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Trendy Brett

The Awakening - Loot System Rundown

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His comment regarding melee characters are absolutely right. It must have been an oversight to completely remove resistance as secondary roll.


The gear I had on monks where I specifically look for duo resist and null+harden passive are practically impossible to obtain now.


And now the monster hit much harder on top of all that resistance nerf...how is monk going to be able to contribute at all other than building boost...most of the monk CC don't work on threatening monsters...

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I gave up reading the thread about 3/4 of the way though as it was just a lot of people complaining about the changes with not a lot of game time under their belt.

[[57446,users]], 
Thank you for the effort you put in. no doubt this bit of work was complex and difficult enough without trying to please everybody. I, for one, am thrilled to have this new system put into the game. I played half a dozen maps yesterday and got 2 direct upgrades to my 700 iPwr huntress'. To me this says the system is working correctly. I'm not going to be able to get 99% perfect gear in 1 or 2 maps, but I should be able to get it within a week of decent grinding.

While some people might disagree that is fair, having a difficulty in the grind means that the game has more replay value and will (hopefully) hold it's player base for a much longer time

The main difficulty I see going forward is attempting to gear my builders. I am not sure how I am going to manage to gear my squire and monk builders on a 1000 iPwr map. The apprentice I can build a DPS for, allowing me to contribute to holding down the fort. However my monk and squire will be difficult to gear up due to the inability to stay out of damage range while contributing. However, in saying other people managed pre-patch so it has to be possible!


Again, thank you for the effort, no doubt there was a lot of confusion and swearing on the way to getting to the final product. While the loud minority may complain about things, there is the silent majority who will continue to play this game and will now be able to spend less time finding gear and more time finding more interesting ways to beat maps!

[[4370,users]], if my tagging of Trendy Brett doesn't work (I am not sure how it treats spaces), can you please ensure he gets this message! That man needs to hear more than just the bad side of things!

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I think the problem is you are trying to put a band-aid on the system every time and it never quite feels right. You make farming for stats feel like crap but justify it as it would take to much time and we would be stuck with it. Well we have to wait with crap loot either way because if/when you revert it and add more special stats we will have to grind for more anyways. I would rather farm for something that is awesome than to farm for a mediocre increase to get back to a spot that would not even get me enough to get into NM4 before.

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Thank you Brett for your well thought-out and detailed explanation of the most recent changes. This gives some great insight as to the thought process behind the changes that were made.

Concerning loot

I feel like though loot has improved from the last patch, it is heading in a completely different direction than what my ideal is.

Right now the game overall is headed in a direction that encourages - nay, requires - a very very specific build of each hero in order to be remotely viable. This means that you're going to run into the paradox of balancing hybrid heroes. For example, what if you gave a tank squire some new passives that allows us to viably use our waller to also tank? That passive would result in two mutually exclusive options:

  • The passive is worthless, meaning no one is going to use their waller squires to tank
  • The passive is viable for wallers, and OP for any dedicated tank squires since dedicated tanks don't have to have defense health.

In short, hybrids are going to be impossible to balance with the current game architecture. In addition, builders are not fun to play with during combat phase. I would like to provide a potential solution that would remedy this - by giving all heroes a builder side to them and a DPS side to them. It would look something like this:

ALL gear comes with the following stats:

  • One of: Physical resist, magic resist, hero health. This stat determines how you want to survive. All classes could be tanks, but would have to be cognisant of what kind of damage they take. Stacking full physical resist would let you face-tank ogres indefinitely, but you would be extremely weak to any form of magic damage.
  • One of: hero ability power, defense ability power, hero damage, hero crit damage. This stat determines how you as a player dish out damage. Abilities would be changed to interact with both defenses and enemies. For example, chi blast that passes through a defense would give it additional magic damage. Investing solely into one of these stats would provide roughly equal overall damage during a wave.
  • One of: defense power or defense crit damage. Defense crit damage would be adjusted in such a way that would allow "lucky builds". For example, a cannon that deals 10KDPS with full defense power would deal 600K damage over 1 minute. A cannon with full defense crit damage would also deal 600K damage on average over 1 minute - sometimes it would be a lot more, sometimes a little less depending on how lucky you are.
  • One defense gambit passive. Apply a multiplier bonus and a multiplier penalty to one of the following: defense damage, defense attack rate, defense range. This would make it so all towers from different players are equally viable, but drastically different in utility. Higher tiers of gear would provide higher gambits.

