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Towers too Underpowered


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The way the current set-up works, towers are no longer a viable option when you get to NM3 or 4. In fact, traps and auras are literally the only thing you can use, aside from walls. And that, my friends, is killing the game for me. More than the hero deck (which I will complain about until it's finally dead and gone). Half the heroes I made are completely useless right now, because their towers cost too many DU and can't hold a candle to a ground-bomb.

The problems associated with towers are two-fold: even at their best, they don't have anywhere near enough health or damage to survive, and compounding this problem, they draw too much aggro. It doesn't help that you have four or five mobs that specifically target towers to the exclusion of all else, meaning you practically have to have a blockade for each group of towers if you want them to have half a chance in hell. Flamethrower towers are like TE's subtle acknowledgement that towers are too weak, because they specifically fix the problems of not enough damage and reducing aggro. They still don't have a good amount of health, though, so a single ogre jump will take out everything in range.

And even when you put them behind barriers, it doesn't matter. The drakin and spear throwers shoot over the blockades, flying kobolds and lightning bugs fly over them, and the ogres' ground-pound has such a large area of effect that they're dead anyway. It's more than a little insane that, for a tower defense game, the actual towers in DD2 are nigh on useless end-game.

I'll also insert a quick rage about how the mobs can just circumvent the blockades whenever they feel like it. I don't know how many times I've lost a map because a kobold or lady orc just flipped a coin one day and decided not to stop at a blockade that no one mob could get past. Just today, I saw four kobolds just slip past the barriers so they can mess with my towers or the objective, ruining an otherwise okay game.

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I know this isn't a complete answer, but a ground pound only effects towers/players at the same z height as the ogre is standing. If your flamethrowers are slightly elevated then they don't get hit by it. Also, ground pound only happens when a hero is too close to the ogre.

But other than flamethrowers being decent, I wholeheartedly agree, physical towers that draw agro are currently near useless on nm4 at present due to the rediculously upscaled enemy damage. The only way to win is to not have enemies anywhere near destructable towers :O

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Chartflow of common though process in Trendy:
Get good idea, mix two genres rarely mixed, make good game, build playerbase.

Get nice amount of cash, get idea to make the 1st idea even better. Its a continuation of Tower Defense RPG game.

Make a better tower defense RPG game. Make all the towers nigh useless.
"The game is now fixed"

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The maps are also to small to really benefit from the longest range towers like ballista or to make more "damaging camps" before mobs hit the walls.   Seems in DD1 you could put more towers at different places without needing a wall.

There is very few straight lanes long enough to use towers range to the fullest, to many sharp turns.

If you try putting towers on higher ground to cover those corners, all the range and flying mobs will just murder them.

Imo that's another reason that makes towers less useful.

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@lewis_woodg quote:

I know this isn't a complete answer, but a ground pound only effects towers/players at the same z height as the ogre is standing. If your flamethrowers are slightly elevated then they don't get hit by it. Also, ground pound only happens when a hero is too close to the ogre.

But other than flamethrowers being decent, I wholeheartedly agree, physical towers that draw agro are currently near useless on nm4 at present due to the rediculously upscaled enemy damage. The only way to win is to not have enemies anywhere near destructable towers :O

not exactly, look this image:

even with the tower on the left at a higher altitude, it still takes the leap damage from boss (ogre) and that destroy completely the tower, and the tower behind the barrier, has a very short range and we need to keep this tower away from the shield because bosses dmg and kobolds explosions, so for it to start attack enemies come very near the barrier, and we still have enemies who remain far (Mathius and spearmen, that can destroy the barrier and then the towers easily because towers dont have range [with a gear full 3% vector and 2 spheres of 10% range in apprentice])


ps. so its does not work, you need to keep towers behind barrier, but its has a lower range for this, 

my unique ideas to solve this would be to increase the range by at least 50% of the current, or transform the towers into energy format like the monk's auras, or the same trap limited shots, because the amount of hp of towers is very low, and has a very short range, which makes it impossible to use in NM4 even increasing the hp of the towers and the range when launching the NM5 or more it will be a problem again. 

