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Trendy Brett

The Awakening - Loot System Rundown

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Hello Dungeon Defenders community! My name is Brett, and I do systems design for Trendy. The current changes to the passive system, as well as the loot system, were my brainchild, so I wanted to come to the forum to discuss these changes with you.


So let’s get into it!

Item Stat Combinations

In our old loot system, items rolled their stats pretty much randomly. This would result in a huge percentage of the items rolling with low-value combinations, like Defense Crit Damage and Hero Crit Damage.


The new system hasn’t eliminated the chance that these weird combinations will appear, but it reduces their frequency of appearance by a huge margin. Roughly 75% of items should drop with valuable combinations, and on top of that, highly desirable combinations (like Defense Power and Defense Health) have an even higher chance to drop than ‘average.’ We’ve weighted it such that the more valuable stat combinations will appear far more frequently than the low-value combinations.


Passives Generation

Again, in our old system, items would generate with passives randomly assigned to them. So, you’d get a lot of gear that had Defense-focused stats but Hero-focused passives.


Once again, we stepped in and added a weighting system to the passives. Items with Defense-focused stats (like Defense Power) generate with Defense-focused passives (like Vector Corrector) more frequently. And again, these changes did not eliminate the possibility of weird combinations, but you should see any given passive align with the stats about 75% of the time.


To note, there still isn’t the concept of a ‘passive combo.’ The game checks for each passive individually, and against all stats on the item, so you can still get unusual passive combinations. We did catch some edge cases (like weapons), so the passives on weapons only look at the secondary stat (and not just the Hero Damage primary stat).


There’s still one big weakness of the new system: passives that are forced to appear on specific items (mainly build and boss-specific passives). Passives generated like this don’t care about stats, so you still get especially weird stat + passive combinations on these. We’re working on fixing that system, but it’s a completely separate one from the ‘default’ system, so it’ll take us a bit longer to get in line.


The Big Passive Refactor

So the thing that’s the most contentious is the passive refactor. This included adding new passives (which everybody seems to like), removing some less popular passives (which most players liked) and splitting up some of the older passives (which hasn’t gone over as well).


Cutting to the chase, we felt the breakup of old passives had to be done. The flaw of the old setup was that several of our item slots did not have enough useful passives to give the results we wanted. There just weren’t enough passives to get constantly good results. Even after creating several new passives, we found ourselves falling short of our target quality bar.


So, we took the plunge, and broke up some of the slot-specific passives. This gave us enough passives to generate quality items in virtually every slot. Combined with our stat and passive generation changes noted above, this resulted in much higher quality looting dropping with much higher consistency than before.


Compared to the old system, the new system gives quality upgrades on a much more consistent basis. This is a good thing for both new and old players, but especially our newer players, as they can progress through Free Play and the early End Game difficulties at a far faster pace. There’s much less of a ‘gear gate’ for getting rolling in Nightmare 1, which means that we’ll be shepherding far more players into all Nightmare difficulties.


We know this changed caused some grief, so I’ll take a moment to address some of the most common concerns with the change:


My Previous Grind is Now Obsolete

Your old grind is not obsolete, but yes, it is no longer the ‘only’ gear you need to make a strategy work. If you had an iPWR 700 item with great stats and great passives on it, it is still a top-tier item for that slot. However, it may not be the ONLY item you need with those passives anymore, so you’ll want to jump in and find some items in different slots.


Finding Small Percentages Isn’t As Fun

We agree, but we felt it was worse that many item slots still generated with a lot of ‘filler’ passives. After reviewing how long it would take us to generate tons of new passives to fill up those slots, we realized we’d be stuck with these ‘filler’ passives for awhile, and so we sided with ‘less junk’ over the ‘bigger numbers’ design. We know it was a tradeoff, but we felt it was the better tradeoff for the game.


Now I Have To Grind Even More To Get Back To Where I Was

Yes, although the grind should be much, much shorter than what it was before. You may not get the ‘perfect’ item on your first map, and you will still see a few ‘oddball’ items, but you will get quality replacements much, much more frequently than under the old loot system. You’ll be back up to spec in no time, so please give the system a chance!


I Can’t Build Hybrid Characters To Make My Hero Deck Work

We know that the Hero Deck, as well as hybrid characters, are in a weak state right now. Separately, we are working on a Hero Deck refactor that should alleviate some of these issues, but we did not want to hold up the loot system revamp until we could also do a Hero Deck revamp.


