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hero deck is a ?

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@Shinnyshin quote:


@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:


@MegaHamster7 quote:

Also, you don't need all those characters to win. You're obviously being obtuse.

You are obviously being dishonest. Having access to every specialized build at once would give a clear advantage. It is self evidently true.

...but this advantage already exists.  The better players with organized groups have Frostprentice, Fireprentice, CannonSquire, WallSquire, Traptress, Lightning Monk/Purge Monk, and maybe Boost Monk.  And Tank Squire, DPS Apprentice, and DPS Huntress.  That's not even including the more niche things like PDTress and Blazetress.


The better players I see?  All have many or all of these specific builds, not just one of each builder.  And they often run with other people who similarly coordinate their hero decks.


So who exactly is hurt by this lack of access?  Solo players and solo-queuers.  Exactly the people we don't need to be keeping down.  Joining the queue these days feels like playing the lottery--I need at least one dps and can't possibly cover all the bases by myself, so I have to guess what everyone else will have felt inclined to bring.  Is this really the status quo you're so committed to defending, considering the "clear advantage" already exists among the top players who're already profiting massively off it?

That's a great point too. You do have to guess what is going to be useful. I hate those games where you turn up and someone asks if anyone has a good waller/trapper/cannoner/frosties/seren monk and you have to say yeah I do but not in my current deck.

What a major yawner.

I don't see how the hero deck fosters team play at all but it's great at killing the fun.

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@Shinnyshin quote:


@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:


@MegaHamster7 quote:

Also, you don't need all those characters to win. You're obviously being obtuse.

You are obviously being dishonest. Having access to every specialized build at once would give a clear advantage. It is self evidently true.

...but this advantage already exists.  The better players with organized groups have Frostprentice, Fireprentice, CannonSquire, WallSquire, Traptress, Lightning Monk/Purge Monk, and maybe Boost Monk.  And Tank Squire, DPS Apprentice, and DPS Huntress.  That's not even including the more niche things like PDTress and Blazetress.


The better players I see?  All have many or all of these specific builds, not just one of each builder.  And they often run with other people who similarly coordinate their hero decks.


So who exactly is hurt by this lack of access?  Solo players and solo-queuers.  Exactly the people we don't need to be keeping down.  Joining the queue these days feels like playing the lottery--I need at least one dps and can't possibly cover all the bases by myself, so I have to guess what everyone else will have felt inclined to bring.  Is this really the status quo you're so committed to defending, considering the "clear advantage" already exists among the top players who're already profiting massively off it?

So what you're actually complaining about is the fact that Dugeon Defenders II is a multiplayer game and not a single player game. You're just going to have to get over that.

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That's not what he's complaining about at all. He's arguing for both solo players and players who are playing multiplayer but haven't got an established player base of people to play with - "solo-queuers". You're deliberately trying to sideline his argument with one you just made up. You're not even answering the counter-points he brought up to your arguments. Why not?

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Most of his posts consist of derogatory remarks about whining and complaining players. He doesn't actually provide any insight to his side of the argument just "no you're wrong".

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Hero Deck was a great Idea that simply did not work out and unfairly punishes Solo players while not promoting specialization in groups.

It does not make the game pay to win if you remove it, it simply gives players more options and variety.

I have confidence that Trendy will eventually stop defending the design decision and drop it but I feel it will not happen anytime soon.

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It's easy enough to say removing the hero deck won't make the game P2W... But im certain that a ton of people would get right in here and complain if the herodeck was removed and more characters were still only obtainable via gems. My guess is that Trendy have the herodeck just to make sure nobody can call the game P2W....

The thing is just.... Whats the best strategy to optimize profit for Trendy? The chance of being labelled P2W or keeping the fanbase pissed at a feature that impacts the game in such a major way... Until Trendy figure out the answer, we'll just have to wait and see what happens... It's not like Trendy don't know how badly the herodeck is annoying basically everyone.

Now from my personal view as a player who's always playing in a group of coordinated players, the herodeck doesn't rly bother me (just like mentioned earlier in this thread). When i know i only need to bring 1-2 builders i can always bring at least 1, usually 2 different DPS heroes, so i'm not restricted the slighest really. But i do feel that the best thing would be to get rid of the herodeck for the better of the solo people who either play solo or play with randoms.

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Simple PTW fix:  Remove the hero deck.  Refund gems spent on buying character slots.  Stop charging for character slots.



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That removes one of their revenue sources though so I doubt that will be a viable solution for them, as much as I agree with you. So long as the default number of slots allows enough heroes to do the maps (which it currently does) I don't think it's PTW anyway.

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@MegaHamster7 quote:

That removes one of their revenue sources though so I doubt that will be a viable solution for them, as much as I agree with you. So long as the default number of slots allows enough heroes to do the maps (which it currently does) I don't think it's PTW anyway.

The loss in revenue should more than be made up for by the increased incentive to buy multiple costumes and a larger happier player base.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

Removing the hero deck will turn DD2 into a pay to win game for people who unlock hero slots. The hero deck puts the same limitations on everyone. Without a hero deck then someone can buy a bunch of hero slots and have...