And increase the Monk Boost Aura to give the same buff or at least 80% than Frost apprentice tower gives for traps and auras "Only exceptionally for  apprentice and squire towers and for monk AA tower". 

I believe this would be a great balance in the game.

Awu9mFp.jpg

  • Flametower in the left, will be destroyed, nothing you can do to use flametowers in nm4, it will be destroyed (the only map that is worth using is in Syphon D on the pipes).
  • BurstTowers must remain at a safe distance from the barriers to avoid damage, which dramatically reduces the range

ps, the target of kobolds sometimes are the heroes not barriers, make a barrier that covers all the passages, or avoid getting on the sides of the barrier, or they will follow the hero in escape areas, if hero is no more in his way, he will explode in your frost tower, if this frost is near the crystal so BOOM you lose.

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What if they make wall to have some sort of "shield" for tower behind them?
Like my ultimate drawing, where the "Shield range" area is a place were towers that are in it don't recive dmg, that the shield works like an aura with energy that must be recharged.

4ZaPo5G.jpg?1

Shield range: This shield makes every tower in it "invulnerable", uses energy and must be recharged every round.

Wall: The shield can only be active with an Sphear that requires item power of 400(?).

Incoming enemys don't agro anything in the shield range.

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They just need to increase the base stats for all towers. Very easy to implement and no need to spend time developing new spheres just to fix the towers. Base attack for ballista and earth shatter needs to be increased significantly to justify for their huge cost (I guess this also applies for the Huntress' balloon as well). Cannon and flameburst should have little bit of atk increase and more range (you can simply buff the existing spheres).

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@dwade123 quote:

They just need to increase the base stats for all towers. Very easy to implement and no need to spend time developing new spheres just to fix the towers. Base attack for ballista and earth shatter needs to be increased significantly to justify for their huge cost (I guess this also applies for the Huntress' balloon as well). Cannon and flameburst should have little bit of atk increase and more range (you can simply buff the existing spheres).

The problem with this imo is that at early game, from easy to insane, the game is really easy, adding dmg to towers will only make the game easier and more boring for new players, I remember when I started, I had trouble with some maps and it was fun to lvl since it had some challenge, the other 3 guys where just a race so I could start doing some NM maps. Point is, adding stats to towers to fix an end game problem is like choosing a lvl 5 Mewtwo as your starter pokemon.

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Towers are sure as hell weaker than frosty + traps, but thats only because of frosty. Frosty + Flamethrower is equally insane it only works for phys resist lanes though.

My squire cannons have 12k dps on tier 1 and ca 50k on tier 5, thats a mediocre dps huntress with nm4 gear, and with shellshock its insanely stron against ogres and other minibosses.

A friend of mine has a squire based on the impaling cutters sploody harpoon, i dont know any numbers but it rapes kobold lanes.

Lane setup example: Phys resist lane: 1/2 frosties, blockade, 2 elemental traps, lightning aura, geysier trap, 2 cannons for bosses who run through cc setup. works perfectly until you get a grounded lane then you need to keep them in the traps with one way or another.

Magic resist lane: 2 harpoons, 2 cannons, 1/2 frosties, explosive traps if du available. This one is way harder since the stun combo does near to no dmg and is a waste of du.


In my Opinion it would be better if Trendy would give more physical dmg defenses, since out of 16 towers only 5 have physical dmg 8 as far as i remember).

So maybe some Ubers for monk or apprentice could work, but my favourite move would be to bring in an aura that purges resistances ( Boost aura Uber). It would need heavy restriction (imo 70-100 DU cost, only works on enemies inside the aura) to not be incredibly OP in certain combinations (Permaknockup with geysier and eartshatter ecc).

