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So here we go again, new builds are coming but we are stuck with the Hero Deck


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@dwade123 quote:

Hero deck is a necessary evil. NM4 is easy enough. No need to make it even easier.

Post a vid of you soloing NM4 betsy or ramparts inc please.




*edit. Why is it that every time some **** comes and says the game is to easy and i ask for video proof of solo endgame farming spots they go quiet. If you think the hero deck should stick around cause the game is easy with 4 people you are dumber than a rock. If you have 4 people and every one brings DPS you have 3x4=12 builders left. If you solo the same map and bring dps you have 3x1=3 builders left. In effect when you play multiplayer you are circumventing the herodeck limitation and do not feel its effects unless your playing with randoms who don't have builders.

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They call this an alpha but are unwilling to do any kind of radical changes and only stick to their 'master plan'.

If they at least would do something! Do some tests. But they just don't care. 


At least we get 4 new skins a month... Who would want challenge maps with unique weapon drops or anything that made DD1 great?! 

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@Pegazul quote:


@dwade123 quote:

Hero deck is a necessary evil. NM4 is easy enough. No need to make it even easier.

Post a vid of you soloing NM4 betsy or ramparts inc please.




*edit. Why is it that every time some **** comes and says the game is to easy and i ask for video proof of solo endgame farming spots they go quiet. If you think the hero deck should stick around cause the game is easy with 4 people you are dumber than a rock. If you have 4 people and every one brings DPS you have 3x4=12 builders left. If you solo the same map and bring dps you have 3x1=3 builders left. In effect when you play multiplayer you are circumventing the herodeck limitation and do not feel its effects unless your playing with randoms who don't have builders.

Also to emphasize, 

solo play isn't balanced vs multiplayer play (never has been and it's CRAZY to me that we've had posts in the past lamenting about "boo hoo I can't play with friends because it's easier to play solo").  It's way way way way way easier when bringing 4 DPS into a match.  The trade off of a few extra monster levels and 3 more "hard" lanes is nothing compared to the free, non DU using, damage being brought in

It's free damage.  Can't lose with that when the game's balanced around our ability to clear maps without that much free impact.


We've had this very same thread like 20 times now and there's always the "oh it's too easy w/o hero deck".  And time and time again when it gets teased apart he only (or primarily) plays multiplayer.  Well, no *** you think the game is easy

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This is my third attempt at solo, and as you can see. If I did not die at wave 5, and actually noticed the ogre on left lane earlier, it would be gg.

I say again, 3rd attempt. Sure, its not super easy, but completely doable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2iK8lHEBy4


@Pachipachio quote:


@Pegazul quote:


@dwade123 quote:

Hero deck is a necessary evil. NM4 is easy enough. No need to make it even easier.

Post a vid of you soloing NM4 betsy or ramparts inc please.




*edit. Why is it that every time some **** comes and says the game is to easy and i ask for video proof of solo endgame farming spots they go quiet. If you think the hero deck should stick around cause the game is easy with 4 people you are dumber than a rock. If you have 4 people and every one brings DPS you have 3x4=12 builders left. If you solo the same map and bring dps you have 3x1=3 builders left. In effect when you play multiplayer you are circumventing the herodeck limitation and do not feel its effects unless your playing with randoms who don't have builders.

Also to emphasize, 

solo play isn't balanced vs multiplayer play (never has been and it's CRAZY to me that we've had posts in the past lamenting about "boo hoo I can't play with friends because it's easier to play solo").  It's way way way way way easier when bringing 4 DPS into a match.  The trade off of a few extra monster levels and 3 more "hard" lanes is nothing compared to the free, non DU using, damage being brought in

It's free damage.  Can't lose with that when the game's balanced around our ability to clear maps without that much free impact.


We've had this very same thread like 20 times now and there's always the "oh it's too easy w/o hero deck".  And time and time again when it gets teased apart he only (or primarily) plays multiplayer.  Well, no *** you think the game is easy


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Hello all. I'm still low level and haven't experienced any of these HD issues yet but reading through this thread some ideas came to mind that I figured I'd share. This mainly applies to multiplayer matches.