What this gear structure would do is provide the player with the ability and desire to play with any hero in their deck. It simplifies the structure of loot, yet provides infinitely more possibilities to build a character, and incentivizes the player to farm for the exact combination they prefer. They key word there is "prefer", not "the only viable strategy".

There are several things that I would remove from the game entirely:

  • Defense health: I know this seems drastic, but the removal of this stat would make balance so much easier to control. Additionally, it would make balancing walls a lot easier, and we wouldn't ever have to worry about making entire characters dedicated to a single defense. Just make this stat a variable based on difficulty and call it good. Trap/aura health would scale by how many charges/ticks are used per minute. Traps late-game already have enough health to never have to worry about investing in the stat, and that will only get worse as the ipwr cap is raised. Since towers are at risk of being easily destroyed late-game, it's only fair for traps to be able to run out of charges late-game as well.
  • Crit chance: This is to ensure dedicated hero crit damage and defense crit damage builds stay viable without being over or underpowered for the entire lifetime of the game. Crit chance would always be static, likely somewhere between 5-10%.
  • Passives that give bonus damage/attack rate/range: These are already covered by the defense gambit stat on gear. Plus these passive in their current state are boring and only serve to make quality gear even more impossible to find.

Concerning difficulty

More health and more damage only serves to make the game more frustrating. The 12.5% increase in NM4 is the exact opposite of what that difficulty needs.

This thread and this suggestion outline exactly what can be done to make late-game fun and challenging at the same time. I will say this much - sitting there for 30 seconds left clicking on a single witherbeast is NOT my idea of fun. I was playing NM1 today and really enjoyed enemies melting to my hero damage and defenses. If there were threats that I could address with my face-melting damage and if I were punished if I didn't address those threats, that would make the game a lot more enjoyable.

In short, let players opt into various difficulty elements. If players don't choose to opt in to the challenge, reward them with worn and powerful loot. If players immensely challenge themselves, reward them consistently with mythical and legendary gear. 

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Thanks for your support but sorry, please learn what is definition of 'SMART'. A 'SMART' Loot System knows the different between random and order. A SMART Loot System will roll a SMART stat for a category as in Builder gear with a builder stat. Once you stated RANDOM, don't dare to call it SMART Loot System. Look at the universe, smart AI, smart phone, smart computer. From what I can see is, it is more to RANDOM Loot System compare to SMART Loot System. Am I right? Split those loot into numbers of category like PHYSICAL DPS, MAGICAL DPS, TANKER, BUILDER, REPAIR... Then only you may call it as SMART Loot System. Once an item is mixed up with other type of category, it is called as DUMB Loot System and so please don't care to call it SMART if the system can't know the DIFFERENT.

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The changes to the loot generation systme *might* be okay, if it weren't for the fact that the drop rate was so severely reduced.  This lowered the chance for mythical and legendary on NM levels, so far I have found one piece of gear that was sort of worth getting.  Barely.  Almost everything I see is just Powerful, with a few Epics.  The higher gear is just super rare now, and getting it with anything decent for a build is even worse.  The reduced drop rate also hinders upgrading items a bit as well.  I say increase the drop rate to something close to what it was before and we can see where the rest of the loot system takes us.

One other thing on the passives.  Hardy Blockade should role with hero health more instead of tower stats.  Without the hero health boost, that passive is worthless, and I have seen the combo much less than before.  Although with so few mythical and legendary drops they have still been worthless for upgrades for me.  It's bad that I have gear from Insane prior to the roll that is better than the NM2 drops I've been getting.  Can hardly play NM3 now with the 12.5% boost to the mobs.

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 V2 loot is still crap (sorry for say this, i know u worked alot but...), now alot pasives are nerfed like superconductor, u had like 48%  and now u can max it with 15%? THIS IS RIDICULIUS, and now U NEED MORE TIME TO GET ALL THE GEAR because u have less LEGEDARY drops and still  BAD legs, i prefer totally the  old loot system, this is too bad,  a waste of time that u need to get all pasives on every part, and all legs are mixed, totems with defense health and ap, parts wih builder pasives and hero stats... 


