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KnowsNoLimits

So here we go again, new builds are coming but we are stuck with the Hero Deck

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@Pegazul quote:Us DD1 players want to be able to have fun like in DD1 and come up with cool builds. But trendy seemingly wants to take this game in a different direction.  I mean they did start it out as a MOBA i guess they want to do some kind of persistent online multiplayer only thing. The only thing i don't understand is why they keep saying they want solo players too. You cant have your cake and eat it too.


I've been checking out the DD1 forums and the community driven update looks pretty cool :). I think going back to DD1 is just easier than trying to change trendys mind on the philosophy of this game.

Agreed, make DD2 a sequel to DD1 which means make it play like DD1 which DID NOT NEED A HERO DECK.

Sometimes I really believe that the current developers have not played DD1, or played it so long ago that they forgot the insane levels of fun that was available playing in huge maps doing unimaginable damage numbers with massive auras and super speed towers.


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I wouldn't mind another slot in the hero deck, but I think getting rid of it all together is a bit much. I for one like focusing my efforts on a limited number of characters. Gearing is enough of a pain as is.


And while the most efficient meta is well known for NM4, it's not the ONLY way you can do it. If you want to forgo frost towers and traps, it's possible (I've done it), just harder.

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@Turkish1801 quote:

I wouldn't mind another slot in the hero deck, but I think getting rid of it all together is a bit much. I for one like focusing my efforts on a limited number of characters. Gearing is enough of a pain as is.


And while the most efficient meta is well known for NM4, it's not the ONLY way you can do it. If you want to forgo frost towers and traps, it's possible (I've done it), just harder.

Even if the hero deck is eliminated and we can do as we did in DD1 (bring any hero from our stable into the game during the build phases), you are certainly able to choose to limit the number of heroes you use in your games. 


See how great that would be?  Turkish gets to play his game the way he wants, and I would get to play the way I want, and the flowers bloom and the old ones get their minions ground into dust.  All would be good.

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limiting the amount of heroes you can use seems like the right way to go about it, it'd get a bit silly if by the end of them added new builds and classes you'd be changing hero for every single tower to get that "optimal" build, 99% of the game would be spent in the build phase, they would then need to make content challenging enough for people using 20+ different characters for that "optimal" build which when them make so if people wanted to do that content they would need to spend money and spend countless hours grinding toons.
Either they keep the hero deck or add a build timer like dd1, there has to be some limiting factor to stop it becoming ridiculous.

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@nish197 quote:

limiting the amount of heroes you can use seems like the right way to go about it, it'd get a bit silly if by the end of them added new builds and classes you'd be changing hero for every single tower to get that "optimal" build, 99% of the game would be spent in the build phase, they would then need to make content challenging enough for people using 20+ different characters for that "optimal" build which when them make so if people wanted to do that content they would need to spend money and spend countless hours grinding toons.
Either they keep the hero deck or add a build timer like dd1, there has to be some limiting factor to stop it becoming ridiculous.

That's true. Wouldn't the absence of the HD cause everyone to make a character for each tower? There would be build phases way too optimal for the difficulty of the game. Endgame Difficulty would have to be cranked up to accommodate the power some players would have (making it nearly impossible for players with only 4 geared characters).

It does seem like the HD allows players with less characters to complete endgame content without allowing players with many characters to make the difficulty trivial. 

As a relatively new player to DD2 (spent countless hours in DD1),  am I understanding correctly that everyone's main issue with the HD is that it makes it near impossible to bring experimental/fun character builds into an endgame match (NM Difficulty)? If that is the case, did anyone read my previous suggestion to make bringing experimental builds into a match a little easier?

Trendy could also implement things like Daily/Weekly endgame challenge maps; which could have modifiers that give bonuses and/or weaknesses to certain towers or elements. That could be a good reason the level a variety of character builds even with existence of the HD, and keep the endgame fresh.

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Here we go.


Hero deck removal would make the game too easy and they'd have to crank up endgame difficulty, huh? 


Did you guys even imagine what the difference between optimized 4 hero build vs optimized 300 hero build would look like?  What is the difference, exactly? 