What if you could swap out Heroes from your Hero Deck during any build phase? The catch would be that any towers you had built with the swapped character would disappear. Would this allow players to experiment with new/interesting/fun builds without fearing that someone might not have a meta (necessary) build character in the game AND keep the HD philosophy intact? 

(ie 1. You bring Frosty, Waller, DPS, and an experimental Monk. No one has a Traptress but someone else has a Waller. You can swap your Waller for your Traptress. Or something like that?)

(ie 2. In a 4 player game, everyone would be able to bring/contribute 1-2 meta builds and have 2-3 other builds to experiment and play with.)

Would this allow more experimental/fun builds in multiplayer games while also motivating more contribution from multiple players?


I realize this doesn't solve Solo issues, but would it at least make multiplayer more fun?

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@PandynatorDD quote:

This is my third attempt at solo, and as you can see. If I did not die at wave 5, and actually noticed the ogre on left lane earlier, it would be gg.

I say again, 3rd attempt. Sure, its not super easy, but completely doable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2iK8lHEBy4

Sure, it's doable.  But you can't deny even +1 huntress DPSer would make the match way more doable.  You were trying to handle 1 hard lane, 4 easy lanes, 4 air, and 2-3 bosses (you got a little lucky with explodinator) on your own.  An extra huntress DPS just trades an easy lane for hard lane plus some monster HP.  Easy tradeoff


Now add in 2 more huntress DPS and the game is gg even with subpar tower gear 


The point's always been that multiplayer vs solo balance is extremely wonky and anyone saying "it'd be too easy without hero deck" probably plays multiplayer exclusively.  


For giggles, what defenses in your video would you swap out for other defenses if you had no hero deck limitations?  ..And consequently, try and imagine how much easier the match would be as a result of that? (I think not very much)


Btw nice video and great try.  I like the PDT usage - I wonder if ranged monsters don't fire on them until really close because of the "less threat generated" affix of it

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so i just want to put this out there. it seems the only people who are complaining about the hero deck are the players who have spent gems and bought extra char slots. A free player isn't going to have more then 4 chars because he never bought more slots cause he never spent money to unlock more. At the end of the day, the complete removal of the hero deck only helps people who have 1. bought more char slots and 2. leveled/created more then 4 chars.


Touching on another previous point. The code that needs to be rewritten for the removal of the hero deck is so massive that arguing that adding extra stats is moot. To add extra stats its probably around 3-5 lines as all it needs to be done is added to a couple diff string lists. 


Again touching on another post in this thread. Crit does not seem to be hard capped at 26 or 30% as proved by a picture in this thread and i have personally seen higher then 30% on traps and various other towers/walls.


And lastly touching on another point. The packet increase by completely removing the hero deck would put tremendous amounts of pressure on the servers that trendy is hosting as well as any players internet. That being said it will start limiting players who can play the game as well as reducing the total number of players that TEs servers can handle.

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@DskDemonic quote:

so i just want to put this out there. it seems the only people who are complaining about the hero deck are the players who have spent gems and bought extra char slots. A free player isn't going to have more then 4 chars because he never bought more slots cause he never spent money to unlock more. At the end of the day, the complete removal of the hero deck only helps people who have 1. bought more char slots and 2. leveled/created more then 4 chars.


Touching on another previous point. The code that needs to be rewritten for the removal of the hero deck is so massive that arguing that adding extra stats is moot. To add extra stats its probably around 3-5 lines as all it needs to be done is added to a couple diff string lists. 


Again touching on another post in this thread. Crit does not seem to be hard capped at 26 or 30% as proved by a picture in this thread and i have personally seen higher then 30% on traps and various other towers/walls.


And lastly touching on another point. The packet increase by completely removing the hero deck would put tremendous amounts of pressure on the servers that trendy is hosting as well as any players internet. That being said it will start limiting players who can play the game as well as reducing the total number of players that TEs servers can handle.

You sure like touching alot of points.

Lets see here, already you are wrong classifying people altogether and saying we want the HD gone because we have invested gems into extra slots. I'm the opposite, I bought 2 extra slots if i recall, but I'm so bored with leveling multiple characters that I only leveled one of them to 50.

The reason I want the HD gone is for diversity and variety to return to the game. The only limitations you should have is your imagination when coming up with an effective build, not some BS artificial limitation which sets a meta as standard and forces you to play a certain way to progress.

