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Fozzie

Why the meta is trap centric

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                                          Tier2           Tier3        Tier4        Tier5

Flamethrower                 149.99%    133.34%  125.00%  120.00%

Flameburst                      150.01%    133.33%  125.00%  120.00%

Cannon                             165.00%    139.40%  128.26%  122.03%

Heavy Cannon                 169.21%    139.41%  128.25%  122.04%

Explosive Trap                 200.00%    150.02%  133.33%  125.00%

Elemental Trap                200.03%    148.98%  134.25%  125.00%

Lightning Aura                 164.98%    139.39%  128.26%  122.04%

LSA                                     149.99%    133.34%  125.00%  120.00%

Why would you use anything else if you get double damage on first tier upgrade, the percentages are the amount of DPS increase based on the previous tiers damage.

'Heavy cannon' for my squire has less damage on tier 5 than the normal has on tier 1. No wonder no-one is crazy enough to use it, 'uber' I think not.

My suggestion is to bring them all in line with the trap increases and see how it shakes out

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Pretty simple answer here, you'd use something different if it had more DPS than traps initially by an amount that's comparable to the difference of upgrade effectiveness.

They implemented this specifically because if everything is in line with traps then it's a huge waste of mana to upgrade traps.  They're 20 DU and their DPS reflects that.


ex.

Let's call it 3k dps on traps.  And 6k on flamethrower.  Putting in 50 mana into a trap nets you 3k DPS.  And 50 mana in flamethrower also nets you 3k DPS.  If flamethrower has any more initial dps then it's better to upgrade those first.  Ignoring differences in range of course and the fact that 6k for flamethrower is really low


It's more mana efficient to upgrade non-traps first for damage increases.  Traps still have the highest investment potential though.  It just costs 2x - 3x as much mana upgrading a traps build than the other builds because you can put so much more of them down.


A better reason why the meta is trap centric is because frosties are a cheaper boost aura with about 4x the effectiveness +100 defense speed + the best slow effect.

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Yeah what the op said is part of the reason traps are op. 

Though I believe the main reason is still the frosty build, the things just too op, devs dug themselves quite the hole making that build. It's better then the old boost auras when people considered them mandatory so it's easy to understand why something so similar is op.

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Traps are the weakest defenses of all in terms of DPS, I've seen traps up to 3.2k DPS t1, but cannons and flame towers over 10k at t1, the problem isn't the DPS, the problem as Pachipachio said, is that is more cost effective to build traps than any other defense AND over NM2 pretty much anything 1 shot any tower, so building traps gives you the safety that nothing other than walls can be destroyed, and you only repair traps when really low, you only use mana on repairing walls, I've seen cannon/flame builds in every NM, but you really need to know almost everything of maps and tower placement to make it work, so it's easier to only build traps, walls and frosties.

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@DLT FrostSaker quote:

Traps are the weakest defenses of all in terms of DPS, I've seen traps up to 3.2k DPS t1, but cannons and flame towers over 10k at t1, the problem isn't the DPS, the problem as Pachipachio said, is that is more cost effective to build traps than any other defense AND over NM2 pretty much anything 1 shot any tower, so building traps gives you the safety that nothing other than walls can be destroyed, and you only repair traps when really low, you only use mana on repairing walls, I've seen cannon/flame builds in every NM, but you really need to know almost everything of maps and tower placement to make it work, so it's easier to only build traps, walls and frosties.

Cant say I agree with you on that.. Sure the flame and cannons can do 10k.. But they only hit a single target. While a mine will prob be hitting 3 Targets on average. If i have 3 traps they will prob hit most of the targets... The towers on the other hand again may hit 3 targets but has an increased possiblity of shooting at 1 enemy.

That already causes the cannons to loose out. The comment of the towers being destroyed is a slight issue but overall not a large one Other then for the Flamethrower tower which would give out decent damage but easily destroyed.Add the frosty to this mix and towers Fall behind incredible fast. 


Heres to new passives to assist Towers

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Honestly, it's less about towers dying easily and more about their exceedingly gimped range. Even with full vector corrector, your towers don't quite reach where they need to reach easily while maintaining a safe range behind bara to avoid imploding. This design choice has become their most major weakness.

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@roboticaust quote:

Honestly, it's less about towers dying easily and more about their exceedingly gimped range. Even with full vector corrector, your towers don't quite reach where they need to reach easily while maintaining a safe range behind bara to avoid imploding. This design choice has become their most major weakness.

I agree with [[63897,users]]  but apprentice towers do less damage and have less crit dmg than cannons, so explosion area of the bursttower should be higher too.

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mhmm, it isn't because traps get to use a boost aura that's way stronger, can stack, adds defense speed, and slows enemies

yeah it's not that, it's the other things 


lol

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Or the old reverse frosty effect when it was 'bugged' and we could place them in a cluster with towers. That was a lot of fun.

I agree with Pachipachio Traps with their upgrade advantage AND Frosty stack AND Frosty boost AND Frosty speed AND trapstress with uber does magic and physical damage.

Also agree with buttstalion due to only 4 heroes in play traptress wall;er forsty mage and dps is another no brainer. 

