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Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz

end game nm4 is way too hard to solo and the lobbies are so small its pretty much your lucky day of the week if you find a group of people playing nm4...

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this game is pretty sweet and the levels are amazing the detail put into it is so good

but i find the small social lobbies are bad when your lower level solo play is fine you can advance in a pretty fast rate which is good but once you reach nm4 it becomes impossible to get good enough gear alone to solo the maps ive tried countless times and have not completed a solo of a map and it gets very frustrating 


so you need a nm4 set of maps that can be won solo with 600-675 ipower gear (my gear is over 650 ipower on 3 characters and i simply cant beat a map solo) and its really easy to do with 4 players any maps but the incursions so either make nm4 maps easier to solo or make it possible to find a group (why would the game send me to a lobby of people who are not even close to the same ipower as me anyways....)  tbh it has been hard to find other players to play with from day one but it was not so big of a deal when i could actually progress alone .......

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i have 740 on 7 heroes, dps huntress, dps app, squire wall, squire cannon, app flamethrower, hunter trap, monk and still cant solo any map. You know why cuz the game limits u to 4 heroes what bull***. How can you solo anything if in order to build traps, wall, frost and SA you cant have a dps zzz

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Tbh, NM4 solo is in a good spot atm. I would also say it's a bit too easy. NM4 Solo should be a challenge. If you can clear NM4 Solo with NM3 gears, then what's the purpose of gearing in NM4? 

If they would fix matchmaking and make something similar to DD1, it would help a lot since you'll be able to find some good people with you'll be able to clear a NM4 map.

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@NineO_OSix quote:

i have 740 on 7 heroes, dps huntress, dps app, squire wall, squire cannon, app flamethrower, hunter trap, monk and still cant solo any map. You know why cuz the game limits u to 4 heroes what bull***. How can you solo anything if in order to build traps, wall, frost and SA you cant have a dps zzz

You know it's only going to get worse right.

In the latest dev stream they said they are going to keep the limitation and when you have 20 Hero's available you can only use 4-6. Now you can look forward to more exp and useless bonus's.

Because strategy!

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@Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz quote:

this game is pretty sweet and the levels are amazing the detail put into it is so good

but i find the small social lobbies are bad when your lower level solo play is fine you can advance in a pretty fast rate which is good but once you reach nm4 it becomes impossible to get good enough gear alone to solo the maps ive tried countless times and have not completed a solo of a map and it gets very frustrating 


so you need a nm4 set of maps that can be won solo with 600-675 ipower gear (my gear is over 650 ipower on 3 characters and i simply cant beat a map solo) and its really easy to do with 4 players any maps but the incursions so either make nm4 maps easier to solo or make it possible to find a group (why would the game send me to a lobby of people who are not even close to the same ipower as me anyways....)  tbh it has been hard to find other players to play with from day one but it was not so big of a deal when i could actually progress alone .......



@MushroomCake28 quote:

Tbh, NM4 solo is in a good spot atm. I would also say it's a bit too easy. NM4 Solo should be a challenge. If you can clear NM4 Solo with NM3 gears, then what's the purpose of gearing in NM4? 

If they would fix matchmaking and make something similar to DD1, it would help a lot since you'll be able to find some good people with you'll be able to clear a NM4 map.

i have nm4 gear all from liferoot what are you even saying 700 is max ipower gear and i have 3 at over 650 and cant beat a single map alone

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my main point is i cant find a group (most of the time) i want to play but even with nm4 gear on 3 characters i cant win a nightmare 4 map that gives worse gear than i have solo so theres no point to waste my time ....... if i cant win a map that gives 615-625 i power gear in 650+ ipower gear then its just pointless

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@Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz quote:

my main point is i cant find a group (most of the time) i want to play but even with nm4 gear on 3 characters i cant win a nightmare 4 map that gives worse gear than i have solo so theres no point to waste my time ....... if i cant win a map that gives 615-625 i power gear in 650+ ipower gear then its just pointless

I feel your pain...