  1. Blockade Squire (Hero Health, Defense Health, Hearty Blockade)
  2. Harpoon Squire (Defense Power, Defense Health, Black Arrow, Speedy Harpoon, Splody Harpoon)
  3. Cannon Squire (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Iron Core, Shellshock)
  4. Training Dummy Squire with the new Harbinger weapon
  5. Tank Squire (Hero Health, Physical Resist, Magical Resist, Troll Face, Provoke)
  6. DPS Squire
  7. Frosty Apprentice (Defense Power, Defense Health, Frost Fire, Frosty Power, Snowstorm)
  8. Flame Burst/Thrower Apprentice (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Pyromania, Vector Corrector)
  9. Earthshatter Apprentice (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Vector Corrector, Fault Line)
  10. DPS Apprentice (Ability Power, Hero Damage, Ancient Magics, Arcanist, [passive that increases arcane volley damage])
  11. Arcane Barrier Apprentice with the new harbinger weapon
  12. Traptress (Defense Power, Defense Health, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Volatile Schematics, Tripwire)
  13. Poison Tower Huntress (Defense Power, Defense Health, Envenom, Explosive Poison, Towering Poison, Speedy Darts)
  14. Blaze Huntress (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Victory Smell, Phoenix's Luck, Phoenix Flame, Volatile Schematics)
  15. DPS Huntress (Hero Damage, Hero Crit Damage, Ability Power, Hero Crit Chance, Flameageddon, Flashbang, Shrapnel)
  16. Geyser Huntress with the new harbinger weapon
  17. Boost Monk
  18. LSA Monk
  19. Serenity Monk
  20. DPS Monk
  21. Other builds that I cant think of right now

So obviously 1 player who buys up hero slots and has access to all of these different builds at the same time has a pretty big advantage over F2P players who can only pick from 4 of these builds.

Dude, this just blew my mind.  How did you know I had 20 hero slots with these exact hero specs?  You ***ing mind ninja!

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@Zuqual quote:


@MegaHamster7 quote:

That removes one of their revenue sources though so I doubt that will be a viable solution for them, as much as I agree with you. So long as the default number of slots allows enough heroes to do the maps (which it currently does) I don't think it's PTW anyway.

The loss in revenue should more than be made up for by the increased incentive to buy multiple costumes and a larger happier player base.

That is totally true and here's hoping that's how they're thinking about it!

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@MegaHamster7 quote:


@Zuqual quote:


@MegaHamster7 quote:

That removes one of their revenue sources though so I doubt that will be a viable solution for them, as much as I agree with you. So long as the default number of slots allows enough heroes to do the maps (which it currently does) I don't think it's PTW anyway.

The loss in revenue should more than be made up for by the increased incentive to buy multiple costumes and a larger happier player base.

That is totally true and here's hoping that's how they're thinking about it!

If they make the slots purchasable by both tokens and gems they can maintain the income source and avoid the P2W. Yes it will probably be less but there are a lot of impatient people not willing to grind out tokens.

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@Chappyy quote:

If they make the slots purchasable by both tokens and gems they can maintain the income source and avoid the P2W. Yes it will probably be less but there are a lot of impatient people not willing to grind out tokens.

This seems hands down like the smartest compromise to me, as I can't imagine Trendy willingly giving free slots.

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I didn't leave because the deck, I left cause I didn't want to keep testing all the wipes with the same 4 toons. My friends won't even play unless there are more options to the roster. When that happens we all coming to play some dd2 until then ill check in on hopes that new playable chars are out.

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@deadpplqq quote:

I didn't leave because the deck, I left cause I didn't want to keep testing all the wipes with the same 4 toons. My friends won't even play unless there are more options to the roster. When that happens we all coming to play some dd2 until then ill check in on hopes that new playable chars are out.

That is true new chars would alleviate some of the problems DD2 is suffering from but the hero deck still needs to go/change. When i came to play DD2 i actually assumed they would have some of the new DD1 staple characters in the game(SUMMONER PLZ!).  The problem is that trendy really screwed them selves with the gear passive system.

Imagine if they added a new char?  They would have to add build specific special weapons to every boss/map that currently has them. This would increase the already terrible RNG on those by a lot. 

Also instead of just designing( or mostly copying from DD1) a new char they also have to design a bunch of gear passives on top of it now.

I was hoping we would get many new chars but the way the game is designed its trying to copy D3. And that one only released 1 new hero in years.

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hero deck makes char slots useless end of story they can make more money by removing because people will buy more costumes for their hero's because they can now use more hero's the hero slots can be easily purchased by wyvern coins to make it a non pay to win game like these people say I don't get how that would be a pay to win when u can create up to 5 without purchasing all they would have to do is make the free slots of hero slots higher and that's about it you go the same advantage as others not much of an advantage even if u buy much more slots not going to do very much of a difference everyone will still be able to win much easier and make the game much more open to things and when new hero's arrive give away  a free slot for that specific hero :)

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I'm just waiting to see what these supposed new Hero Deck changes will be. I just get worried this will be one of those things they keep under tight wraps until it pushes out. I think that would be a mistake as opposed to building hype and getting people on board with the changes. Also side effect of this is would be being able to gauge how well the changes could be received by the community and give them a chance to tweak before release.