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@In.Session quote:

just need to bring legacy boost back and all will be fair. aslong as it doesnt work on traps or auras.

the not-working-on-trap-and-aura is too cumbersome imo

just make boost aura strong again but make it have a hitbox and have actual HP so it can be targeted and destroyed

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@Pachipachio quote:

the not-working-on-trap-and-aura is too cumbersome imo

just make boost aura strong again but make it have a hitbox and have actual HP so it can be targeted and destroyed

How about they just make a build for boost aura that is as good as frost?

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@alexstonge25 quote:


@Pachipachio quote:

the not-working-on-trap-and-aura is too cumbersome imo

just make boost aura strong again but make it have a hitbox and have actual HP so it can be targeted and destroyed

How about they just make a build for boost aura that is as good as frost?

because then it'd just be used in frost

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The scaling is only one of the reasons. There are many reasons.

1. Half the DU of flameburst and cannons, meaning you have to mathematically compare the towers at a rate of 2 traps to 1 tower. The DPS loss is lessened if you think of it this way.

2. Frosty vastly boosts their attack rate and DPS, meaning the aforementioned DPS loss is near non-existent.

3. They are untargetable.

4. They cover more area, more consistently, than towers. Tower's range is only as far as the nearest enemy. Example;

This looks like a lot of range right? Sure, if the enemies are all bunched up and stunned at the tower's max range, but that's not realistic.

If the enemies are standing here, then the tower's range is effectively reduced by over half. This is quite common in higher difficulties.

With traps though, this isn't the case. If you set up a typical linear trap build, then traps' range never get effected by where the enemies are standing. On the contrary, the further down the line the enemies extend, the stronger the traps get, as the enemies will start triggering more and more traps.

5. Since DD2 has such strong ranged threats (javs, summoners, and witherbeasts, who like to set up shop behind the front line), point #4 is intensely amplified in significance.

6. Given point #3, they are easier to spec for, as you can pretty much disregard tower HP, and shoot straight for power, crit%, and crit damage.

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Traps, without frosty power, are arguably balanced. They're still the best on maps like onslaught where you can T5 all of them, but on standard maps and incursions, high-DU defenses are actually better since you can T4/T5 them (while you can only get T3-ish with traps).

Frostbite towers do not require any upgrades whatsoever, meaning the mana you would have to spread thinner on traps, you can hit the same T4's/T5's on traps as you could a 50-DU defense. The problem here is not traps; its the frostbite tower with its stupidly effective compounding passives. Remove this passive from the game, and I think we'd start to see some other metas arise out of the ashes.

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Or we could just have empowered changed to a frosty power like status that works on towers only.  Just thinking outside the box here

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I think Gigazelle is on the money on this one.

Remove frosty power\frosty fire from the frostbite tower

Make monk boost 20 DU and give the monk a new staff with a speed boost amount.

Make monk boost have an effective boost not the pointless amount it has now.

So Apprentice becomes a damage dealer not just a booster

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@Fozzie quote:

I think Gigazelle is on the money on this one.

Remove frosty power\frosty fire from the frostbite tower

Make monk boost 20 DU and give the monk a new staff with a speed boost amount.

Make monk boost have an effective boost not the pointless amount it has now.

So Apprentice becomes a damage dealer not just a booster

<.< I see the relation between lines 1, 2, and 5


what do lines 3 and 4 even seek to accomplish?

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You don't need math to explain why the meta is trap centric. All you need is to understand that this game is still in development and not complete. They are still working on new builds and fixing existing builds.

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Only a couple people touched on a few key points:

1) Traps are AOE damage and can hit multiple enemies.  Having single target towers have to waste their time killing weak mobs while the strong enemies wreck havok is just bad.

2) The hero deck has 4 slots and the huntress can build both magic and physical damage.  It's just super convenient.

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@DKperfection quote:
@Droelie quote:

YOU ARE THE META! IF YOU DONT CHANGE NO ONE WILL
DONT BOW TO THE META, CHANGE IT! ITS NOT IMPOSSIBLE

POISON DART IS THE NEW META!!!!!!

Skyguard is the new meta, wheeeeee

But seriously, looking forward to some real deal tower rebalancing. It's time. Some issues with towers have been in the game for way too long (cannon uber anyone? yes/no? it's basically just a running joke by now), so barely anyone actually bothers checking how good a flame or cannons can now be with gear maxed out on passives.


@draemn quote:

Only a couple people touched on a few key points:

1) Traps are AOE damage and can hit multiple enemies.  Having single target towers have to waste their time killing weak mobs while the strong enemies wreck havok is just bad.

2) The hero deck has 4 slots and the huntress can build both magic and physical damage.  It's just super convenient.

Traps also don't get targeted and destroyed. All you need to have is DH on at least once piece of gear and your traps can last the whole map - and you're gonna upgrade them anyway, which resets the health. 


Traps are always safe, while it takes just one kobold to destroy a few cannons or flames at once (no, not in an ideal setup, but we all know kobolds sometimes justo YOLO past barricades, or you get the death from above when someone fails with air).

Right now there are just too many advantages to using traps rather than towers. And by no means should those advantages be nuked - it's a matter of giving other towers something to work with, to possibly make them just as good as current traps. 

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Ok, I figured out what the real problem is. The real problem is every person in this thread doesn't understand that Dungeon Defenders 2 is still in alpha. The game is still being worked on. Passives are still being created. You guys are just being ridiculous. As more of the planned builds are implemented more towers will become viable in the end game. Period. That's just all there is to say about it.

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