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@Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz quote:

if i cant win a map that gives 615-625 i power gear in 650+ ipower gear then its just pointless

and riiiiiiiiiiiight here is your problem. ill bet my account your gear is not max upgraded or near the highest possible base ipwr level. if it was, it wouldn't be  anywhere near around 650. it would be bordering the 720-750.

 your not even close to having the best possible gear for any of the things your trying to do and your essentially trying to complete the hardest difficulty solo  with not even close to the best possible gear in order to actually accomplish said feat.


not to mention your only running 3 characters. with this, you cant even completely build a map by yourself, nevermind dps it.


ain't trying to be a ...well...ya... but, your a very, long, grind, away from being in order to start min-max'n to the point where your solo'n content that is supposed to be done with 4 people.


btw.. an observation and basically what i am going through atm... once you get to the point where you can maybe solo nm4... your basically banging your head on the wall endlessly in 2 maps to get min-max gear... and most people who hit this point leave, quit, take a break, etc. this leads to a smaller pool of willing participants to nm4 regardless of the already small player pool to chose from in lobbies....which hopefully is countered by the new lobby as they said they were looking to up the max number of players in lobbies.

hope this helps. gl. cheers.

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I soloed my way up to nm3 with 4 builders, made my first dps for nm4, in nm 3 gear I could only solo Gates and Liferoot with frosty spam and Graystone with towers. That is, were it not for Frosty cheese I would`av only been able to do Graystone.
This frustrated me so I started playing coop matches, ofc it was uncomparably easier.
Now that I have around 710-730 on all chars (to the guy doubting 700+ gear: upgrades count towards ipwr dude) I can pretty much solo all End Game nm 4 maps with waller+cannoner/ballistaer+monk+dps, but due to hero deck not a lot can vary on the strat.
With this high end gear I can also solo Gates and Ramparts nm4 inc but ofc those are frosty cheese still.

Currently working on hybrid builders to give me more variance, but still need gear to be useful, like waller+ballistaer squire and waller+frosty apprentice. Unfortunately not very lucky on those drops, plus not having Drago severely limits what dps you bring in solo, which again hurts gearing.

tldr:
I agree nm3 to nm4 solo progression is buggered, and I believe nm4 solo difficulty even in high-end gear mostly comes from deck limitation.

Oh and I don`t care about barren lobbies. If you make a game with a "Play private" button, balance solo play.

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People saying solo play is fine need to think long about 

1) is multiplayer supposed to be easier than solo?  ie, 4 players beating maps with 0 defenses

2) if you're heavily overgeared for the content... shouldn't it be easy to solo?

3) if you've overgeared yourself through co op games (or back when there were bugs to exploit - frosty or weapon projectile crit bug) don't you need to be careful about making statements about solo being fine?


Personally, I think solo balance is screwed up.  And multiplayer is way too easy.

I find strange irony in people saying solo is too easy.. but nothing about multiplayer being as easy as it is, especially with maxed gear & good strategies.

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@Pachipachio quote:

People saying solo play is fine need to think long about 

1) is multiplayer supposed to be easier than solo?  ie, 4 players beating maps with 0 defenses

2) if you're heavily overgeared for the content... shouldn't it be easy to solo?

3) if you've overgeared yourself through co op games (or back when there were bugs to exploit - frosty or weapon projectile crit bug) don't you need to be careful about making statements about solo being fine?


Personally, I think solo balance is screwed up.  And multiplayer is way too easy.

I find strange irony in people saying solo is too easy.. but nothing about multiplayer being as easy as it is, especially with maxed gear & good strategies.

only one way to truly know what everyone thinks. Wipe all gear and make everyone try it on even footing.