Just some food for thought

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The smaller maps and lack of straight-aways, as people mentioned, also makes towers useless. The worst offender is the first sewer map, where the upper level is just a short curve that towers can't defend against, right in front of a subobjective that, if destroyed, opens up an even shorter lane that leads directly to the main objective. I always look at that map and just wonder what TE was smoking.

When I look at a lot of things in this game, I wonder what they're smoking. I could go on a rant about all the grievances here, but I won't. The towers just aren't suited for the maps, which in turn aren't suited for a tower defense game. It's weird how people considered DD1 a ground-breaker in the tower defense genre, and DD2 is just...pathetic, even for an alpha.

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Basic DPS for towers is already few times higher than basic DPS for traps and auras. Flameburst towers have comparable DPS to LSA, however they are AOE while LSA is single-target.

Just few reminders:

- Before Frosty Fire was introduced, the build was just a large pile of towers in a single boost aura, which was overpowered and also BORING.

- In DD1 it was all about auras and traps as well just to keep the build indestructible. Actual DPS on defenses was irrelevant.


so a single ogre jump will take out everything in range

As far as I know, a single ogre jump will cause kick of the player in charge. Expeienced players know they should not build everything withing ogre jump area.

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@Warmonger quote:

Basic DPS for towers is already few times higher than basic DPS for traps and auras. Flameburst towers have comparable DPS to LSA, however they are AOE while LSA is single-target.

Just few reminders:

- Before Frosty Fire was introduced, the build was just a large pile of towers in a single boost aura, which was overpowered and also BORING.

- In DD1 it was all about auras and traps as well just to keep the build indestructible. Actual DPS on defenses was irrelevant.


so a single ogre jump will take out everything in range

As far as I know, a single ogre jump will cause kick of the player in charge. Expeienced players know they should not build everything withing ogre jump area.

I've yet to meet these so-called "experienced players" you speak of, who kick people for being caught between a rock and a hard place. Things have to be within the AoE or else they don't have either the attack range or proper angle to be effective, another flaw of such small maps without enough straight-aways. And no one builds "everything" within range, but for the above reason you have to build some that are going to get wrecked. At the very least they could reduce the AoE (preferably by half, but anything would be appreciated), or give the towers more health, or the make gear with better stat boosts.

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Things have to be within the AoE or else they don't have either the attack range or proper angle to be effective, another flaw of such small maps without enough straight-aways. And no one builds "everything" within range, but for the above reason you have to build some that are going to get wrecked. At the very least they could reduce the AoE (preferably by half, but anything would be appreciated), or give the towers more health, or the make gear with better stat boosts.

I explain high-end tactics to you but you refuse to learn. It is possible to create efficient builds and survive NM4. You will never achieve it by complaining at forums, though.

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All correct but the big Game changer is frosty boosts those trap to almost the same dps., If anything Keep the Tower damage how they are and give us a worthy Empower Aura. Should Assist slightly modifiyin the meta

@Warmonger quote:

Basic DPS for towers is already few times higher than basic DPS for traps and auras. Flameburst towers have comparable DPS to LSA, however they are AOE while LSA is single-target.

Just few reminders:

- Before Frosty Fire was introduced, the build was just a large pile of towers in a single boost aura, which was overpowered and also BORING.

- In DD1 it was all about auras and traps as well just to keep the build indestructible. Actual DPS on defenses was irrelevant.


so a single ogre jump will take out everything in range

As far as I know, a single ogre jump will cause kick of the player in charge. Expeienced players know they should not build everything withing ogre jump area.


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Indeed. Even in NM1 Towers are nigh-useless. The only one that's even worth putting up is Ballistas assuming you've a Sploody Harpoon item. The problem really comes from three things; Javelin Throwers, whom can attack your towers at an angle they can't shoot, Dragons, which will ignore your barriers and attack your towers, and Witherbeasts, whom should either be deleted or be reduced to maybe 1/100th Its current health, because of how insanely powerful It is. (Between 100-2000.) 