As for the coding required to undo the HD, go cry me a ***ing river. If Trendy were stupid enough to code the HD in, then that's on their heads. I really could care less. It was a monumental stupid decision to add such a limiting aspect to a game like this and if it takes months and many late nights to abolish the HD then so be it.

Also WTF are you talking about saying having multiple characters would put a strain on there servers?

Time to bring up that piece of crap called DDE into it again. It was a testing ground for DD2, since it was server side as well. It used the very same playverse servers as well and there were no limitations on how many characters you could have, I had 20 myself if I recall. Nothing as absurd as the HD existed, because what a stupid idea that would be.

Please don't comment if you have no idea what you are talking about and make up *** about having a character limit is meant to save their server's so they wouldn't implode.

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@DskDemonic quote:


Again touching on another post in this thread. Crit does not seem to be hard capped at 26 or 30% as proved by a picture in this thread and i have personally seen higher then 30% on traps and various other towers/walls.


I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't.....


That picture you saw was of the blaze balloon.  That doesn't prove anything for obvious reasons.  And every single "test" people have brought to the table thus far, including you, is in regards to the tooltip.  

Even if you could (doubt it though, unless that crit% large sphere is active) replicate seeing over 30% on any defense (besides the blaze balloon obviously) it would only prove, definitively, that the tooltip can go over 30%.  Not whether or not crit has any sort of cap

There's only one (afaik, but I'd be happy to hear anyone's experiment) way to test what crit% caps at, if it has any cap.   And that is to use a defense to hit a dummy several hundred times and see if you can actually reach 45% crit (max crit possible) with regular defenses or 50% with squire (since they have an extra theoretical 5% from shield)


When you say things like that it makes it difficult to take the other points you made seriously (which I'd like to because I have 0 experience with multiplayer game development) because best case scenario you're not being abundantly clear with this, very simple, point on crit%.  OR you were easily fooled in being convinced with "proof" that wasn't proof of the claim at all, which hurts your credibility as a reliable source all the same.


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@KnowsNoLimits quote:


@DskDemonic quote:

so i just want to put this out there. it seems the only people who are complaining about the hero deck are the players who have spent gems and bought extra char slots. A free player isn't going to have more then 4 chars because he never bought more slots cause he never spent money to unlock more. At the end of the day, the complete removal of the hero deck only helps people who have 1. bought more char slots and 2. leveled/created more then 4 chars.


Touching on another previous point. The code that needs to be rewritten for the removal of the hero deck is so massive that arguing that adding extra stats is moot. To add extra stats its probably around 3-5 lines as all it needs to be done is added to a couple diff string lists. 


Again touching on another post in this thread. Crit does not seem to be hard capped at 26 or 30% as proved by a picture in this thread and i have personally seen higher then 30% on traps and various other towers/walls.


And lastly touching on another point. The packet increase by completely removing the hero deck would put tremendous amounts of pressure on the servers that trendy is hosting as well as any players internet. That being said it will start limiting players who can play the game as well as reducing the total number of players that TEs servers can handle.

You sure like touching alot of points.

Lets see here, already you are wrong classifying people altogether and saying we want the HD gone because we have invested gems into extra slots. I'm the opposite, I bought 2 extra slots if i recall, but I'm so bored with leveling multiple characters that I only leveled one of them to 50.

The reason I want the HD gone is for diversity and variety to return to the game. The only limitations you should have is your imagination when coming up with an effective build, not some BS artificial limitation which sets a meta as standard and forces you to play a certain way to progress.

As for the coding required to undo the HD, go cry me a ***ing river. If Trendy were stupid enough to code the HD in, then that's on their heads. I really could care less. It was a monumental stupid decision to add such a limiting aspect to a game like this and if it takes months and many late nights to abolish the HD then so be it.

Also WTF are you talking about saying having multiple characters would put a strain on there servers?

Time to bring up that piece of crap called DDE into it again. It was a testing ground for DD2, since it was server side as well. It used the very same playverse servers as well and there were no limitations on how many characters you could have, I had 20 myself if I recall. Nothing as absurd as the HD existed, because what a stupid idea that would be.

Please don't comment if you have no idea what you are talking about and make up *** about having a character limit is meant to save their server's so they wouldn't implode.