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@Chappyy quote:


@Pachipachio quote:

People saying solo play is fine need to think long about 

1) is multiplayer supposed to be easier than solo?  ie, 4 players beating maps with 0 defenses

2) if you're heavily overgeared for the content... shouldn't it be easy to solo?

3) if you've overgeared yourself through co op games (or back when there were bugs to exploit - frosty or weapon projectile crit bug) don't you need to be careful about making statements about solo being fine?


Personally, I think solo balance is screwed up.  And multiplayer is way too easy.

I find strange irony in people saying solo is too easy.. but nothing about multiplayer being as easy as it is, especially with maxed gear & good strategies.

only one way to truly know what everyone thinks. Wipe all gear and make everyone try it on even footing.

:d I am always a supporter of a wipe XD. The only way to really get all the legacy stuff out anyway. If there would be a influence vote for a full wipe, i would invest all my points on YES. I don't care much for all the stuff i have.

Though the wipe should be at a milestone to be honest. Like when it reaches the next developement stage.

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Please everyone, solo is easy if you know how to build well and got good strategy, You don't need to build only traps/frost/walls/SA if you didn't know. Every map on NM4 is soloable, and not that hard if you got a decent strategy. 

And no I'm not just talking without any proof : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_wK2j_9I7axKQCUdcNO-JQ

The rest of the maps should be on soon. Already did them, but need to edit and upload. Solo betsy nm4 is also in. So if the hardest map on NM4 is soloable, the rest of the maps are.

I would also like to add that I geared up in solo and group play, but the majority of my gears comes from my solo farming (as I find it easier to solo than to group play in public games).

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@dreamanime quote:

Though the wipe should be at a milestone to be honest. Like when it reaches the next developement stage.

No please. 

Don't chase the remaining veterans.

In one year, hopefully when there will be a lot more players, less than 1% of the community will have legacy gears. And most of the legacy gears aren't that useful (not a lot of 40% FP remaining in the game).

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I don't understand why people think solo nm4 should be inherently harder than nm4 grouped.

Group play is more fun and in solo you have an absolute limit of 4 hero types used. In solo you have higher risk (only one person to repair and dps if there is a problem), you're alone, it's more reptitive and you have less build flexibility.

I think solo play has every right to be easier than playing with the 1 builder 3 leecher standard nm4 team.

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@Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz quote:

this game is pretty sweet and the levels are amazing the detail put into it is so good

but i find the small social lobbies are bad when your lower level solo play is fine you can advance in a pretty fast rate which is good but once you reach nm4 it becomes impossible to get good enough gear alone to solo the maps ive tried countless times and have not completed a solo of a map and it gets very frustrating 


so you need a nm4 set of maps that can be won solo with 600-675 ipower gear (my gear is over 650 ipower on 3 characters and i simply cant beat a map solo) and its really easy to do with 4 players any maps but the incursions so either make nm4 maps easier to solo or make it possible to find a group (why would the game send me to a lobby of people who are not even close to the same ipower as me anyways....)  tbh it has been hard to find other players to play with from day one but it was not so big of a deal when i could actually progress alone .......

Your talking about IPLVL as if it means something.... It doesn't IMO
The game's difficulty levels are perfect from the way I am looking at it.
You stated you managed to get to NM3 pretty fast. which is good. But now hit a wall at NM4.
Do you only have 3 hero's ? If so then I am not sure how you expect to finish the Highest tier of maps with 3 hero's when the Average required for solo is 4 (3 Builders, 1 DPS) and for public its 8 Hero's ( 4 builders, 4 DPS)
I would say to anyone struggling to do nm4 to go back to nm3 and pay attention to item stats and passives.
Trendy have stated a few times that nm3 and nm4 would require you to think harder and use what ever you can to help you I.E Build passives like Hearty Blockade and Trip wire.


@MushroomCake28 quote:

Tbh, NM4 solo is in a good spot atm. I would also say it's a bit too easy. NM4 Solo should be a challenge. If you can clear NM4 Solo with NM3 gears, then what's the purpose of gearing in NM4? 