Witherbeasts makes everything with less than 200k health nearly useless. Even when I specifically focused the Witherbeast down, a few Lady Orcs and a Dragon had already killed almost an entire lane; And God forbid a shrek (Ogre) and a pair of Witherbeasts come at your towers, I opt to just quit out right there and then, save myself some time.

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@Neophold quote:

Indeed. Even in NM1 Towers are nigh-useless. The only one that's even worth putting up is Ballistas assuming you've a Sploody Harpoon item. The problem really comes from three things; Javelin Throwers, whom can attack your towers at an angle they can't shoot, Dragons, which will ignore your barriers and attack your towers, and Witherbeasts, whom should either be deleted or be reduced to maybe 1/100th Its current health, because of how insanely powerful It is. (Between 100-2000.) 

Witherbeasts makes everything with less than 200k health nearly useless. Even when I specifically focused the Witherbeast down, a few Lady Orcs and a Dragon had already killed almost an entire lane; And God forbid a shrek (Ogre) and a pair of Witherbeasts come at your towers, I opt to just quit out right there and then, save myself some time.

Towers nigh useless in nm1? I use a tower and aura build on the nm3 halloween map on solo to farm gear for my builders (the ones I dont use a dps character for so can't really get nm4 gear for easily). I have no traps and no dps characters when I do this - only towers. I did this for all characters before I broke into nm4 too....

Flamethrowers are awesome and, so long as sufficiently elevated, don't really get hit at all :)

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@Warmonger quote:

Things have to be within the AoE or else they don't have either the attack range or proper angle to be effective, another flaw of such small maps without enough straight-aways. And no one builds "everything" within range, but for the above reason you have to build some that are going to get wrecked. At the very least they could reduce the AoE (preferably by half, but anything would be appreciated), or give the towers more health, or the make gear with better stat boosts.

I explain high-end tactics to you but you refuse to learn. It is possible to create efficient builds and survive NM4. You will never achieve it by complaining at forums, though.

Fine, I'll rise to the challenge, if you want to throw down the gauntlet. You didn't mention a single thing about tactics other than the impracticality of not building things within jump range. Beside that you just said  how things were before a patch and compared this alpha to DD1. There's nothing to learn there. The only thing they did is change which option is the only viable one. It used to be you could only rely on towers. Now you can only rely on traps and auras. Yeah, way to create a balanced game: nerf one thing into oblivion and then force people exclusively into another play style. Do you want a patronizing  golf clap, or a regular one?

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@lewis_woodg quote:


@Neophold quote:

Indeed. Even in NM1 Towers are nigh-useless. The only one that's even worth putting up is Ballistas assuming you've a Sploody Harpoon item. The problem really comes from three things; Javelin Throwers, whom can attack your towers at an angle they can't shoot, Dragons, which will ignore your barriers and attack your towers, and Witherbeasts, whom should either be deleted or be reduced to maybe 1/100th Its current health, because of how insanely powerful It is. (Between 100-2000.) 

Witherbeasts makes everything with less than 200k health nearly useless. Even when I specifically focused the Witherbeast down, a few Lady Orcs and a Dragon had already killed almost an entire lane; And God forbid a shrek (Ogre) and a pair of Witherbeasts come at your towers, I opt to just quit out right there and then, save myself some time.

Towers nigh useless in nm1? I use a tower and aura build on the nm3 halloween map on solo to farm gear for my builders (the ones I dont use a dps character for so can't really get nm4 gear for easily). I have no traps and no dps characters when I do this - only towers. I did this for all characters before I broke into nm4 too....

Flamethrowers are awesome and, so long as sufficiently elevated, don't really get hit at all :)

probably you are trying do nm3 with a nm4 geared tower....

he is talking about do nm1 with a insane gear, and probably he dont know about resistence sides, so he fail.

And if you are using flamethrowers, you are doing early nm3 maps, try do a nm3 incursion, or a nm4 incursion, kobols will just explode in your face, if you use flamethrowers....

