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PvP design concept (Work in Progress)


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During tonights stream, PvP kept being brought up over and over in the comments so I decided to share some little idea I've had since the whole "we might be a moba" thing was unveiled as to how I thought this might work using my existing experience with dd1 and dde. I would LIKE to ultimately make a model of the idea in udk (same engine as the game) to share this more visually, but for now I'll stick to wordplay.


The concept of PvP in a game incredibly structured towards PvE is just riddled with flaws. Trendy even agrees on this topic. So how do we go about getting a game mode like this without causing a major issue with our gear and how the game functions you may ask... well we design a PvE concept competition of sorts.


Map Design

  1. I'm loosely basing this idea off mobas so hear me out here. We would need 2 encampments with players to each. This means 2 teams of 4.
  2. We would need lanes with spawners heading towards each encampment.
  3. The map would have to be mirrored so that neither side receives an imbalance

Gameplay Rules

  1. There needs to be a no build zones established. Meaning anything past a certain point is deemed neutral and enemy territory and building is simply not allowed in those two areas.
  2. Players can't deal damage to one another unless you overstep your bounds into enemy territory, at which point you are now targetable to the other teams attacks (but you cannot target them back). Basically player damage is way too high to really have a PvP skirmish of any sorts without adding in nonsense to balance this. But using this as a way to encourage a risk/reward scenario... I'm totally cool with that lol.
  3. You get one build phase and one build phase only at the start of the match. This means you will get enough gems to fill in the du amount. No more, no less.
  4. Enemies will still drop gems. The amount of gems will be drastically lower than in normal gameplay. This means you can upgrade during the match. It also means you can risk being killed to sabotoge an enemies gems. If someone's clearly letting gems pileup, then go rambo that pile for an advantage.
  5. Dying will be met with a longer timer than usual. Thinking 10 to 15 seconds sounds reasonable here.
  6. Enemy spawners will be infinite and will mirror as well. This doesn't mean every spawner will be identical however. It means resists will match as will the flow out of them. IE: left lane is mag resist and pumps out the same mobs on both sides of the mirror.
  7. Enemy levels will ramp up similar to onslaught but not via rounds as this is one solid endless wave. Also boss spawns rates will ramp up. The idea here is that by 20 minutes in, it's total crazytown with countless bosses and difficult mobs like high level drakkens and dark mages. And that no team in the absolute best of gear can endlessly keep going.
  8. Enemies meant for the other team will be immune to your team, so no worries about accidentally helping the enemy out with ranged heroes.
  9. Wave starts when all players have pressed G. Pretty straight forward.
  10. No drops will be given during this (meaning no drops off mobs). But rather the winning team will receive a chest whos quality and contents will be determined purely based on how far into the match you go. Thinking the longer the battle, the more you get to avoid abusive quick win tactics such as a whole team throwing the match to give others more farm. So say the winning team makes it 25 minutes before the other teams defenses fall, then they should receive a chest of legendary quality with roughly 3x more contents than a normal end map chest (just an example since it will clearly be based off an algorithm with a cap that Trendy determines is fitting).
  11. Queuing for this mode will strictly require having a full party of 4 already. If someone leaves during the match, his/her team will have to carry on without them and be given a voting option to forfeit.
  12. Difficult will also be locked in at the highest difficulty in game currently (atm nm4). The reason for this is to prevent absorbantly long matches in lower difficulties with nm4 geared players carrying a team. This also means the first few waves of mobs should be on par with the lower end nm4 difficulty mobs and of course scale up to ridiculousness from there.
  • This is an extra suggestion that could be map specific. But maybe map specific things such as A) controlling an objective in neutral territory gives mobs a buff on the enemy teams side B) gold ogre spawns on both sides and the first side to down it gets a temporary damage increase C) a timed environmental trigger that either team could activate once every 5 minutes that causes an extreme burning effect on the other teams defenses. Just a few ideas. I'm sure we could easily come up with more.
Unique Gear
Since this is a unique mode, unique low drop change gear should be included. This is totally up in the air as Trendy will do what they deem fit. My suggestion though would be to have unique weapons with a passive that doubles stolen gems taken from the enemy team.

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@roboticaust quote:

 So how do we go about getting a game mode like this without causing a major issue with our gear and how the game functions you may ask... well we design a PvE concept competition of sorts.


Yep this. PVP does not need to always hitting each other and figthing directly with another player.

