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werox3

hero deck is a ?

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I'm now part of the hero deck hating group I hate it so much I have 4 tower builders and one dps and I would love to be ale to build everything I need without having to depend on someone to join my game because I cant build everything and dps it so now I'm force to play with randoms or someone which is a pain in the butt I really want to be able to build alone without having to wait for someone to join in nightmare 4 that's what it basically is having to wait for someone to join with the one thing you couldn't bring and it's very annoying honestly if I was able to use my all my hero's I would be more satisfied on the game hero deck is just a slap in the face to solo playing when nobody is on your forced to play with people which is not always bad but I sometimes need to just depend on me and not anyone else I would honestly be able to do a solo nm4 betsy with much ease I cant farm nm4 high end gear because I can't or not allowed to bring the rest of my hero's with please trendy listen to everyone remove the deck and allow us to use the hero's we've made no point of doing more then 4 lvl 50's if that's the case of this hero deck why even offer us slots for more hero's? so we can't use them either? lol please trendy I already put over 600 hours in this game and this is a very important need indeed!

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Always nice to start the new year off with a hero deck post. I have also changed my stance. I used to be open to change the hero deck possibility but now that passives are spread out over all pieces of gear I only want a total removal. I think that even with changes to the hero deck we will be having this conversation again.

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If they remove it everyone will have more fun and literally no-one will miss it.

They didn't listen to us in 2015. Will Trendy listen to us in 2016?

We just want to make your game more fun Trendy!

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Welcome to the club Werox. That is pretty much the pattern though.

You start playing the game, think its neat and fine.  Then overtime come to realize that we simply need access to all heroes and it should be removed.   Hopefully Trendy realizes that we are not just some outspoken minority and drops the entire thing. 

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People who want to remove the hero deck are the vast majority. However few people who stopped playing the game bother coming here any more so you hear a massively imbalanced representation of the real opinion on the matter. 99% of the people I used to play with hated it with a vengeance and couldn't see why we'd been given this arbitrary limitation. Especially since it wasn't an issue in DD1!

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Removing the hero deck will turn DD2 into a pay to win game for people who unlock hero slots. The hero deck puts the same limitations on everyone. Without a hero deck then someone can buy a bunch of hero slots and have...

  1. Blockade Squire (Hero Health, Defense Health, Hearty Blockade)
  2. Harpoon Squire (Defense Power, Defense Health, Black Arrow, Speedy Harpoon, Splody Harpoon)
  3. Cannon Squire (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Iron Core, Shellshock)
  4. Training Dummy Squire with the new Harbinger weapon
  5. Tank Squire (Hero Health, Physical Resist, Magical Resist, Troll Face, Provoke)
  6. DPS Squire
  7. Frosty Apprentice (Defense Power, Defense Health, Frost Fire, Frosty Power, Snowstorm)
  8. Flame Burst/Thrower Apprentice (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Pyromania, Vector Corrector)
  9. Earthshatter Apprentice (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Vector Corrector, Fault Line)
  10. DPS Apprentice (Ability Power, Hero Damage, Ancient Magics, Arcanist, [passive that increases arcane volley damage])
  11. Arcane Barrier Apprentice with the new harbinger weapon
  12. Traptress (Defense Power, Defense Health, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Volatile Schematics, Tripwire)
  13. Poison Tower Huntress (Defense Power, Defense Health, Envenom, Explosive Poison, Towering Poison, Speedy Darts)
  14. Blaze Huntress (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Victory Smell, Phoenix's Luck, Phoenix Flame, Volatile Schematics)
  15. DPS Huntress (Hero Damage, Hero Crit Damage, Ability Power, Hero Crit Chance, Flameageddon, Flashbang, Shrapnel)
  16. Geyser Huntress with the new harbinger weapon
  17. Boost Monk
  18. LSA Monk
  19. Serenity Monk
  20. DPS Monk
  21. Other builds that I cant think of right now

So obviously 1 player who buys up hero slots and has access to all of these different builds at the same time has a pretty big advantage over F2P players who can only pick from 4 of these builds.

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@MegaHamster7 quote:

People who want to remove the hero deck are the vast majority. However few people who stopped playing the game bother coming here any more so you hear a massively imbalanced representation of the real opinion on the matter. 99% of the people I used to play with hated it with a vengeance and couldn't see why we'd been given this arbitrary limitation. Especially since it wasn't an issue in DD1!

But, but... they had a Survey.

How dare you prove them wrong.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

Removing the hero deck will turn DD2 into a pay to win game for people who unlock hero slots. The hero deck puts the same limitations on everyone. Without a hero deck then someone can buy a bunch of hero slots and have...

