players, and the population is still as low as ever. With a nearly dead multiplayer population, this game has no future until the developers stop listening to the niche Solo players, who seem to enforce the idea that the game's hardest difficulty must be SOLO'able. "Nerf hero deck so we can SOLO. Nerf NM4 so we can SOLO."

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@dwade123 quote:

Why do solo players insist on "HAVING" to play the hardest difficulty anyways? Nobody will judge you playing lesser maps.

They've already nerfed NM4 to cater to more casual players, and the population is still as low as ever. With a nearly dead multiplayer population, this game has no future until the developers stop listening to the niche Solo players, who seem to enforce the idea that the game's hardest difficulty must be SOLO'able. "Nerf hero deck so we can SOLO. Nerf NM4 so we can SOLO."

so, with that in mind..

what's your opinion on the difficulty of multiplayer games atm?

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Who are these solo haters kidding?

A NM 4 incursion map with 4 player coop is uncomparably easier than the same map on the same difficulty normal map solo.

The difficulty equivalent of Gates nm4 solo with dps huntress is Gates nm4 inc with 2 monk, an app dps and a leecher with lvl 16 squire. THAT is how big the difference is between solo and coop.

Plus you know for a fact solo players haven`t been carried or leeched gear to get where they are. So why the hate?
Why scold ppl who wanna solo when maps aren`t even close in difficulty solo vs 4man coop even after solo balance?

And btw how does a solo player succeeding hurt your gaming experience?

And nm4 shouldn`t be soloable cos endgame shouldn`t be soloable? Where did the "Play Private" button on the main screen inform players about that?

Haters gonna hate and solo still needs balancing. Not saying NM4 should be as easily soloable as it is 4mannable, but with good setup it should certainly be soloable in nm3 gear. But it isn`t.

Put on a friggin 580 IPWR gear and show me how you solo nm4 without frosty cheese. You still feel it`s easy? Imagine you never got a Purge with DP and high percent. Or that you weren`t playing in december. I invite you to do all that, make a video and shame me if you can still do it. I`ll publicly apologise.

It`s easy to speak from your "breezed through nm4 cos coop is so EZ and went back with a completed 730 gear to nail nm4" position. Of which ofc you made and posted a video where even though you have top-notch gear, weapon variances to suit your style and strategy, you still almost loose a wall. /facepalm

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P.S. If the developers decide the highest difficulty shouldn`t be soloable I`d respect their decision and I`d understand that somehow solo play is what significantly reduces coop population instead of terrible imbalance and cash grab events alienating the player base, but then don`t let players make a nm4 private game. It`s that simple. You can`t set nm4 maps to Private. Until then, it should be soloable.

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@Sogron quote:

Who are these solo haters kidding?

A NM 4 incursion map with 4 player coop is uncomparably easier than the same map on the same difficulty normal map solo.

The difficulty equivalent of Gates nm4 solo with dps huntress is Gates nm4 inc with 2 monk, an app dps and a leecher with lvl 16 squire. THAT is how big the difference is between solo and coop.

Plus you know for a fact solo players haven`t been carried or leeched gear to get where they are. So why the hate?
Why scold ppl who wanna solo when maps aren`t even close in difficulty solo vs 4man coop even after solo balance?

And btw how does a solo player succeeding hurt your gaming experience?

And nm4 shouldn`t be soloable cos endgame shouldn`t be soloable? Where did the "Play Private" button on the main screen inform players about that?

Haters gonna hate and solo still needs balancing. Not saying NM4 should be as easily soloable as it is 4mannable, but with good setup it should certainly be soloable in nm3 gear. But it isn`t.

Put on a friggin 580 IPWR gear and show me how you solo nm4 without frosty cheese. You still feel it`s easy? Imagine you never got a Purge with DP and high percent. Or that you weren`t playing in december. I invite you to do all that, make a video and shame me if you can still do it. I`ll publicly apologise.