In the short term, the passive change will pinch hybrids, but the new Harbinger items should help compensate. Geyser Trap, for example, becomes a more viable source of damage with the Shard Spike passive, which should help it combo with other strategies with less inventory crunch.


But we know that Hybrid builds aren’t really that viable and that the Hero Deck makes certain builds more desireable / flexible than others. We couldn’t tackle it with this patch, but we’re aware of it and will be tackling it in the future.


Wrapping It Up

The dev team is committed to ensuring that the quality of items continues to go up and that the time / luck factor required to get those items goes down. The Harbinger Awakens update represents a fundamental shift in how we’re approaching loot in DD2, and we know it’s created a stir, but we have faith that this is the first of many good steps forward for loot. We’d like to hear your thoughts as you get a chance to experience the system, so give it a shot and let us know how it’s working out.


As a parting note, we’re working on an update that will increase the frequency of desirable stat combinations and passives even more, so stay tuned for more news on that improvement in the near future!


- Trendy Brett


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If I may, why do weaker weapons/armor now drop when the enemies are tougher?  Other than that I don't mind getting more gear, was excited for the smarter drops anyway.

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I can appreciate the hard work that was put in by Trendy, I always have, but you literally described cutting corners because you couldn't meet your goal. Instead of finding viable and useful passives, like maybe a % defense speed increase, universal range booster, or maybe a small % of universal unresisted damage, you broke up the abilities that were there to fill the gaps. This has caused such drastic problems that now people are having a hard time completing maps that are 100 points BELOW their ipwr. This isn't right at all, because you are forcing people to have to go down a few difficulties and start over. Then trying to push hybrid users to use a build that doesn't work to their play-style is really not going to help. I, personally, love the harbinger and its special weapons, but they are not going to fix this mess. You haven't just weakened the hybrids, you have full on damaged them. A frost/fire app is not even possible anymore. For the love of everything, fix these problems before it permanently damages DD2. I love this game and don't want to see it go down like this.

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I think all is well IF you would have waited to put in the 12.5% mob HP/Damage increase PLUS all the other increases to level difficulty.  Especially knowing almost all characters are going to have to go after gear to get where they were at previously.  You should have waited a couple weeks for the increase in difficulty. 


You have also magnified the gap between NM3 and NM4.  People were already talking how difficult it was to go from NM3 to NM4, I believe you (Trendy) have even acknowledged that there was a gap.   Now, NM3 mobs are tougher, but the gear is still at the same level.  NM4 is even more difficult than it was, thus expanding the gap.


I will say, I appreciate all the effort.  I think most people do and will when the game is finally released.  So thank you for all the effort you have put in.  These are just some things to think about next time you patch.

IMO / $0.02

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So you are the guy i should be blaming for making me leave the game uh?


How are we supposed to get "the oh so great new harbinger gear" when we cant get the gear to beat it in the first place?

....


is just.. straight up stupid to change the single items passive to be a 5+ items passive.. it just shuts down every chance of hybrid builds.. and with the limitation of a 4 hero deck.. having hybrids is pretty much the safest and probably best way to play the game.. but guess what.. noooo you cant go hybrid.. you haave to find all your ***ing gear with the same passive so you can be just another more of the bunch..


100% retarded choice!!

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Existing gear got nerfed.
Monsters got buffed.
The gap between NM3 and NM4 is worse than before. 

My waller squire cant tank. The damage received in NM4 is more than a level 1 serenity aura heals for. Looks like I wont be playing as him.

My monk builder is worthless. Lost a lot of radius and he contributes less than the squire during the combat phase. Looks like I wont be playing as him either.

My Frost app is awful. Not only are the frost towers bugged, their range is noticeably reduced. Now I'm checking, double checking, and triple checking their range in disbelief. Aside from the fact that he's also useless during the combat phase either running out of ability mana and doing close to zero damage. Looks like I wont be playing as him either.

My trap huntress got hit hard also. Tripwire was karate chopped to 1/3 it's original value. Did traps increase their recharge rate? They don't attack nearly as fast anymore... Again this 'builder' is useless in the combat phase. 20,000 dps is nothing in NM4 and having the unique ability to die to everything in 1 hit is quite balanced..... Looks like I wont be playing as her either.

I cant justify spending time on this game when it's filled with so much frustration.


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What I don't understand is why gear that doesn't make sense exists. What is the purpose of it? I understand wanting to change gear(it makes for a smoother game etc in the long run), and while I think it should not have happened alongside a difficulty increase, the loot change itself isn't a big deal.