There are quit a few games out where players fight each other by completing an objective rather and hindering the other that way. There could be game modes (maps) for 1v1 2v2 4v4. If enemys (mobs) are defeated they could spawn on the map of the other players, maybe in lvl increased or stronger one. Also maybe objectives on the map could be build to support own players or actually damaging / hindering the towers of the other players. There are quit alot of ways to go and do it and it could be a nice and refreshing way and also unique if done right. Which would give DD2 another aspect =), competition between players and playstyles instead of just watching bugged inspect and looking who has the 2-3 dp higher or lower.

Other modes for this type of competition could come in too, like who kills the most mobs the fastest way as an excample. With how the spawner currently work it is possible to implement it in many ways.

I kinda would like it, because pvp is always a nice way to give players something to do and give them other options for fun then just grinding one map over and over again.

Edit:

Another mode could be "1 hero" so you have either to choose for dps or defense builder, everything has benefits and advantages on their own.

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If PVP would exist I am thinking something like the winter maul wars from wc3. Where each side builds a defense and every wave mobs are sent, yet you can send more mobs to the enemy. This increases the mana income you get per wave, yet costs you mana. 


It is still balanced to pve, so we don't have awkward imbalances. 

Another thing that is added in WMW, is that you get one race (class) up until wave 25, then you unlock a second race (class). So you could do the same thing in this game. Start with one character, build and defend for a few waves, then allow you to pick a second character you can switch between. This will cause for some interesting choices in countering you're opponent by sending certain units depends on their defense style. 


I'd say give the ability to walk to the enemy side to get an idea of what he is building. You could have a blind mode, but I think it would be interesting. 


No form of pvp where you could attack your enemy or towers would ever be balanced as we saw in the last game. 


If you haven't played WMW, here is a small video (yes the graphics are bad, yes the game looks weird. But it's a ton of fun. And this pvp mode was based off of a very popular PVE mode of a similar game. The enemies have to hit your lightningbolt then go to the next area, in this video it is 1v1, but it would go up to teams of 3-5 depending on map. The enemies do not attack, it is more of coming up with mazes that keep the enemies within your tower range for the longest amount of time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUFsvmTBnn4) 

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The 1 hero only idea is interesting but I kinda foresee some wankery associated with this. Namely 1 waller and 3 dps, then building as many baras as humanly possible and sticking a dps to each lane with the waller subbing in to tank during key moments. That doesn't feel right to me. I opted for a more "co-op" feel because I'd like for any team based PvP to feel very dependant on your team, figuring out a strategy and what you're bringing prior to the queue, etc. But I totally agree with you here. There are a variety of routes to go and things to try out. This is purely how my brain saw it as viable when it was first announced and figured tossing it out there might inspire a new mode in the future. I think this would be a great way to kill time between grinding rather than sitting in tavern on a chandelier commenting on the awful conversations being had.

Any reason to add more reasons to play and more reasons to make friends with other good players is more than enough reason to offer this up.

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chaosparadox

I'll definitely give them both a glance over. In my mind I wasn't picturing other teams defenses being used against other players though, but rather you could attack an invading player. Also not really thinking it should be possible to attack another players defenses either. Through environmental ways, sure that's fine as it's a controlled mechanism. Scoping out builds should be possible during the initial build phase as the match hasnt started... you just can't build, upgrade, repair, etc in zones that don't belong to your team. But once it starts, you're a targetable entity once you leave your borders.

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This is not the type of game I play for Pvp, but if it were to go a mobaish type pvp system id hope neautral camps of minions would give you an advantage by spawning more minions form yours to another with random buffs appearing on the mini map giving your minions buffs such as tenacios grounded speedy mighty etc.

Id much rather it turn into a team based objective type of pvp rather than a fight each other and epeen most dps. I also dont think the abilitys on heroes and cooldowns on them are currently balanced enough and making a balance just for a pvp takes away from the main portion of the game.

Taking a look at some tower defences and mobas/footman wars on wc3 could be a good idea, possibly giving people the chance to pick summoner/builder/dps

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@In.Session

This is kind of the route I'm suggestion, as you said it.  I don't want camps of minions or jungling or any of that silliness.  I'm suggesting it be a competition of team vs team to see who can outlast the other... just with a little sabotage included for fun sake.

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@In.Session quote:

Did anyone ever play ENFO's on wc3? That would be a sick mode to have on this game.

Gonna be brutally honest here, wc3 came out when I was in high school.  I was too busy getting laid and doing drugs to care about videogames for those 4 years.  I know thats sad to admit, but high school was full party mode for me.

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@roboticaust quote:


@In.Session quote:

Did anyone ever play ENFO's on wc3? That would be a sick mode to have on this game.

Gonna be brutally honest here, wc3 came out when I was in high school.  I was too busy getting laid and doing drugs to care about videogames for those 4 years.  I know thats sad to admit, but high school was full party mode for me.