I'm curious why you dislike the hero deck so much if you really arn't even using all of them. you have 1 50 and the rest are somewhere inbetween. The hero deck issue shouldn't apply to you in anyway shape or form.

I never said the severs would implode but alright. also if all you are gonna do is complain about "artificial" limitations play a different game. Simple solution. 

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@Pachipachio quote:


@DskDemonic quote:


Again touching on another post in this thread. Crit does not seem to be hard capped at 26 or 30% as proved by a picture in this thread and i have personally seen higher then 30% on traps and various other towers/walls.


I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't.....


That picture you saw was of the blaze balloon.  That doesn't prove anything for obvious reasons.  And every single "test" people have brought to the table thus far, including you, is in regards to the tooltip.  

Even if you could (doubt it though, unless that crit% large sphere is active) replicate seeing over 30% on any defense (besides the blaze balloon obviously) it would only prove, definitively, that the tooltip can go over 30%.  Not whether or not crit has any sort of cap

There's only one (afaik, but I'd be happy to hear anyone's experiment) way to test what crit% caps at, if it has any cap.   And that is to use a defense to hit a dummy several hundred times and see if you can actually reach 45% crit (max crit possible) with regular defenses or 50% with squire (since they have an extra theoretical 5% from shield)


When you say things like that it makes it difficult to take the other points you made seriously (which I'd like to because I have 0 experience with multiplayer game development) because best case scenario you're not being abundantly clear with this, very simple, point on crit%.  OR you were easily fooled in being convinced with "proof" that wasn't proof of the claim at all, which hurts your credibility as a reliable source all the same.


I can understand this point. Thanks for the clarification. The only other way I could see to do this would be to capture the damage data from the packets sent and received from the server and create a plot graph.

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Didn't expect such a classy response!  This is how discussions with people who don't share the same  specializations/knowledge/expertise should be had

Really appreciate someone not taking things personally, much love :)


Your idea sounds great since it'd be pretty simple to automate (I assume - don't actually have experience with intercepting packets but I've been around enough to have seen a lot of people talk about it).  And that'd be the trick to testing crits.. cause I sure as fk am not spending time counting off hundreds of hits and crits manually lol


If dummies had HP (or recorded total damage done like the upadate in DD1 just included) I could do it with time it takes to do X damage and be able to extrapolate from that the # of crits and regular hits


Anyway, that's a lot of rambling on a topic that's already off-topic from the thread.  

Cheers man

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I have 5 50's and the my sixth character is 35 atm, otherwise why in the hell would I buy 2 extra slots?

Use abit of logic here.

I have no incentive to buy more Hero slots if I can't use them when I want to.

So if I complain about an obviously flawed system I should go play another game?

Ok well it's people like me that get results, if you want to be a yes men and kiss up to Trendy and kiss there ass with everything they do then go right ahead. I rather give them honest feedback and compliment them when have done things right and are on the right track, but also call them out on things that are obviously not going to help them in the longterm. 

It's not just me either, read this thread and you will see how other people feel about the HD. But hey they should all go play a different game right?

Well give it time and they will move on if the HD isn't addressed.

So I will offer you a simple solution now, if you are happy with a mediocre Tower defense game go play DDE and let the people who want to see this game succeed give them the feedback that they need no matter how harsh it is so that we can make this game into something special.

I'm curious why you dislike the hero deck so much if you really arn't even using all of them. you have 1 50 and the rest are somewhere inbetween. The hero deck issue shouldn't apply to you in anyway shape or form.I never said the severs would implode but alright. also if all you are gonna do is complain about "artificial" limitations play a different game. Simple solution.

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@Skyaliciouse quote:

Maps actually scale to number of players, so if you have 4 players in a lane, there will be more heavy lanes, so basically everyone is required to hold a lane which is do able with a good dps archer without having anything op like the bow from ramparts that removes phys resists.  I think it's pretty balanced once you've got it figured out how it works! 

Yes maps scale with multiple people.  But like I've said, adding 1 extra hard lane a few levels to monsters does not = the additional impact of an additional DPS character.  