  1. Blockade Squire (Hero Health, Defense Health, Hearty Blockade)
  2. Harpoon Squire (Defense Power, Defense Health, Black Arrow, Speedy Harpoon, Splody Harpoon)
  3. Cannon Squire (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Iron Core, Shellshock)
  4. Training Dummy Squire with the new Harbinger weapon
  5. Tank Squire (Hero Health, Physical Resist, Magical Resist, Troll Face, Provoke)
  6. DPS Squire
  7. Frosty Apprentice (Defense Power, Defense Health, Frost Fire, Frosty Power, Snowstorm)
  8. Flame Burst/Thrower Apprentice (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Pyromania, Vector Corrector)
  9. Earthshatter Apprentice (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Vector Corrector, Fault Line)
  10. DPS Apprentice (Ability Power, Hero Damage, Ancient Magics, Arcanist, [passive that increases arcane volley damage])
  11. Arcane Barrier Apprentice with the new harbinger weapon
  12. Traptress (Defense Power, Defense Health, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Volatile Schematics, Tripwire)
  13. Poison Tower Huntress (Defense Power, Defense Health, Envenom, Explosive Poison, Towering Poison, Speedy Darts)
  14. Blaze Huntress (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Victory Smell, Phoenix's Luck, Phoenix Flame, Volatile Schematics)
  15. DPS Huntress (Hero Damage, Hero Crit Damage, Ability Power, Hero Crit Chance, Flameageddon, Flashbang, Shrapnel)
  16. Geyser Huntress with the new harbinger weapon
  17. Boost Monk
  18. LSA Monk
  19. Serenity Monk
  20. DPS Monk
  21. Other builds that I cant think of right now

So obviously 1 player who buys up hero slots and has access to all of these different builds at the same time has a pretty big advantage over F2P players who can only pick from 4 of these builds.

First removing it wont make it P2W we have had that conversation already at length.

Second your post right here supports our argument completely. Look at how much replay value this "player" got out of the game making all those heroes and gearing all those heroes, spending time playing all those heroes.

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And imagine how many costumes that player would buy...

I think hero slots should go wyvern token to take away the P2W argument. 

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Make them purchasable buy both. It will still not be paid to win and this isn't a competitive anyways. Just give F2P players a way to earn them.


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@MegaHamster7 quote:

Also, you don't need all those characters to win. You're obviously being obtuse.

You are obviously being dishonest. Having access to every specialized build at once would give a clear advantage. It is self evidently true.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:


@MegaHamster7 quote:

Also, you don't need all those characters to win. You're obviously being obtuse.

You are obviously being dishonest. Having access to every specialized build at once would give a clear advantage. It is self evidently true.

At this point in the game u would only gain a small advantage at around 5-6 heroes(full builders +1 and dps). After that its probably not noticeable. This isn't about advantage. This is about trying build combinations and having fun.

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@Pegazul quote:

At this point in the game u would only gain a small advantage at around 5-6 heroes(full builders +1 and dps). After that its probably not noticeable. This isn't about advantage. This is about trying build combinations and having fun.

Exactly!

I was doing NM4 content solo with four characters so there's nothing dishonest in what I said. You don't need 21+ heros to win. Fact. It's just boring as hell being limited in what I can play with after I start a game. Having to head back to the tavern and restart so I can switch out heroes is a total buzzkill.

And what advantage anyway? Who do you think you're paying to win against? This is a co-op game.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:


@MegaHamster7 quote:

Also, you don't need all those characters to win. You're obviously being obtuse.

You are obviously being dishonest. Having access to every specialized build at once would give a clear advantage. It is self evidently true.

I am curious exactly what advantage would I get? Are we competing? Do you not get something if I have all those heroes? Why do people keep insisting there is some advantage.

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@Pegazul quote:

This isn't about advantage. This is about trying build combinations and having fun.

Well that's certainly not true. There is nothing preventing you from "trying build combinations and having fun" already. Removing the hero deck would do nothing except give you an advantage for buying more hero slots. That is literally all it would do. 

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:


@Pegazul quote:

This isn't about advantage. This is about trying build combinations and having fun.

Well that's certainly not true. There is nothing preventing you from "trying build combinations and having fun" already. Removing the hero deck would do nothing except give you an advantage for buying more hero slots. That is literally all it would do. 

This has to be a hollow statement. I don't believe you even believe this.  As far as the combinations it is simple math. If you need 5 heroes to try a build you want but you can only have 4 well you are 1 hero short of what you want to do. If you go even closer to now most would say you can't even try a 4 hero build since you need a DPS leaving you with 3 builders and one DPS. So yes the hero deck is preventing people from trying build combinations.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:


@Pegazul quote:

This isn't about advantage. This is about trying build combinations and having fun.