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@Herculys quote:


@lewis_woodg quote:


@Neophold quote:

Indeed. Even in NM1 Towers are nigh-useless. The only one that's even worth putting up is Ballistas assuming you've a Sploody Harpoon item. The problem really comes from three things; Javelin Throwers, whom can attack your towers at an angle they can't shoot, Dragons, which will ignore your barriers and attack your towers, and Witherbeasts, whom should either be deleted or be reduced to maybe 1/100th Its current health, because of how insanely powerful It is. (Between 100-2000.) 

Witherbeasts makes everything with less than 200k health nearly useless. Even when I specifically focused the Witherbeast down, a few Lady Orcs and a Dragon had already killed almost an entire lane; And God forbid a shrek (Ogre) and a pair of Witherbeasts come at your towers, I opt to just quit out right there and then, save myself some time.

Towers nigh useless in nm1? I use a tower and aura build on the nm3 halloween map on solo to farm gear for my builders (the ones I dont use a dps character for so can't really get nm4 gear for easily). I have no traps and no dps characters when I do this - only towers. I did this for all characters before I broke into nm4 too....

Flamethrowers are awesome and, so long as sufficiently elevated, don't really get hit at all :)

probably you are trying do nm3 with a nm4 geared tower....

he is talking about do nm1 with a insane gear, and probably he dont know about resistence sides, so he fail.

And if you are using flamethrowers, you are doing early nm3 maps, try do a nm3 incursion, or a nm4 incursion, kobols will just explode in your face, if you use flamethrowers....

I know about Resistance lines, but I've only 1 level 50, so It's not like I can super-work against It, I just end setting up a lot more defenses there, and honestly It holds. Against almost everything but Physical Resistance (75%) Trollblood Toughness Witherbeasts on a few orc ladies and a Dragon.

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Ok, i have been playing this game almost solely solo for almost 4 months now, and I love it still. I have been doing NM4 for 3,5 months. While I rarely finish the map, I usually reach wave 5-6 on a good number of the NM4 maps. This is AFTER the mobs damage buff that happend with the Harbringer patch.  I have tried a number of different builds since then and have found out that while towers are still underpowered, it isn't as bad as you would think. 

The only problem I have had with tower damage is that there not many options for physical AoE damage towers, and those options are either highly situational (Ballista, in a straight line) or just way too weak in comparisons to their magical damage equivalent ( Explosive Trap vs. Chaos Trap / Heavy Cannonball vs. Flameburst ). The damage of the AoE splash is either to weak or to small, this causes my defense to become overwhelmed after about wave 4 on the 'uber' elemental resistance lanes. 

Before the patch I could compensate for this with smart tower placements or the frostfire / trap methode. but that isn't really an option anymore. By the time the traps/ towers would have been upgraded enough to deal with the goblins they have either squished into a nook or cranny were the traps can't reach them and they blast the walls down. or alternatively when you use towers the AoE splash damage doesn't hit them, they (somehow) passed the barricade, or the Physical AoE is simply way to weak to stop them from bursting down my fully upgrade +600k hp barricades at around wave 6 and 7. 

These are also the lanes that you simply can't go and repair, because you are dealing with a different lane(s), that is uber or have a boss. (Note here: this problem is only arises on the elemental resistance lanes, there are like 10+ different options to deal with the other resistance lanes.) 

I see only 5 real options to deal with this problem in the current (solo) game. 

  1. You reduce the number of goblins that come out of those lanes
  2. You reduce the damage that those mobs do back to what it was pre-Harbringer Patch
  3. Fix the pathting of the mobs
  4. Buff the splash damage of the Explosive trap (about 10 to 20% should do, that way is is about the same as the Chaos Trap), and the Heavy Cannonball (I have no idea how much, but currently is does not do much AoE Splash damage). The Ballista works fine but they cost WAY to much to be viable to use for that reason.
  5. Seriously buff the AoE range that the splash damage effects by about 50%. Currently it only effects them when they are clomp together, but they are usually fanned out around the barricade which causes the splash damage to not hit them all or at all.  

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