Let's get specific, I'm using a trap/frosty build.  What DU do I remove from the trap/frosty + wall build and what do I add that makes it suddenly NOTICEABLY easier?  


Game wont be easy.  People will *** *** up more often than create hyper optimized builds with 1 LSA here, 1 cannon there, 1 PDT there, 1 balloon there, etc etc.  You guys don't understand how difficult it is to parse that sort of information.  In a big way, hero deck makes building *** REALLY easy because there's way less to think about in game.  Will this 40 DU be better spent on a flamethrower here, or a PDT there, or 2 traps under the frosties.


This is so ludicrous - the game RIGHT NOW is NOT balanced toward perfectly geared NM4 characters.  The difference alone, from a decently geared ad/ap huntress and a HD/herocrit poison tips huntress is astro***innomical and none of you is complaining about it.  But suddenly being able to eek out a few % points of effectiveness (maybe.) is going to make the game too easy and force trendy's hand to crank up the difficulty?

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Anyone with half a brain would know that the removal of the HD would not make the game easier. Simply due to the fact that you are limited by DU's and not how many hero's you can bring at one time. Removing the HD would give you much more variety and be a hell of alot more fun, but easier? not a chance.

Right now the strategy in this game is for the brain dead.

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@Warlock_holmez quote:

Anyone have any thoughts on this post? Just curious.

quote:

Hello all. I'm still low level and haven't experienced any of these HD issues yet but reading through this thread some ideas came to mind that I figured I'd share. This mainly applies to multiplayer matches.

What if you could swap out Heroes from your Hero Deck during any build phase? The catch would be that any towers you had built with the swapped character would disappear. Would this allow players to experiment with new/interesting/fun builds without fearing that someone might not have a meta (necessary) build character in the game AND keep the HD philosophy intact? 

(ie 1. You bring Frosty, Waller, DPS, and an experimental Monk. No one has a Traptress but someone else has a Waller. You can swap your Waller for your Traptress. Or something like that?)

(ie 2. In a 4 player game, everyone would be able to bring/contribute 1-2 meta builds and have 2-3 other builds to experiment and play with.)

Would this allow more experimental/fun builds in multiplayer games while also motivating more contribution from multiple players?


I realize this doesn't solve Solo issues, but would it at least make multiplayer more fun?

you're right this doesn't help solo play at all. Yes it would make co-op easier for that one builder that shows up and has 3 DPS huntresses looking at him/her to hurry up and build. At least they could possibly fix thier deck maybe before some kid G keys right away.

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@nish197 quote:

 99% of the game would be spent in the build phase, they would then need to make content challenging enough for people using 20+ different characters for that "optimal" build which when them make so if people wanted to do that content they would need to spend money and spend countless hours grinding toons.

Judging by the defense council tag under your name, and by the number of posts you have it is safe to assume you played DD1. So you know that what you said is not a normal occurrence. I am all for a good debate on topics but people keep making these claims that we need the hero deck to prevent x. Even though some of those people have played DD1 and know that they are making statements that are either false or have already been dis proven by DD1 which has no hero deck.


I have not seen one argument as to why the Hero Deck makes the game better or why it should be kept that hasn't already been countered with a logical or in most cases back counter argument. Except for one No one can tell another person what they like, so the argument "it makes the game fun for me" can't be disputed but I will say if you haven't played it both ways then it's like mom used to say "Just try the damn peas, you might like them."

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@KnowsNoLimits quote:

Anyone with half a brain would know that the removal of the HD would not make the game easier. Simply due to the fact that you are limited by DU's and not how many hero's you can bring at one time. Removing the HD would give you much more variety and be a hell of alot more fun, but easier? not a chance.

Right now the strategy in this game is for the brain dead.

Being able to bring:

8k+ DPS tier 1 flamethrowers

Traps

Frost towers

PDT to melt bosses

Walls

DPS char

Serenity monk, 

New LSA monk, boost monk

Cannons/ballista. 

All by yourself would not make the game easier?

A setup with all those, is better than the current trap meta. But most of the time not doable since you cannot bring all that. And coordinating all that in public is not a easy task.