What I don't get is why people still get loot with hero crit+defense crit. What is the purpose of such items? Why are they in the loot table? You can clearly get loot that isn't rolled that way, so why did you decide you wanted to keep ***ty loot like that in the game? Why not just lower drop rates by 25% and prevent those items from even dropping?

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There is so much a need of a loot cave event for a couple of weeks to allow people to re gear, the current drop rates are truly awful, if you do find something you have zero items to level it up as you get virtually no drops.

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@Woqini quote:

...

dd2mix.jpg

You do know that every piece of gear isn't guaranteed to be perfectly rolled, right? 

People need to stop posting this garbage like this. Of course you're going to get ass for drops at times. That's nothing special. You can't have every piece roll a perfect mix of stats constantly. That's not Trendy's intention. 

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"

My Previous Grind is Now Obsolete

Your old grind is not obsolete, but yes, it is no longer the ‘only’ gear you need to make a strategy work. If you had an iPWR 700 item with great stats and great passives on it, it is still a top-tier item for that slot. However, it may not be the ONLY item you need with those passives anymore, so you’ll want to jump in and find some items in different slots."

It is obsolete, the only character unaffected at all is the hearty squire, the trapper needs a full regrind to get trip/def crit/volatile on all gear pieces < WTF along with dp + def crit main stats. That means 5 stats that need to be perfect. The frost app, has the range nerf so, again all pieces need a regrind but thankfully only need vector + frost power + dp. The monk needs a total refarm on 2 sets of gear, because now you can't even have light auras + serenity on the same hero. Radiance/karma/def crit/amped is 4 passives so if you want to use both auras you need 2 characters with 5 perfect rolled stats.

Half of this mess could have been avoided if you clamped the current gear across all items instead of individually, so that current gear wouldnt be completely obsolete and would be possible to replace slowly. (Something i noted under the loot feedback btw) As for the situatation the monk is in, well that seems to be route you are going for, which is completely flawed.

And am I the only one that reads the patch notes?

  • Removed Magic Resistance and Physical Resistance as secondary base stat options from Armor items.
That's tanking gear obliterated even further along with the increased dmg from the new nm4

Oh and did I mention dps heros? Yep totally nerfed those as well, you are welcome to spam your abilities for a whole 5 seconds before you are out of mana, and have to wait till the end of the wave to regain it because superconductor is rip, and mana regen is again split. 
48 was the max from old gear, new max is 15 or 18 not sure if the weapons can roll it.
Either way playing ability apprentice is completely worthless without perfectly rolled gear with mana regen/superconductor/hero crit oh wait did i miss something? oh right arcane volley? hmmm woops....

And whats up with fingerlonger being removed? it was awesome, and i thought the whole reason for it was to safely repair from behind so ogre stomp/dragons/spears wouldn't kill you? 


You completely went the wrong way with this whole new system, slot specific passives while hard to find should have just been adjusted to drop more frequently with the right stats. But then again we already had the overcrowding of passives if you wanted to use more than 1 tower on a hero, which is absurd in itself.

I have no idea how nobody from the devs saw this coming? To me it sounds like the loot test was just a pr stunt.

Well that's my rant over, probably be ignored but its the truth. 


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Yep i also would say increase the drop rate at last vor over a weekend or so, that people can see the changes. Currently it doesn't look like 75% usefull combination but the few rare times it looks more like 90% useless.

It's hard to evaluate the changes if not looking through every green or blue and stuff.

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Thanks for the Details.  I was confused about the current Defense Passives appearing on Hero Gear.

I believe system might need a little tweaking, but overall it seems to be working now that I understand the design better.

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It is simple to bring back the player by making only three types of stat for example,

a DPS gear with all DPS passives + stats

a BUILDER gear with all BUILDER passives + stats

a TANKY gear with all TANKY passives + stats


I'm sorry but I have been getting a legendary chest with HD AB/HCD with tanky passives for Hunteress. You stated it up where the loot will be SMART but it didn't work here.


When you release a beta testing for the loot 2.0 ver., they are farming testing from hard lane, NM1-3 but not NM4. That is why it is pretty quickly for them to get a good gear unlike NM4.

Playing back NM3 INC, you drop down up to 100 IPW.

Playing back NM4, you drop down up to 80 IPW


Fine. If you are lazy enough to fixed up everything since you guys are screw up right now. Just make a perfect SMART LOOT SYSTEM. Thank you. I shall brief you what stat as builder needed for a perfect build gear.