If they would fix matchmaking and make something similar to DD1, it would help a lot since you'll be able to find some good people with you'll be able to clear a NM4 map.

Agreed, People who say NM4 solo is hard now clearly wasn't trying a few patches back :D
Its much better now.
ATM I find it easier to farm any nm4 map solo than with almost any public group.
The only reason for this is matchmaking (Which trendy is already fixing as we speak)
There are so many people trying to join NM4 matches who clearly do not meet the minimum required for the maps.



@Pachipachio quote:

People saying solo play is fine need to think long about 

1) is multiplayer supposed to be easier than solo?  ie, 4 players beating maps with 0 defenses

2) if you're heavily overgeared for the content... shouldn't it be easy to solo?

3) if you've overgeared yourself through co op games (or back when there were bugs to exploit - frosty or weapon projectile crit bug) don't you need to be careful about making statements about solo being fine?


Personally, I think solo balance is screwed up.  And multiplayer is way too easy.

I find strange irony in people saying solo is too easy.. but nothing about multiplayer being as easy as it is, especially with maxed gear & good strategies.

1 ) Yes multiplayer should 100 % be easier than playing solo IMO!!!

This is a multiplayer game, If it was easier to solo then no one would play multiplayer and it would become a very boring game.

2) If by "heavily overgeared" you mean The player has 700 IPLVL and the map is 650 IPLVL then NO, it should not become easier. But if by "heavily overgeared" you mean same or higher IPLVL with gear that is actually useful, with good stats and passives that complement your build/ setup then yes it should.

3) Many players who had higher end gear actually deleted/sold everything including Hero's and gear so they could see what its like for new players now.
100 % of those people who I have spoken to have stated how much easier it is now progressing than it was before.

I feel Multiplayer and Solo play difficulties are pretty much the same. The only differences are that solo requires 1 player to build everything, Which means they would have needed to play and gear up 3 other hero's. Also in Solo you must stay very alert and repair all lanes without dieing as you have no one to pick up your slack if you do.


@Pachipachio quote:

People saying solo play is fine need to think long about 

1) is multiplayer supposed to be easier than solo?  ie, 4 players beating maps with 0 defenses

2) if you're heavily overgeared for the content... shouldn't it be easy to solo?

3) if you've overgeared yourself through co op games (or back when there were bugs to exploit - frosty or weapon projectile crit bug) don't you need to be careful about making statements about solo being fine?


Personally, I think solo balance is screwed up.  And multiplayer is way too easy.

I find strange irony in people saying solo is too easy.. but nothing about multiplayer being as easy as it is, especially with maxed gear & good strategies.

only one way to truly know what everyone thinks. Wipe all gear and make everyone try it on even footing.

NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO,
OMG No wipes please :P
I think that would be me and a good number of others out if there was another one.

Fin

P.S not sure how any of this comes across, All is meant to be helpful/friendly :D 

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Despite the entirety of the thread title and original post being a single run-on sentence, it is a valid concern. However, disparity between solo and multiplayer difficulty is merely a symptom, not the disease.

The disease is a complete and utter lack of threat enemy variety, as well as a lack of proper implementation for existing threat enemies.

Let me break it down this way - for nightmare solo players, how often does the game require you as a hero to be in more than one place at the same time?

Every. Single. ****. Mission.

Now I will admit that regular maps do a really good job of giving a single threat lane, which is great for solo play. Then waves 5 and 7 come along with 2-3 ogres at the same time and completely destroy the concept of wanting the hero in one place at one time. Incursion maps are even worse - they have zero concept of hero lane response at all. You have to be in every lane on every wave.

So, if you can't be in more than one place at one time, naturally the best solution is to throw in more players who can be where you need them to be in order to address threats. 3 ogres shared among 4 players is a threat, but is not by any means difficult. Most of the time you can out-repair their damage. This is why I can pass NM4 gates incursion practically in my sleep with 3 other competent players, and why I cannot solo it even in ipwr 720 gear using the same strategy.