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Doesn't DD2 have more item builds that can boost specific towers than DD1? They don't seem very comparable in that sense. And with future characters and item builds coming, you don't think that some of them might mix perfectly with the current meta if you could just add those few extra towers? I'm not saying I'm right, but it seems a little closed-minded to think that it wouldn't make things easier if you had every build of the now and future available together vs just what's the current meta. Do you guys think 4 is just that magic # for the perfect most powerful build? Even with all that will come? Don't you think the game is a fraction of the size it will be in a year or two in terms of towers available?

Maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing. But it's pretty early to tell in a game that's going to have a lot more to come in terms of build options.

Once again, you guys could be right. I'm just trying to join the community here and help the game with good discussion. Any comment on my suggestion of Daily/Weekly maps with modifiers? Would that motivate exploration of build variety away from the current meta for a good time? And maybe cool rewards? Doubt it'd be hard to implement.

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@Chappyy quote:


@Warlock_holmez quote:

Anyone have any thoughts on this post? Just curious.

quote:

Hello all. I'm still low level and haven't experienced any of these HD issues yet but reading through this thread some ideas came to mind that I figured I'd share. This mainly applies to multiplayer matches.

What if you could swap out Heroes from your Hero Deck during any build phase? The catch would be that any towers you had built with the swapped character would disappear. Would this allow players to experiment with new/interesting/fun builds without fearing that someone might not have a meta (necessary) build character in the game AND keep the HD philosophy intact? 

(ie 1. You bring Frosty, Waller, DPS, and an experimental Monk. No one has a Traptress but someone else has a Waller. You can swap your Waller for your Traptress. Or something like that?)

(ie 2. In a 4 player game, everyone would be able to bring/contribute 1-2 meta builds and have 2-3 other builds to experiment and play with.)

Would this allow more experimental/fun builds in multiplayer games while also motivating more contribution from multiple players?


I realize this doesn't solve Solo issues, but would it at least make multiplayer more fun?

you're right this doesn't help solo play at all. Yes it would make co-op easier for that one builder that shows up and has 3 DPS huntresses looking at him/her to hurry up and build. At least they could possibly fix thier deck maybe before some kid G keys right away.

That suggestion wasn't to make sure everyone has meta characters in the game. It was for the people who feel like they can only bring meta characters in a game to actually be able to have other options. If everyone in a game has the meta covered, there would be room to swap in some new heroes that players have been wanting to test out for fun. 

This is the main issue here right? (aside from solo play)

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@PandynatorDD quote:


@KnowsNoLimits quote:

Anyone with half a brain would know that the removal of the HD would not make the game easier. Simply due to the fact that you are limited by DU's and not how many hero's you can bring at one time. Removing the HD would give you much more variety and be a hell of alot more fun, but easier? not a chance.

Right now the strategy in this game is for the brain dead.

Being able to bring:

8k+ DPS tier 1 flamethrowers

Traps

Frost towers

PDT to melt bosses

Walls

DPS char

Serenity monk, 

New LSA monk, boost monk

Cannons/ballista. 

All by yourself would not make the game easier?

A setup with all those, is better than the current trap meta. But most of the time not doable since you cannot bring all that. And coordinating all that in public is not a easy task.

No it wouldn't make the game easier and no it's not better than the current meta.  


The [[48971,users]] guy, haddad, talks about this at length when he describes what he wants NM4 to be and why it's 1000 ipwr instead of 700 ipwr.  The defenses need to work together to achieve effective dps greater than the sum of the parts could.  Putting 1 of every tower, even if optimized, is downright stupid.  So much wasted DU, relative to how defenses could be working together

Here's a decent explanation for your example, specifically, of adding all of those towers to the current meta would be bad:

The reason why traps/frosties is so good is because there's a multiplicative feature where a frosty is worth X amount of "impact" on a game and that scales by how many traps it can buff at one time... so that's why we see the dominant trap/frosty strategy be put a bunch of traps a ways away from the wall, instead of spreading them out.