SQUIRE - WALLER

Weapon - Hero Damage & Hero Health + %Automation %Defense Crit Chance %(Any Good Passive)

Gear - Hero Health & Defense Health + %Hearty Blockade %Automation % Defense Crit Chance


Hunteress - TRAPPERS

Weapon - Hero Damage & Defense Power + %Tripwire %Defense Crit Chance %(Any Phoenix Passive

)Gear - Defense Power & Defense Critical Damage + %Tripwire %Volatile Schematics %Defense Crit Chance


Apprentice - FROSTY

Weapon - Hero Damage & Defense Power + %Frost Fire %Snowstorm %Defense Crit ChanceGear - Defense Power & Defense Crit Damage + %Frosty Power %Vector Corrector %Fault Line/Pyromania

Trinket - Defense Power & Defense Crit Damage +%Frosty Power %Snowstorm %Defense Crit Chance


Monk - AURA

Weapon - Hero Damage & Defense Power + %Purge Evil %Amped Up %Defense Crit Chance

Gear - Defense Power & Defenese Crit Damage + %Radiance %Karma Votex %Defense Crit Chance

Trinket - Defense Power & Defense Crit Damage +Idle Flow +Radiance/Empower +Defense Crit Chance


p/s: We don't mind for farming for a few hours to get a perfect stats like at above but just make the loot system smart by making a category of a build stats, tanky stats, dps stats. It is good enough for make us relief. We aren't asking more than that. Please provide a SMART LOOT SYSTEM for us. Thank you.


-In the future if there is another wipe out loot, allow us to keep it for a month nor more by giving us a time to farm back the gear before it been wipe out. This SOLVED everything-


----Make changes on the game and not on the paper

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@Tristaris quote:


@Woqini quote:

...

dd2mix.jpg

You do know that every piece of gear isn't guaranteed to be perfectly rolled, right? 

People need to stop posting this garbage like this. Of course you're going to get ass for drops at times. That's nothing special. You can't have every piece roll a perfect mix of stats constantly. That's not Trendy's intention. 

Call it what you want, i don't give a s...


When this piece of crap is what i get in the end chest on NM4 Incursion, it's simply not good enough.

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Thanks for coming on it and explaining things.


I won't even get into what the issue's are because you guys know, or should.

Please relate to our input more and less of your own.  Some of us have been here since the beginning and are end game players now.  If you want a good game, take it from the best players, the new players and the casual players and start listening and implementing on what the players want.

That does not mean to take some of what we say and twist it around into a mess and unravel the crumpled papers.

Please fix the bugs, the bugs and lastly the other stuff before forcing everybody to regrind for items.

Anyways, thanks for coming in.  Glad to see you are working, but you need to change your paths a bit.

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Another *** i noticed is that... sure they reduce the drop rate of white/green gear, which only purpose was sell for gold.. and before this retarded update.. it was easily 2-3k gold PER WAVE.. of useless items.. now you need a WHOLE ***ING RUN to get 2-3k gold from EVEN selling blues and purples..

This whole thing was just soooo ***ing stupid.. seriously.. you have to be braindead.. or retarded.. or intentionally wanting people to stop playing to introduce this *** system..


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@M e t h O z quote:

Another *** i noticed is that... sure they reduce the drop rate of white/green gear, which only purpose was sell for gold.. and before this retarded update.. it was easily 2-3k gold PER WAVE.. of useless items.. now you need a WHOLE ***ING RUN to get 2-3k gold from EVEN selling blues and purples..

This whole thing was just soooo ***ing stupid.. seriously.. you have to be braindead.. or retarded.. or intentionally wanting people to stop playing to introduce this *** system..


They said they will take selling price into consideration, apparently, they simply consider it but decide not to do anything.

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yeah the difficulty increase made zero sense like litterly zero........    and they hot fixing nothing worries me even more warframe for example brings out  2 hot fixes per day when they drop a patch and they botched things up ........  

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I understand you cut it by 75%, but then why is 100% of my NM4 loot from a boss not optimized? Got a dps app staff with all def passives but HD AND AP, or a Huntress Bow with all a mix of passives but DP. I have been killing harbringer in NM4 last 2 days non stop and still have yet to get a decent roll. Its kinda sad. Also got a green chest for my daily bonus?


I highly recommend putting more effort in a content patch rather than a costume pack, otherwise there will be no more happy customers around to buy the costume pack

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There is just too many Defense Power and Defense Health/Crit items, and barely any rolls for specialty builds like hearty blockade. This occurs even in lower quality items like greens and blues. For those trying to gear up Wall Squire right now... don't. All you will receive are offensive tower gears.

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