I didn't think someone would actually contend that solo play is extremely poorly balanced with multiplayer play in regards to difficulty.  But maybe you're being misrepresented again and the pronoun 'it' in "I think it's pretty balanced" isn't supposed to reference to the main idea of the sentence prior.



But yes, you're absolutely right in the rest of the post (but walls of text are pretty hard to read :x could separate ideas a bit better), hero deck has little to do with difficulty.  It's always been about more fun, a more streamlined experience, and having a lot more replayability thanks to all the new builds coming in (I've been in no less than 6 of these threads over the last year and I've always remained consistent on this)

The reason why you see so much time spent on things that you correctly realize aren't directly related to the hero deck is because people come in with arguments like: "game would be too easy without the hero deck" or "game is already easy enough" - both of which is bull*** because either the person is playing multiplayer which is wayyyyyyyyy easier than solo or they don't understand that without the hero deck we'd still be limited by DU and the effective increase in DPS by having access to all towers would be paltry at best.  

which is precisely why a bunch of people have to explain the difficulty and solo/multiplayer issues, even though they have nothing to do with the hero deck directly. 

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@KnowsNoLimits quote:

I disagree.

It's a known fact reported by Trendy that most players don't even have 4 characters, so your example is flawed, nice try though. Besides you can always have additional slots cost gems as well as Wyvern tokens, which gives the player the choice and still keeps it from being p2w.

If anything and I have spoke to Josh about this they are losing more money than making it. They are trying to fund the game with skins atm, yet why should people buy more than one or two skins for a Class if you can only have 4 Hero's available to you at all times?

In DD1 I had a different skin for each of my characters, so I could tell which character was what. In DD2 I have no incentive to do the same thing, just by the limitation the HD applies.

The HD is making the game stagnant and these new build weapons may change the meta alittle, but it's not going to save it.

So lets see what the HD is currently achieving for Trendy.

- Losing money off skins which are meant to fund the game

- Boring the consumers

- Promoting DPS characters who like to pew, pew

- Keeping a standard meta

- Little to no strategy involved, because you are forced to build one way or you will simply not progress

- Killing off replay value by not letting you make different characters with a specific purpose (if you reach end game you will understand this one)

There is so much right in this it hurts. And anyone who thinks its pay to win is high as a kite. There is no competition here we are not pitted against eachother...... This is a team game and tower defense. So your saying DD1 was a p2w format also?


Also the fact that everyone starts off with enough character slots to solo to NM4.... Why people would think its p2w with character slots I have no idea I guess I need to become as High as they are.


The HD should be gone and I dont know why they thought it was a good idea to limit people to only 4 heroes.... With no HD we have so many options for different map builds and not the same old stagnate meta.

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@M e t h O z quote:

Like i said before.. is a players mentality problem not a game problem!!


Can you expand on this at all?  How is it a player mentality problem exclusively?  Are you open to the idea that it could be a developer problem?

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Well guys, sad to be true but P2W always with more advantage than F2P so just stop those whining about fairness. Please remove hero deck, if you want everyone to be happy then allow gold/token for additional hero slot. Peace =D.

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@M e t h O z quote:

Like i said before.. is a players mentality problem not a game problem!!


Honestly this guy is right. Us DD1 players want to be able to have fun like in DD1 and come up with cool builds. But trendy seemingly wants to take this game in a different direction.  I mean they did start it out as a MOBA i guess they want to do some kind of persistent online multiplayer only thing. The only thing i don't understand is why they keep saying they want solo players too. You cant have your cake and eat it too.


I've been checking out the DD1 forums and the community driven update looks pretty cool :). I think going back to DD1 is just easier than trying to change trendys mind on the philosophy of this game.

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@Pegazul quote:
@M e t h O z quote:

Like i said before.. is a players mentality problem not a game problem!!


Honestly this guy is right. Us DD1 players want to be able to have fun like in DD1 and come up with cool builds. But trendy seemingly wants to take this game in a different direction.  I mean they did start it out as a MOBA i guess they want to do some kind of persistent online multiplayer only thing. The only thing i don't understand is why they keep saying they want solo players too. You cant have your cake and eat it too.


I've been checking out the DD1 forums and the community driven update looks pretty cool :). I think going back to DD1 is just easier than trying to change trendys mind on the philosophy of this game.