For every 1 trap you place it isn't the power of just a trap... it's the power of a trap + the # of frosties that will buff it, and vice versa for each frosty placed

The ONLY thing that would benefit a trap/frosty build in a really meaningful way is boost auras that can hit all of the traps + give 25% hp to walls.  And even that, you're trading out 2 traps for it per lane.  2 traps buffed by 2-5 frosties (depending on the map) is a big deal

Even cannons and flameburst (or flamethrower) towers, whose scaling of DP and Dcrit is really head and shoulders above all the other defenses would not benefit a trap/frosty build.  You do not want to take away DU from the synergizing effects of trap/frosty


Builds without boost/frosty would benefit from having all defenses at their disposal.  But how much?  Say I'm doing an only cannon/flameburst build and I want to add in whatever defense you think would make it better.  I need to trade that cannon/flameburst DU for that new defense.  How much impact would that new defense have vs that cannon/flameburst I had to delete?  It's insignificant or outright detrimental



You're a perfect example of someone who would have more trouble without the hero deck than with the hero deck

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@PandynatorDD quote:


@KnowsNoLimits quote:

Anyone with half a brain would know that the removal of the HD would not make the game easier. Simply due to the fact that you are limited by DU's and not how many hero's you can bring at one time. Removing the HD would give you much more variety and be a hell of alot more fun, but easier? not a chance.

Right now the strategy in this game is for the brain dead.

Being able to bring:

8k+ DPS tier 1 flamethrowers

Traps

Frost towers

PDT to melt bosses

Walls

DPS char

Serenity monk, 

New LSA monk, boost monk

Cannons/ballista. 

All by yourself would not make the game easier?

A setup with all those, is better than the current trap meta. But most of the time not doable since you cannot bring all that. And coordinating all that in public is not a easy task.

it still won't make it eaiser, how much of those towers are actually viable with Frosts?

it's not like you can't build what you have said with an organised group and even then it's not a face roll. it gives you more vairiety, but you are still limited by the DU. It would make it awhole lot more fun though and the best thing about it is unlimited potenital.

Besides DD1 let you have how many characters you wanted and that game was alot harder than this one.

Boredom's set in?

Well lets build it this way now. The HD is killing off replaybility and enjoyment in this game. 

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@Warlock_holmez quote:


@Chappyy quote:


@Warlock_holmez quote:

Anyone have any thoughts on this post? Just curious.

quote:

Hello all. I'm still low level and haven't experienced any of these HD issues yet but reading through this thread some ideas came to mind that I figured I'd share. This mainly applies to multiplayer matches.

What if you could swap out Heroes from your Hero Deck during any build phase? The catch would be that any towers you had built with the swapped character would disappear. Would this allow players to experiment with new/interesting/fun builds without fearing that someone might not have a meta (necessary) build character in the game AND keep the HD philosophy intact? 

(ie 1. You bring Frosty, Waller, DPS, and an experimental Monk. No one has a Traptress but someone else has a Waller. You can swap your Waller for your Traptress. Or something like that?)

(ie 2. In a 4 player game, everyone would be able to bring/contribute 1-2 meta builds and have 2-3 other builds to experiment and play with.)

Would this allow more experimental/fun builds in multiplayer games while also motivating more contribution from multiple players?


I realize this doesn't solve Solo issues, but would it at least make multiplayer more fun?

you're right this doesn't help solo play at all. Yes it would make co-op easier for that one builder that shows up and has 3 DPS huntresses looking at him/her to hurry up and build. At least they could possibly fix thier deck maybe before some kid G keys right away.

That suggestion wasn't to make sure everyone has meta characters in the game. It was for the people who feel like they can only bring meta characters in a game to actually be able to have other options. If everyone in a game has the meta covered, there would be room to swap in some new heroes that players have been wanting to test out for fun. 

This is the main issue here right? (aside from solo play)

You are correct. In a perfect match everyone would have builders that could cover the meta so it would afford the opportunity to bring in some test build. However how often does that happen? That is a genuine question since I haven't played since SEP and can only assume from the forum salt that most people you meet in co-op don't have it covered.

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