It`s easy to speak from your "breezed through nm4 cos coop is so EZ and went back with a completed 730 gear to nail nm4" position. Of which ofc you made and posted a video where even though you have top-notch gear, weapon variances to suit your style and strategy, you still almost loose a wall. /facepalm

Funny thing is, I broke into nm4 solo back in October before all the rebalancing to difficulty, before the solo-friendly patch, before all the harb options and passive rebalancing, etc.  Yet some of you can't and its suddenly just inconceivable that anyone else could.  You all make these high and mighty soapbox posts about how life's unfair yet fail to realize players had to break into nm4 without being carried in order to carry the rest of the scrubs that are currently getting carried.  Point being, solo is a challenge but not nowhere near as undoable as some of you make it out to be.  The curve from nm3 to nm4 shouldn't be as easy as "well youre in i580 average, gg you're in bro".  It's the highest tier of play.  You want in, then invest the gold and grind into getting your passives optimized and a few fusions on each piece.  Learn from defeats and come back with a new strategy.  Experiment with different maps because some maps despite being the same "threshold" aren't exactly the same difficulty thanks to layout, amount of lanes, and a slew of other reasons.  Please direct all future tears into my cooler of unfulfilled gaming dreams.  I get parched sometimes and your tears definitely quench my thirst.

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Go solo every map in 600 - 650ipwr gear on NM4 and tell me its balanced.
Its only easy on liferoot and plaza. GL farming Boss Weapons solo

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@roboticaust quote:

Funny thing is, I broke into nm4 solo back in October before all the rebalancing to difficulty, before the solo-friendly patch, before all the harb options and passive rebalancing, etc.  Yet some of you can't and its suddenly just inconceivable that anyone else could.  You all make these high and mighty soapbox posts about how life's unfair yet fail to realize players had to break into nm4 without being carried in order to carry the rest of the scrubs that are currently getting carried.  Point being, solo is a challenge but not nowhere near as undoable as some of you make it out to be.  The curve from nm3 to nm4 shouldn't be as easy as "well youre in i580 average, gg you're in bro".  It's the highest tier of play.  You want in, then invest the gold and grind into getting your passives optimized and a few fusions on each piece.  Learn from defeats and come back with a new strategy.  Experiment with different maps because some maps despite being the same "threshold" aren't exactly the same difficulty thanks to layout, amount of lanes, and a slew of other reasons.  Please direct all future tears into my cooler of unfulfilled gaming dreams.  I get parched sometimes and your tears definitely quench my thirst.

eh, I completed my first greystone plaza NM4 map the day after the crit patch in around that time (was beating it the few days prior to that with scatter shot bow crit huntress but that shouldn't count) 


...but I also did that with a bunch of cheesed NM4 gear from wave 1'ing ogres and had legacy frost gear for it... which amounted to three times the frosty power I have now


So, did you break into NM4 with <50% frosty and 0 NM4 gear from cheesing wave 1 ogres?  Because that's what players have to do it with now.

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@Pachipachio quote:


@roboticaust quote:

snip

eh, I completed my first greystone plaza NM4 map the day after the crit patch in around that time (was beating it the few days prior to that with scatter shot bow crit huntress but that shouldn't count) 


...but I also did that with a bunch of cheesed NM4 gear from wave 1'ing ogres and had legacy frost gear for it... which amounted to three times the frosty power I have now


So, did you break into NM4 with <50% frosty and 0 NM4 gear from cheesing wave 1 ogres?  Because that's what players have to do it with now.

God it's been months but to answer your question, I was above 40% fp but not 50% for sure.  As for cheesing stuff, does getting a few waves in to liferoot, gearing with anything usable then repeating til I succeeded count?

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@roboticaust quote:

God it's been months but to answer your question, I was above 40% fp but not 50% for sure.  As for cheesing stuff, does getting a few waves in to liferoot, gearing with anything usable then repeating til I succeeded count?

kinda hard to believe but meh, can't argue with what you remember.  Having just 1 legendary frosty piece was already like 40% frosty though

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@Pachipachio quote:


@roboticaust quote:

God it's been months but to answer your question, I was above 40% fp but not 50% for sure.  As for cheesing stuff, does getting a few waves in to liferoot, gearing with anything usable then repeating til I succeeded count?

kinda hard to believe but meh, can't argue with what you remember.  Having just 1 legendary frosty piece was already like 40% frosty though

Around October that stuff was already legacy, so I missed out on it.  Literally joined the game at bearkira

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@roboticaust quote:


@Pachipachio quote:


@roboticaust quote:

God it's been months but to answer your question, I was above 40% fp but not 50% for sure.  As for cheesing stuff, does getting a few waves in to liferoot, gearing with anything usable then repeating til I succeeded count?

kinda hard to believe but meh, can't argue with what you remember.  Having just 1 legendary frosty piece was already like 40% frosty though

Around October that stuff was already legacy, so I missed out on it.  Literally joined the game at bearkira

You joined in october and you were doing 1000 ipwr maps by the end of that month w/o co-op assistance? 

must have really embraced the grind lol 

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@Pachipachio quote:


@roboticaust quote:


@Pachipachio quote:


@roboticaust quote:

God it's been months but to answer your question, I was above 40% fp but not 50% for sure.  As for cheesing stuff, does getting a few waves in to liferoot, gearing with anything usable then repeating til I succeeded count?

kinda hard to believe but meh, can't argue with what you remember.  Having just 1 legendary frosty piece was already like 40% frosty though

Around October that stuff was already legacy, so I missed out on it.  Literally joined the game at bearkira

You joined in october and you were doing 1000 ipwr maps by the end of that month w/o co-op assistance? 

must have really embraced the grind lol 

no life-card

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i might as well update this i have managed to get some pretty good gear and i can solo a couple maps now (but if they didnt put that carnival wheel and had i not had help beating the harbinger about 100 times this all would not be ...) currently im using my huntress as dps monk gor ligtning my waller squire with sploody harpoon and frost towers the only real issue with this is if a map has mixed lanes or very close lanes to make the bad balistas fire at walls well you get the picture lol

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Here is the deal. it's impossible to find groups with out spending an hour + out of game to find a Guild, then find a group then find some one to play with, which means ALL nightmare modes are wastelands, so the only way to play the game is solo, the solo experience is far too difficult, for games in this loot based genre, where lower difficulties feel like a waste of time, and then the lower difficulties that can be complete for example the new map are underwhelming with rewards. (aside if you payed for it to reward you) 

The first issue again is that there is no groups that are actively able to complete maps on anything higher than NM 2, and even then NM2 has next to no players playing. So you are FORCED to play solo games. The community is small the division of player base is split four ways, with no reason for people that out geared NM1 to do NM1 while in other games there is always a reason, for example diablo has the best loot drop on ALL difficulties. hmm it's almost like they are difficulties. Rather than progression nodes and things that want players to be segregated. Making things take months and months to grind and be able to complete isn't rewarding which makes me unwilling to play the game very much. I will complete the 16 maps I need to win, but however that is exceedingly boring because the difficulties I can complete on that map aren't actually progressing my characters, unless I get a lucky roll with the wheel in the hub world.


Here lies the rub this game tries to be challenging, but it's all gear checks, and the hours you spend on lower difficulties doesn't even prepare you well for the next difficulty, It's much like vanilla diablo 3 where you had to kill the butcher and elites before the butcher for far too long to progress and able to have both the damage and durability.  This game throws everything they learned from diablo 3's changes, and everything the whole loot based genre found out and is now making the game ultra grind heavy where you actually don't 


They are planning on releasing a new hero, planning on lessening the level grind, which well they could actually get rid of levels all together and progress at the same rate because of how gear dependent the game is, and how long it takes to actually get the gear to get to the next tier of challenge. With that said, they might increase level cap eventually for a "wipe but we said there won't be so this will have to do" which means even more power creep. and even more infinite loot difficulties that make the game too hard for the solo player and even harder to gear. 


They want the game to be something it isn't, have WoW like progression which is a stale concept for loot based RPGs. People inherently like to be able to challenge themselves, but putting the challenges in the difficulties and the only place to challenge yourself there is broken concept, it should roughly be easy to get and complete NM4 Difficulties, And if you put in leader-boards and other things to make the game have a soft competition that resets every few months, people will drive and try to  get the best map builds combined with the best hero builds to be able to challenge themselves. But depriving that content to the people that have the time to go and achieve NM4 content is not a very good decision game design wise. this game has what it takes to be good, but you make it punishingly difficult in the wrong places.