Well that's certainly not true. There is nothing preventing you from "trying build combinations and having fun" already. Removing the hero deck would do nothing except give you an advantage for buying more hero slots. That is literally all it would do. 

Tell me... how do i try Purge monk + LSA monk?

How do i try traps/frosty/cannons?


If you want to do any map that you don't completely out gear you have to bring a dedicated waller and a dps.


How much fun can you have with 2 hero slots worth of combination? 

Right now the combo is either traps/frost    or purge/cannon


If you don't use a DPS you can get a bit more variety but generally speaking you need DPS.

The new patch just made things worse and the hero deck is even more of an issue now than it was before due to Hybrid builds being destroyed.



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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

Removing the hero deck will turn DD2 into a pay to win game for people who unlock hero slots. The hero deck puts the same limitations on everyone. Without a hero deck then someone can buy a bunch of hero slots and have...

  1. Blockade Squire (Hero Health, Defense Health, Hearty Blockade)
  2. Harpoon Squire (Defense Power, Defense Health, Black Arrow, Speedy Harpoon, Splody Harpoon)
  3. Cannon Squire (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Iron Core, Shellshock)
  4. Training Dummy Squire with the new Harbinger weapon
  5. Tank Squire (Hero Health, Physical Resist, Magical Resist, Troll Face, Provoke)
  6. DPS Squire
  7. Frosty Apprentice (Defense Power, Defense Health, Frost Fire, Frosty Power, Snowstorm)
  8. Flame Burst/Thrower Apprentice (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Pyromania, Vector Corrector)
  9. Earthshatter Apprentice (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Vector Corrector, Fault Line)
  10. DPS Apprentice (Ability Power, Hero Damage, Ancient Magics, Arcanist, [passive that increases arcane volley damage])
  11. Arcane Barrier Apprentice with the new harbinger weapon
  12. Traptress (Defense Power, Defense Health, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Volatile Schematics, Tripwire)
  13. Poison Tower Huntress (Defense Power, Defense Health, Envenom, Explosive Poison, Towering Poison, Speedy Darts)
  14. Blaze Huntress (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Victory Smell, Phoenix's Luck, Phoenix Flame, Volatile Schematics)
  15. DPS Huntress (Hero Damage, Hero Crit Damage, Ability Power, Hero Crit Chance, Flameageddon, Flashbang, Shrapnel)
  16. Geyser Huntress with the new harbinger weapon
  17. Boost Monk
  18. LSA Monk
  19. Serenity Monk
  20. DPS Monk
  21. Other builds that I cant think of right now

So obviously 1 player who buys up hero slots and has access to all of these different builds at the same time has a pretty big advantage over F2P players who can only pick from 4 of these builds.

No, it isn't obvious, and you saying it is demonstrates just how well you've thought about this deeply

If you think adding blaze balloons, earthshatters, LSAs, and/or harpoons into builds is going to make a difference, difficulty wise... then we can stop this conversation right now


Let's think about it in two different ways.  

Practically: 

Cannon/flameburst/wall/dps build would add boost aura

Cannon/purge/wall/dps would add flameburst

Traps/frosty/wall/dps would add boost aura

Anything else added makes an even more negligible improvement or just plain makes the build worse because DU is being wasted

Let's remind ourselves that frosty/boost don't give DP to the passive effects, too.  So.. those build weapons wont benefit trap/frosty builds as much as a trap or frosty would.


Philosophically:

DU is still in the game.  Any tower whose primary function is to damage would be comparable to another tower whose primary function is to deal damage - balanced for range, aoe, etc etc.  No matter the balance state of the game the only way removal of the hero deck could impact difficulty in a big way is if we had many multiplicatively functioning towers.  Like boost aura, or frosty boost, or any type of mechanic that impedes movement.   Towers that "boost" the performance of every tower that's targeting that creature, basically.  

And trendy's made their stance on that decently clear when frosties came out.  They nerfed how boost aura and frosties interact that first week.

I'll give it to you that if serenity slow worked as intended we'd also see that tossed into every lane because it increases the # of times a trap can fire and # of mobs it will hit by making things stack up

And I'll give you if trendy isn't smart about what they implement next we'd soon be back to DD1 meta were you stack as much support towers as possible on top of whatever damaging tower you want ftw


But making the game dumb just incase the devs are incompetent isn't really helping the game.  It'll be bad no matter what happens with the hero deck in that case.