What the game needs is a "threat response" system, where if you protect your towers from threats that only you as a player can deal with, your towers obliterate everything. The only thing that remotely resembles this is the witherbeast and (to an extent) special enemies + ogres. We really need more variety in what threats we combat.

Basically in order to make solo play and co-op play fun without being fundamentally unfair for me, it would have to pass the following rules:

  • If playing solo, any map can be beaten 100% AFK during combat phase when no threat enemies are present.
  • If playing solo, any map has a 100% failure rate if I AFK during combat phase when threat enemies are present.
  • If playing solo, a player can reasonably address all threat enemies during combat phase.
  • If playing co-op, the number and variety of threat enemies scale with the number of players present.
  • If playing co-op, the team cannot reasonably address all threat enemies if all players are not pulling their weight.

Once hero combat is shifted to addressing threats that only heroes can take care of, that will be the point where solo play and co-op play start to become equally fun and interchangeable to play.

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@Naxtilian quote:


@Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz quote:

this game is pretty sweet and the levels are amazing the detail put into it is so good

but i find the small social lobbies are bad when your lower level solo play is fine you can advance in a pretty fast rate which is good but once you reach nm4 it becomes impossible to get good enough gear alone to solo the maps ive tried countless times and have not completed a solo of a map and it gets very frustrating 


so you need a nm4 set of maps that can be won solo with 600-675 ipower gear (my gear is over 650 ipower on 3 characters and i simply cant beat a map solo) and its really easy to do with 4 players any maps but the incursions so either make nm4 maps easier to solo or make it possible to find a group (why would the game send me to a lobby of people who are not even close to the same ipower as me anyways....)  tbh it has been hard to find other players to play with from day one but it was not so big of a deal when i could actually progress alone .......

Your talking about IPLVL as if it means something.... It doesn't IMO
The game's difficulty levels are perfect from the way I am looking at it.
You stated you managed to get to NM3 pretty fast. which is good. But now hit a wall at NM4.
Do you only have 3 hero's ? If so then I am not sure how you expect to finish the Highest tier of maps with 3 hero's when the Average required for solo is 4 (3 Builders, 1 DPS) and for public its 8 Hero's ( 4 builders, 4 DPS)
I would say to anyone struggling to do nm4 to go back to nm3 and pay attention to item stats and passives.
Trendy have stated a few times that nm3 and nm4 would require you to think harder and use what ever you can to help you I.E Build passives like Hearty Blockade and Trip wire.


@MushroomCake28 quote:

Tbh, NM4 solo is in a good spot atm. I would also say it's a bit too easy. NM4 Solo should be a challenge. If you can clear NM4 Solo with NM3 gears, then what's the purpose of gearing in NM4? 

If they would fix matchmaking and make something similar to DD1, it would help a lot since you'll be able to find some good people with you'll be able to clear a NM4 map.

Agreed, People who say NM4 solo is hard now clearly wasn't trying a few patches back :D
Its much better now.
ATM I find it easier to farm any nm4 map solo than with almost any public group.
The only reason for this is matchmaking (Which trendy is already fixing as we speak)
There are so many people trying to join NM4 matches who clearly do not meet the minimum required for the maps.



@Pachipachio quote:

People saying solo play is fine need to think long about 

1) is multiplayer supposed to be easier than solo?  ie, 4 players beating maps with 0 defenses

2) if you're heavily overgeared for the content... shouldn't it be easy to solo?

3) if you've overgeared yourself through co op games (or back when there were bugs to exploit - frosty or weapon projectile crit bug) don't you need to be careful about making statements about solo being fine?


Personally, I think solo balance is screwed up.  And multiplayer is way too easy.

I find strange irony in people saying solo is too easy.. but nothing about multiplayer being as easy as it is, especially with maxed gear & good strategies.