People would enjoy themselves more if they where to feel rewarded through the entire progression curve until end game, you can't just title something end game and it be endgame. End game for ALL loot based games is when you are farming for the best gear, and NM1-3 isn't the best gear, and the gear discrepancy between a player with 1000 hours to a player with 200 hours on one hero, is well insane, this leads people to not have their real life friends playing the game with each other because it'd be unrewarding for one or the other depending on mode of play. 


the game was by far the best gear balanced, and challenge balanced before wipeageddon. all the things that came after where just reasons to make the game a boring loot grind where nothing feels rewarding. Condencing the endgame to 1 or 2 difficulties, and making the people that want to have that challenge and be able to beat others in leaderboards should be what the hardcore players do in this game for a challenge. Not just barely complete NM4 solo. 


If you guys actually made the game rewarding for all types of players and balanced the game for the two demographics ones that grind will be able to find the perfect rolled gear to compete on leader boards, and those that want to play semi-challenging maps would be able to play the difficulties that are actually rewarding. 

I honestly don't think not a single soul that develops this game has actually tried the progression from beginning to being able to complete the hardest map on hard. If not a single soul in trendy wants to do that they have failed as game designers and they should make a game they want to play not a game that has grind for the sake of grind, just so grind can be a grind. You understand that this makes games boring, and when the grind is placed in the wrong spot the game becomes hyper unrewarding and boring. 

The wyvern tokens are an absolute terrible idea and need to stop existing in this game. Time bars from character progression shouldn't exist. that doen't make we want to come back and play the game, same with monthlies or dalies, that whole system is broken and the skill sphere system needs improvement because of the wyvern token system. 

Again the game has too many difficulties. The game has no players forming groups in the many difficulties. And people are generally forced to play solo, in a game that is well quite frankly balanced for multiplayer I honestly think the game would be better if they just said you know what!? there is no more things called solo.

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I soloed up to the end of nm3 with just builders, I don't understand this notion that solo play is impossible. Yes it sucks being a new player with the universal loot, but the game is just fine as far as solo progression is concerned. 

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@Racthoh quote:

I soloed up to the end of nm3 with just builders, I don't understand this notion that solo play is impossible. Yes it sucks being a new player with the universal loot, but the game is just fine as far as solo progression is concerned. 

Again, it's not about "solo is impossible", it's about the HUGE gap between between solo and co-op play. The source of this disparity is how difficulty fundamentally works in this game, which is nothing more than "higher health more damage". It's completely pointless when that's the only thing that changes.

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@Racthoh quote:

I soloed up to the end of nm3 with just builders, I don't understand this notion that solo play is impossible. Yes it sucks being a new player with the universal loot, but the game is just fine as far as solo progression is concerned. 

probably don't understand it because you didn't solo up to nm4 

the jump to nm3 is very tame compared to the nm4 jump


and giga is right as well, but I understand your 'impossible' claim was hyperbole to be dismissive of people's complaints.  They're important complaints though - difficulty in this game is really just disguised as tediousness.  You don't need strategy, you need patience.  Or several more bodies since a standard 50k DPS huntress is basically like 3-4 mobile 742 ipwr perfect gear cannons which trivializes the 'difficulty'

that's boring and not fun, an issue that needs looking at

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people dont like playing with other people cuz they alway lie. They want to play nm4 when they clearly don't pull any weight. They say they are dps when they are not dps. Having a 700 ipower bow and some 700 ipower attack relic does not make you a dps. At least not in nm4 standard. To be a dps in nm4 standard you need a lich pet, or cyclone, or a good aoe like sword pet or poison tip. Then comes the bow. You need piece shot 18 or 19% preferably on the relic as well. 4s to make use of charge shot. The bow should be betsy, armor cleanser, burst shot or at least falcon at the very worse. Almost 80% of the people that claim they are dps and build nothing are fake dps. They can't hold thier own hard lane that only appears cuz they are in the game. Can maps be done with 1 leecher that does nothing? Yes. Can it be done with 2 leechers maybe.  But most cases it is 3 leechers so no. I went in rampart with only 4 builders and just did nothing all game other than repair some walls so it is possible. But it isnt good or effective. Makes the game hard. It also waste time cuz the fail rate is so high. This is why people latch on to people they seen and proved to be similar skilled and they host private games. This will only lead to more people hosting private games and thus you see all the matchmaking maps are empty. Endless cycle cuz no limitation on ipower or some kind of barrier to stop leechers from joining nm4.

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