Harbringer weapons are all crap, except squire tonk pasive and lsa pasive, the rest are very bad, atm we have so much better weapons ingame, IS NOT ABOUT PASSSIVES, FOR DPS its VERY important to HAVE A GOOD DPS WITH THE autohits of the weapons, not crap pasives, and atm armageddon and betsy, ramparts bow.. beat ALL in dmg  ATM.




FORGOT 1 GOOD THING OF THIS: We have pet reroll ability :P

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I read this thread, and a lot of people think that by giving better loot, they mean making it perfect every time. That ain't Trendy's goal. Yes, I do disagree with the split up of passives, but yes, I disagree with the amount of people complaining because they haven't even gone out and worked. I must say, Trendy Entertainment is by far one of the most interactive game managers thingies I've ever seen compared to other games. They put their backs into the game. I've heard the stories of devs who slept nights in their office because they worked so hard for what they were writing. If I recall correctly, the TrendyEnt devs have done that. Not entirely sure, but they act like it. I've seen games where classes were so imbalanced some were the most played one cap, the next they went extinct. The game I'm thinking of, I heard that they were going to have a meeting to try to rebalance, and then come out with the class that tipped the scales by about 10000000 tons.


Tl;dr Those of you who complain about the imperfect SmartLoot system, go run maps.


P.S. I also disagree with the buff on NM4, but won't make a fuss over it.

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So while there have been some posts that are more whiny than anything else, there are literally dozens of well thought out posts with examples, math, screenshots, etc proving over and over again just how bad this system is but do the dev's actually give a ****? Nope. 

Brett, for all your examples and explanation you could have just TLDR'd with:

"We're not changing the thing you want changed the most, haha neener neener, have fun grinding back all the gear you just spent hours on end grinding for, suckers! Oh, and buy costume packs." I threw in that last part because I loathe badly disguised cash-grabs as a content update, which is all this whole thing was.

Who? Who are the "most players" that like the removal of some passives? I pine for each one that you removed and thoroughly enjoyed their benefits. 

The only thing that needed changed about passives was the same thing you did with Stats, make similar passives tend to be rolled more frequently- THAT'S IT!  "There just weren't enough passives" but yet YOU REMOVED SEVERAL!  How can you say there isn't enough and then go and remove the few that really helped us? There was no poll posted? We had literally no say in any of this, and it looks like we never will. Who did you used to work for, NCSoft? This really smacks of their "we're going to change things whether you like them or not" tactics. What good are Influence points if we can't use them?

And now less loot = even more grind for gold and gear to burn for upgrades. Unbelievable.

I really can't believe I'm going to log in and play after posting this but I do so in the hopes that one of the 100's of posts, whether intelligent or whiny (like mine) get's through to you and the bull**** ends. 


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Loot does have better stats, it makes it a lot easier to farm block-aid gear on squire. But all the other class are harder to find (all) the right pieces. How am I suppose to get a (vect., tripmine, defense crit chance, defense power, defense health/defense Crit damage) on all my gear, when I can get like 12 other stats that could easily ruin the perfect gear?

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@Trendy Brett quote

I Can’t Build Hybrid Characters To Make My Hero Deck Work

We know that the Hero Deck, as well as hybrid characters, are in a weak state right now. Separately, we are working on a Hero Deck refactor that should alleviate some of these issues, but we did not want to hold up the loot system revamp until we could also do a Hero Deck revamp.

- Trendy Brett

If you mean by the HD being in a weak state you mean dead on arrival stupidest thing added to the game and by HD revamp you mean abolishing the HD, then we agree.

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The alarm should be ringing when Brett needs a wall of text to explain stats. The system is now so complicated that even developers does not like the system.

You even say "This would be WORSE than that"?? Is that the standard you guys now have? If it's "less bad" then its good enough.

The players could do with a much much simpler system that makes sense but ALSO the developers could need a clear way to work. When implementing passives like you guys are now, you never know where its going, will it even be a passive or maybe an uber? Ubers can be good or bad, passives can be good or bad and be related to towers and be general hero boosts. WHAT IS THE STRATEGY?