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well another easy very easy solution is increase the hero deck cap to maybe plus 1 or max 2? that could solve so much and still keep their deck in play I would be satisfied with 5 hero's  in deck why? because now everyone has the option to make 4 builders and bring a dps if they need it which can easily solve so much chaos going on with the hero deck. Easy solution just increase the cap of the deck even just 1 more slot in hero deck would solve so much drama over if it is that too risky to remove just a hero deck cap increase can give everyone a second chance to the hero deck still :)

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Increase the size of the hero deck to five. This gives more variety for solo players/quers and keeps the p2win turds happy.

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Reading through this thread and another one from a couple of days ago (https://dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/130534/is-this-the-end-of-group-play-nm4-solo-too-easy) has actually been slightly amusing.

This thread: "I should be able to build everything myself and not have to rely on others"

That thread: "There is no incentive for multiplayer any more"

If I am wrong on any of these generalisations them please correct me, but to me it seems like a pretty good trade-off at the moment. Less players the game is slightly easier but with less build flexibility as you only get four builds, more players add difficulty, fun and more variety.

Unfortunately if you just join a random game you have little idea of what you'll get, but I've had some good experiences.

At the moment I'm actually for the hero deck and think it does promote group play (even if that's not how people are using it at the moment).

Better tavern systems might help, so that you are grouped in the tavern with people of similar ipwr. That way you could arange a group with semi-randoms and go in with complemetary hero decks :)

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increasing the deck is a band-aide. The deck used to be three then they upped it to four. Now the cries are just at least give me five. Adding slots is not going to fix it especially as harder content comes out and passive builds are created.

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I have 9 level 50 chars, and i hate the hero deck. I build every char for somin different. Yes Remove the hero deck an some ppl will have a char for everything but thats thier choice. I'd build another monk if hero deck was gone just for the lightning towers cuz i have a purge evil mnk alrdy. I;ve gotten to the point where i now play the game with only 3 tower an 1 dmg dealer. almost every map can be done without a mnk, I can solo NM 4 liferoots and little horn valley NM 4 with no monk setup. Even tho i may be hurting my own point here abit, hero deck is frustrating. Yes it made me go outside the regular builds, but only because i had no choice in it.I think we should have the choice of our setups(which means no hero deck) but with hero deck it is making ppl rly go out there an try new setups. so in the end here i'd just like to say this, Hero deck is frustrating as hell.

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that's what people don't want that's what they are calling pay to win but I thought this was a all team based game but yeah idk that's what everyone who don't want it gone is saying it will become pay to win after.

@Zebrahash quote:

I have 9 level 50 chars, and i hate the hero deck. I build every char for somin different. Yes Remove the hero deck an some ppl will have a char for everything but thats thier choice. I'd build another monk if hero deck was gone just for the lightning towers cuz i have a purge evil mnk alrdy. I;ve gotten to the point where i now play the game with only 3 tower an 1 dmg dealer. almost every map can be done without a mnk, I can solo NM 4 liferoots and little horn valley NM 4 with no monk setup. Even tho i may be hurting my own point here abit, hero deck is frustrating. Yes it made me go outside the regular builds, but only because i had no choice in it.I think we should have the choice of our setups(which means no hero deck) but with hero deck it is making ppl rly go out there an try new setups. so in the end here i'd just like to say this, Hero deck is frustrating as hell.


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- Hero Deck promotes group play

But they allow players to solo maps so they have to make soloing even the hardest content viable. The Hero Deck as-is is currently preventing many players from soloing as, unless you already have NM4 Inc gear, you need Walls, Frosties, Traps, Purge/Boost AND A DPS to get through anything. Simple math. With just 4 builders in my deck, if a flier doesn't get dropped by a frosty- game over.  They don't target me even when provoked, they just go right for the crystal and 2 shot it.

- P2W

There's no pvp in this game and no daily/weekly/etc contests that reward top players so all arguments of P2W are those made by people who have no f'ing idea as to what they're talking about. Go troll elsewhere. 

What are they winning? NM4 Inc gear? Even if you had 4 people in a group with 3 different builds from the list in this thread and a dps the only towers built would be walls, traps, frosties, and Serenity.  All the other towers are simply not as efficient as the 4 mentioned.

Adding 1 more slot to the hero deck is necessary but removing it altogether will make all but a few of the fanboi elitists happier.  Also, each class needs access to both physical and magical tower dps. Until then Huntress will be the only tower dps worth building for the casual/solo crowd.

- Anything non-cosmetic should be purchasable with tokens

Agreed. HOWEVER, if hero slots are considered non-cosmetic than there's something very wrong with the game itself. They should be solely cosmetic.  While the hero deck partially makes them cosmetic it's still not fair to folks who enjoy solo play whose money is just as green as the people that prefer to play in groups. And being able to choose from even 100 different builders doesn't matter when maps still have DU limits.

- To sum up- Hero deck needs expanded to 5 or 6 characters but total removal is preferred. Also, anyone whining about P2W... seriously? gtfo

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