The MOBA version would have made sense as a F2P game. Unfortunately the players found out that the sequel to one of their favorites games was not going to be a sequel at all and instead just a use of the name, so they took it back to the roots. I don't think this game will ever bring in the amount of money they had hoped it would. Especially at the prices they are charging for things. They keep making these huge steam packs to justify a high price tag. I honestly think they need to dream smaller on the sales front in order to get a larger number of total sales. I know there has not been one thing I have seen that I would be willing to spend the same amount of money as a whole game. And they want you to spend this every month??? 24 dollars a month for the newest costume pack.

So I hear some of you now "But Chappy don't you want to support the developers?" The answer is yes, I do like to support developers if the game is heading in a direction that I like. This game is not and until I find it to be an enjoyable game that I want to spend time playing then I see no need to throw money at what I consider a boring game. I feel the Hero Deck is one of the biggest detractors to enjoying the game.

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This thread made me think of a thread that i wanted to post for some time about the ftp model of dd2, but more of that later.  

Here is my suggestion for the hero deck. Mind that i have just 3 weeks playing the game. 

People that pay to play the game are frustrated with the hero deck. 

I (ftp at least so far) am frustrated with the hero deck. 

I think people have exposed a lot of reasons for the first one, so i am going to focus on what i am familiar.

Free to play(ers) should be rewarded for spending time in the game. I want to make a bunch of builds, but i cant because i can just have 4 chars. I would have so many more if i didnt have that limit. 

Here is my idea. At the construction phase all players are asked to pick a char to build. Ideally there are 4 players and each one pick 1 char. It should be adjusted when there is just one player, or when there are not 4 players. At wave 2, you can pick the same or a different one from your pool of heroes. Then at the battle phase, everybody is asked to pick 1 hero. 

Now we all start with 4 chars. We can buy more with cash. We should be able to buy them in some way by playing the game. Wyvern tokens are not good enough. It should be a way that the more we play the faster we can get it. Gold cold be a way. Some other currency that drops every game may be. Some experience like that you get on a char and when it gets to some point you can make another char of the same category maybe. There are several ways of doing it :P

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the idea of beeing asked which hero you want to take is good, but what if there are more heros, so you would like to build with 5 different heros - this wouldnt help on longtime

heres my opinion to the whole hero deck system:
if you can have unlimited heros, many people will cry and stop playing

if you leave it like now, many people will cry and stop playing

if you add a possibility to buy more slots, many people will cry and stop playing

so there will never be a hero deck that fit to everyone

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Anyone have any thoughts on this post? Just curious.

quote:

Hello all. I'm still low level and haven't experienced any of these HD issues yet but reading through this thread some ideas came to mind that I figured I'd share. This mainly applies to multiplayer matches.

What if you could swap out Heroes from your Hero Deck during any build phase? The catch would be that any towers you had built with the swapped character would disappear. Would this allow players to experiment with new/interesting/fun builds without fearing that someone might not have a meta (necessary) build character in the game AND keep the HD philosophy intact? 

(ie 1. You bring Frosty, Waller, DPS, and an experimental Monk. No one has a Traptress but someone else has a Waller. You can swap your Waller for your Traptress. Or something like that?)

(ie 2. In a 4 player game, everyone would be able to bring/contribute 1-2 meta builds and have 2-3 other builds to experiment and play with.)

Would this allow more experimental/fun builds in multiplayer games while also motivating more contribution from multiple players?


I realize this doesn't solve Solo issues, but would it at least make multiplayer more fun?

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@0564 quote:

the idea of beeing asked which hero you want to take is good, but what if there are more heros, so you would like to build with 5 different heros - this wouldnt help on longtime

heres my opinion to the whole hero deck system:
if you can have unlimited heros, many people will cry and stop playing

if you leave it like now, many people will cry and stop playing

if you add a possibility to buy more slots, many people will cry and stop playing

so there will never be a hero deck that fit to everyone

I'm not so sure if people would leave if they got rid of the hero deck. Granted if they kept with the hero slot system they would need to add a way for f2p gamers to purchase hero slots via gold, wyvern tokens, or another form of currency obtainable in game.

I do think people would eventually stop playing with the current deck because it is very limiting and once more heroes are made it will become more limiting especially for solo players that already are playing at a disadvantage.

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