Interesting.. lol. im glad your off the drugs and getting laid now? Check it out tho it's a interesting game mode.

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my condolences friend, you have become a watcher of the core,

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher of the core. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Cores Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

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Very nice idea [[63897,users]].

I love it. 

The thing is, what is the purpose of the neutral zone? You could literally just put the two zone side by side. However I like the concept of a neutral zone and would like to rework that zone. For example how about a mechanic that can influence the mob spawning flow in the neutral zone? Teams can send one teammate to fight over a flag, or something? I dunno lol.


But your idea is amazing!   

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I should've clarified it better. Let's think of neutral zone as the overlapping intersections of enemy territories. Basically the same thing as enemy territory but you can pew pew back. This could allow for some fun map based mechanics such as an enviromental trap that does stuff, a special boss that spawns 20 minutes in, control point that activates when only one team is within it, etc. So many ideas of what to do here to make it so a dominating team can push the tide further in their favor to end the map sooner.

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@alexstonge25 quote:

But should also have a mechanic that influences the flow of enemies If not, it's just two teams playing on parallel.

it's all a possibility.  I did suggest buffing mob as one of the perks, I never detailed how ;)

Ally suggested some kind of team leader idea and allowing the team leader to periodically spend points towards what comes out of the enemy spawners. So that it becomes a double edged sword... meaning you could give them harder things but then their gem intake would go up if they handled it well. Doable but would require waves instead of a single wave and I'm not too thrilled at the idea of 8 people wanking around deciding how to set stuff every few minutes. Adding more players to content means more downtime and I thought it best to alleviate that through a set it and done method.

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Definitely agree that it shouldn't be waves. But investing points to influence spawns is a great idea actually. No need to have waves to make it work. I can be something some special enemies can drop some "points" and any player can pick them up and spend them in a kinda machine in the neutral zone to influence the spawns without having a build phase (meaning spending points while into action will make some additional enemies spawn.)

Can be interesting because enemy players can jump in your territory to steal those drop points. 

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I really enjoy the risk/reward aspect.  I'm glad someone else does.  Would make matches intense rather than just a plain ol build off.

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There was a pretty interesting pvp concept during the Influence Week event they had.  It got quite a bit of votes, but not quite one of the top few. Hopefully they do explore this further because I think it would increase sales of skins and such (Better opportunities to show them off)>

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@Alhanalem quote:

There was a pretty interesting pvp concept during the Influence Week event they had.  It got quite a bit of votes, but not quite one of the top few. Hopefully they do explore this further because I think it would increase sales of skins and such (Better opportunities to show them off)>

True. It was a great idea. However, I don't see this being worked on soon as there is plenty of other things Trendy still needs to do/fix.

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Difficulty should be based on the average ipwr of all players, or the highest ipwr of any player, that stops insanely long games with nm4 gear at low levels, without making it endgame exclusive.


Also I think players should definitely be able to attack others defenses, that should be something you have to keep in mind when building, it would make builds way less repetitive.


I also think you should be able to cause more monsters to spawn on both sides, making it a risk reward element to spawning more monsters, as you could wind up just suiciding. (would need a limit to how much you could spawn to stop people dropping tons of walls to stall and then summoning an unstoppable horde.)

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@braydon180 quote:

Difficulty should be based on the average ipwr of all players, or the highest ipwr of any player, that stops insanely long games with nm4 gear at low levels, without making it endgame exclusive.


Also I think players should definitely be able to attack others defenses, that should be something you have to keep in mind when building, it would make builds way less repetitive.


I also think you should be able to cause more monsters to spawn on both sides, making it a risk reward element to spawning more monsters, as you could wind up just suiciding. (would need a limit to how much you could spawn to stop people dropping tons of walls to stall and then summoning an unstoppable horde.)

Attacking other players defenses? Then it'd just turn into a game of who can keep one shotting the frosties.  Naw that doesn't feel right.

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@roboticaust quote:

Attacking other players defenses? Then it'd just turn into a game of who can keep one shotting the frosties.  Naw that doesn't feel right.

So because frost traps wouldn't be so op in it, that's bad? I don't see it as bad that people might have to use other strategies.

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@braydon180 quote:


@roboticaust quote:

Attacking other players defenses? Then it'd just turn into a game of who can keep one shotting the frosties.  Naw that doesn't feel right.

So because frost traps wouldn't be so op in it, that's bad? I don't see it as bad that people might have to use other strategies.

Even if your team builds zero frosts, zero towers, just traps and walls... how long do you think it takes a hunt to eat 300k+ hp off a bara?  No dude, bad idea.

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