1 ) Yes multiplayer should 100 % be easier than playing solo IMO!!!

This is a multiplayer game, If it was easier to solo then no one would play multiplayer and it would become a very boring game.

2) If by "heavily overgeared" you mean The player has 700 IPLVL and the map is 650 IPLVL then NO, it should not become easier. But if by "heavily overgeared" you mean same or higher IPLVL with gear that is actually useful, with good stats and passives that complement your build/ setup then yes it should.

3) Many players who had higher end gear actually deleted/sold everything including Hero's and gear so they could see what its like for new players now.
100 % of those people who I have spoken to have stated how much easier it is now progressing than it was before.

I feel Multiplayer and Solo play difficulties are pretty much the same. The only differences are that solo requires 1 player to build everything, Which means they would have needed to play and gear up 3 other hero's. Also in Solo you must stay very alert and repair all lanes without dieing as you have no one to pick up your slack if you do.


@Pachipachio quote:

People saying solo play is fine need to think long about 

1) is multiplayer supposed to be easier than solo?  ie, 4 players beating maps with 0 defenses

2) if you're heavily overgeared for the content... shouldn't it be easy to solo?

3) if you've overgeared yourself through co op games (or back when there were bugs to exploit - frosty or weapon projectile crit bug) don't you need to be careful about making statements about solo being fine?


Personally, I think solo balance is screwed up.  And multiplayer is way too easy.

I find strange irony in people saying solo is too easy.. but nothing about multiplayer being as easy as it is, especially with maxed gear & good strategies.

only one way to truly know what everyone thinks. Wipe all gear and make everyone try it on even footing.

NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO,
OMG No wipes please :P
I think that would be me and a good number of others out if there was another one.

Fin

P.S not sure how any of this comes across, All is meant to be helpful/friendly :D 

no i have 4 builders my mage is just missing a few frosty power gear and then ill full 650+ ipower on all 4 characters yes im getting passives tripwire amped up hearty blockade and frosty i even have a mage staff and bow from harb and a few other gears upgraded above 700 i power 

no i did not just hit a wall at nm4 i hit a wall on all nm levels but once i grinded out the gears and passives mainly it became possible im missing 3-4 pieces of gear from liferoot on my mage have at least 6 nice piece of gear from the harb and put over 500000 of gold in upgrades i still cant beat gates

im considering killing off my monk and making another archer but his auras are so good its just not going to happen ..........

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no i have 4 builders my mage is just missing a few frosty power gear and then ill full 650+ ipower on all 4 characters yes im getting passives tripwire amped up hearty blockade and frosty i even have a mage staff and bow from harb and a few other gears upgraded above 700 i power 

no i did not just hit a wall at nm4 i hit a wall on all nm levels but once i grinded out the gears and passives mainly it became possible im missing 3-4 pieces of gear from liferoot on my mage have at least 6 nice piece of gear from the harb and put over 500000 of gold in upgrades i still cant beat gates

im considering killing off my monk and making another archer but his auras are so good its just not going to happen ..........

Are you rolling with 3 builders and 1 dps ? Its the best way to solo atm imo.
I would recommend starting off with a dps instead of monk until you get more comfortable with it, then you can really start playing around with different builds and defences. 

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Too easy / too hard is relative. If Stephen Hawking complains that the college astronmy class he's taking is too easy but the students have an average D- does that mean the class is too easy or too hard? The truth is somewhere in the middle. You don't make maps so only the best of the best can beat it, you also don't build it so that people with low level gear can (which they can't). 

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People who say nm4 is easy are running good gear with good passives and probably a dps with a Dragolich. If you aren't using optimal gear or a dps or a dragolich it is a whole different proposition.

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What I'm trying now is a hybrid wiz (walls+frost), aura monk and traptress + DPS. It works fine. My frosts took a hit since I cant wear my chilling touch but still it works really well.

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