Please create a plan, a strategy (The community has now even provided great foundations for this) or at least some basic rules I.E. "A tower should probably do one thing great". But no, of course the slow / frost towers are used to buff traps. Sure why use the tower boost aura? And the awesome looking poison dart, who I hoped would turn into a great boss killer maybe, gets turned into a 3rd wall. This is yet again a testament that there is a lack of direction.

Not everyone cares that it does not make any sense. Many want to just play and ignore it. But for the survival of the game you need to simplify soon rather then later for your own good!

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i support everyone that hate the new patch. u got to do something about it. i wont repeat what thy other said becauser there all right about the ***y system lot now. hope u do something about it. because ur presently losing alot of fans. next time be sure to have something good before bring it out. instead of something half done.

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i just dont get it what u guys did. did u at less test it before bring in this new patch because it really doesnt look like it. i sorry to say but i hope all these messages of everyone gives u a scare because it should. and imagine usually it only abour 20% of the player that takes the time to complain on forums. the other will just stop and never come back. not even to see if it change or not. so next time be sure before doing something so big

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@BSY2 quote:

i just dont get it what u guys did. did u at less test it before bring in this new patch because it really doesnt look like it. i sorry to say but i hope all these messages of everyone gives u a scare because it should. and imagine usually it only abour 20% of the player that takes the time to complain on forums. the other will just stop and never come back. not even to see if it change or not. so next time be sure before doing something so big

You are absolutely right. The majority never reads the forums, they just start the game and thinks WTF happened to this game.


20 % ... i would say 5 % max.

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Game numbers down 35% that's on top of the huge drop from the high levels. I suspect another drop over the harbinger patch when people get fed up with the harbinger fight, which is alot of fun. Trouble is unless you play with a dedicated group of friends NM4 Inc is not fun.

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And Trendy probably didn't try to play with pubs ever. If they do there will realize the match making is completely broken and lame.

Just list all games and let us join them, damn it.

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@interfered quote:

And Trendy probably didn't try to play with pubs ever. If they do there will realize the match making is completely broken and lame.

I can personally attest to you this is false. I've been randomly matched up in public games with blacksmith, brad, and isom all at different times over the last couple months. I agree that matchmaking is not in an ideal place yet, but saying it's completely broken is a bit of an exaggeration.

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This new loot system isent working like it should i havent got any good items after update and i dont even have that good gear, and seems like its impossible to get 4s bow after update i only get 2s and 1 s bows all the time and new update said less trash seems like i get more trash when harbringer update wasent here pls fix soon.

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Here's my journal of 3 days worth of playing:

PIaNZ45.jpg


 Another day goes by and the new loot system continues to disappoint. What in the world were the loot testers even talking about finding a "bunch of hearty DH HH" gears!


Edit: Few minutes later... another similar roll.

2oYvQjf.jpg

Another edit: 1 hour later...

PIgr0Qf.jpg


Day 3: The struggle continues. Once again, the only legendary item with Hearty Blockade shows up with this kind of roll.

maMGA5o.jpg


Tonight, played 1 random game and look at this... another legendary hearty passive item with the SAME stats roll:

kBsaDDh.jpg

I think something is wrong with the loot system. Defense Health and Defense Crit is TOOOOO common!

Conclusion: I have found ZERO Defense Health + Hero Health + Hearty Blockade Passive legendary item. I'm not saying this combination should be easily obtainable, but please get rid of the rolls found above. Defense Health and Crit is not loved by anyone in this game.

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tbh defense health + defense crit damage is just as worthless as mixed tower + DPS stats.

The only time you're ever going to stack defense health is on a character dedicated to a single defense's walling capabilities. Defense crit damage is worthless unless it is paired with defense power.

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yeah dunno why you guys dont realize that if we remove the RNG from the drop there is no game left


there is no good progression and the *** meta allows only ONE build possible for basically every map, if we add that items drop with just the only right combination of stats ppl would be full build in few days and stop playing at all


trendy was right to nerf items and make end game harder, tbh they should nerf much much harder frost+traps cause they ruin the game since months

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Agree with above. Stop the nerfing... except for the overpowered Dragolich pet though. End game is supposed to be all about crazy builds with high dmg flying everywhere.

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