For what it's worth, I do think having frosty in the game function as ~4x the boost of a boost aura and the most powerful slow is a stupid idea.  No wonder the build utilizing that to its fullest is the one that's used most often.  I'd remove it, with or without the hero deck.  Wouldn't add more boost type effects, no more slow effects, and no more anything-that-impedes-movement

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The hero deck, buy-able character slots and bag sales(gem wise) need to go if Trendy ever hopes to be able to evolve this title into something greater than it is right now without reaching the point of 'pay to win' etc complaints.  Only non-game changing items such as costumes/premium pet skins etc should be allowed to cost gems, Anything else will have some form even if it's minute of advantage to it even if it might not help you win the map.

Simply put, I find that arguing about whether or not something is unfair advantage due to P2W or not doesn't help. Having fun is with a game or not, now there's something worth the time and hassle.


-Fos

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All I have to say is there wasn't a hero deck in DD1 so why is there one in DD2? It's too limiting and makes solo play extremely difficult. I don't mind playing with randoms in public games. I actually quite enjoy it, but sometimes I just want to do my own thing. I have no idea how you would go about removing the hero deck without all havoc breaking loose, but there's definitely a way. Maybe adding a new hero with new defenses could help change things up a bit.  >>>Summoner_minimap_icon_c.png<<<

Please be nice. I don't read every single thing on the forums

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:

Removing the hero deck will turn DD2 into a pay to win game for people who unlock hero slots. The hero deck puts the same limitations on everyone. Without a hero deck then someone can buy a bunch of hero slots and have...

  1. Blockade Squire (Hero Health, Defense Health, Hearty Blockade)
  2. Harpoon Squire (Defense Power, Defense Health, Black Arrow, Speedy Harpoon, Splody Harpoon)
  3. Cannon Squire (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Iron Core, Shellshock)
  4. Training Dummy Squire with the new Harbinger weapon
  5. Tank Squire (Hero Health, Physical Resist, Magical Resist, Troll Face, Provoke)
  6. DPS Squire
  7. Frosty Apprentice (Defense Power, Defense Health, Frost Fire, Frosty Power, Snowstorm)
  8. Flame Burst/Thrower Apprentice (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Pyromania, Vector Corrector)
  9. Earthshatter Apprentice (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Vector Corrector, Fault Line)
  10. DPS Apprentice (Ability Power, Hero Damage, Ancient Magics, Arcanist, [passive that increases arcane volley damage])
  11. Arcane Barrier Apprentice with the new harbinger weapon
  12. Traptress (Defense Power, Defense Health, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Volatile Schematics, Tripwire)
  13. Poison Tower Huntress (Defense Power, Defense Health, Envenom, Explosive Poison, Towering Poison, Speedy Darts)
  14. Blaze Huntress (Defense Power, Defense Crit Damage, Defense Crit Chance, Victory Smell, Phoenix's Luck, Phoenix Flame, Volatile Schematics)
  15. DPS Huntress (Hero Damage, Hero Crit Damage, Ability Power, Hero Crit Chance, Flameageddon, Flashbang, Shrapnel)
  16. Geyser Huntress with the new harbinger weapon
  17. Boost Monk
  18. LSA Monk
  19. Serenity Monk
  20. DPS Monk
  21. Other builds that I cant think of right now

So obviously 1 player who buys up hero slots and has access to all of these different builds at the same time has a pretty big advantage over F2P players who can only pick from 4 of these builds.

this is why they give everyone the same amount of slots to either unlock or already have unlocked and have a limit on everyone but still be able to use all hero's your argument is done.

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@Hom-Sha-Bom quote:


@MegaHamster7 quote:

Also, you don't need all those characters to win. You're obviously being obtuse.

You are obviously being dishonest. Having access to every specialized build at once would give a clear advantage. It is self evidently true.

...but this advantage already exists.  The better players with organized groups have Frostprentice, Fireprentice, CannonSquire, WallSquire, Traptress, Lightning Monk/Purge Monk, and maybe Boost Monk.  And Tank Squire, DPS Apprentice, and DPS Huntress.  That's not even including the more niche things like PDTress and Blazetress.


The better players I see?  All have many or all of these specific builds, not just one of each builder.  And they often run with other people who similarly coordinate their hero decks.


So who exactly is hurt by this lack of access?  Solo players and solo-queuers.  Exactly the people we don't need to be keeping down.  Joining the queue these days feels like playing the lottery--I need at least one dps and can't possibly cover all the bases by myself, so I have to guess what everyone else will have felt inclined to bring.  Is this really the status quo you're so committed to defending, considering the "clear advantage" already exists among the top players who're already profiting massively off it?

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