So here we go again, new builds are coming but we are stuck with the Hero Deck

The limitation of the Hero Deck is becoming more and more apparent and it's stagnating the meta.

How is this not the number 1 priority to fix?

So lets see we have teleporting dummies, which looked very underwhelming in today's dev stream and they will be looked over if they are just a novelty.

I'm going to save you the time and effort in what to do with the Hero Deck. You say you are in talks of revamping the HD, the only way that is going to work is if you abolish it. No matter how you revamp it you are still limiting the player's choices.

You are enforcing a limited build every time and that may change with what towers will be used this new patch, but in time that will be stagnant as well.

You know why DD1 was so fun? it's because it wasn't limited with how you could build a map. You were free to experiment with how you wanted.

@KnowsNoLimits quote:

... and it's stagnating the meta.

This. 

Why do people use traps more than any other form of tower damage? Because a traptress can deal both physical and magic damage effectively and only takes up a single hero deck slot, which leaves room for a hero dps character in the typical build. 

If we remove the limitation that the hero deck places upon players, maybe we will see different and more creative builds become acceptable. Join a NM4 quickmatch now and start placing cannons and poison towers and you'll get kicked faster than you can say "new meta"

So, can we just test how the playerbase reacts to the removal of the hero deck? We're in alpha right now, this is the time to be testing things out and to see what works and what doesn't work. The hero deck can always be reworked or redesigned, but can we just test what it's removal would look like?

Maps were limited in another way... the dreaded build timer

I think the hero deck should stay, or rather, its a necessary evil in this game. The reason it is so important is that the hero deck prevents character slots from being a P2W mechanic. This is a really important part of the hero deck. Currently in the game any F2P player can have access to 4 slots, and that is all. If you sign up for the newsletter you can get enough gems to get a 5th character slot.

Without a hero deck, having more characters is equivalent to having more power. Lets look at what DD2 would look like if there wasn't a hero deck. The current meta is traps/walls/frosties/serenity/DPS. A F2P player currently cannot have all of those things. This means that a F2P player has to cut one of the elements of the current meta out, while a player who paid for gems will be able to utilize all of the aspects of the meta. This means the player who paid has an inherent advantage in completing content over the f2p player because he paid money. And this gap will only get worse as newer and better builds emerge. If the meta evolves to needing all sorts of towers and builds, and they remove the hero deck, what will the F2P player do? He won't be able to be as good as the person who paid money because he doesn't have character slots. If the meta evolves to needing 6 builders and a DPS because the hero deck is removed, then that inherent advantage of paying money will always be there.

The hero deck serves as a way for Trendy to both monetize character slots and allow F2P players the ability to be on the same level as players who pay. Simply removing the deck is not a solution. Expanding the hero deck is not a solution unless you also give all players the amount of character slots = to the deck, which is basically asking Trendy to give away money. I don't like the hero deck. But I recognize its necessary in the game as it stands. For the hero deck to go away, there needs to be a way for Trendy to both monetize character slots and prevent character slots from being a p2w mechanic, and I cannot see any solution that allows for both.

Summed it up perfectly.

@Sadinar quote:

I think the hero deck should stay, or rather, its a necessary evil in this game. The reason it is so important is that the hero deck prevents character slots from being a P2W mechanic. This is a really important part of the hero deck. Currently in the game any F2P player can have access to 4 slots, and that is all. If you sign up for the newsletter you can get enough gems to get a 5th character slot.

Without a hero deck, having more characters is equivalent to having more power. Lets look at what DD2 would look like if there wasn't a hero deck. The current meta is traps/walls/frosties/serenity/DPS. A F2P player currently cannot have all of those things. This means that a F2P player has to cut one of the elements of the current meta out, while a player who paid for gems will be able to utilize all of the aspects of the meta. This means the player who paid has an inherent advantage in completing content over the f2p player because he paid money. And this gap will only get worse as newer and better builds emerge. If the meta evolves to needing all sorts of towers and builds, and they remove the hero deck, what will the F2P player do? He won't be able to be as good as the person who paid money because he doesn't have character slots. If the meta evolves to needing 6 builders and a DPS because the hero deck is removed, then that inherent advantage of paying money will always be there.

The hero deck serves as a way for Trendy to both monetize character slots and allow F2P players the ability to be on the same level as players who pay. Simply removing the deck is not a solution. Expanding the hero deck is not a solution unless you also give all players the amount of character slots = to the deck, which is basically asking Trendy to give away money. I don't like the hero deck. But I recognize its necessary in the game as it stands. For the hero deck to go away, there needs to be a way for Trendy to both monetize character slots and prevent character slots from being a p2w mechanic, and I cannot see any solution that allows for both.

@Sadinar quote:

I think the hero deck should stay, or rather, its a necessary evil in this game. The reason it is so important is that the hero deck prevents character slots from being a P2W mechanic. This is a really important part of the hero deck. Currently in the game any F2P player can have access to 4 slots, and that is all. If you sign up for the newsletter you can get enough gems to get a 5th character slot.

Without a hero deck, having more characters is equivalent to having more power. Lets look at what DD2 would look like if there wasn't a hero deck. The current meta is traps/walls/frosties/serenity/DPS. A F2P player currently cannot have all of those things. This means that a F2P player has to cut one of the elements of the current meta out, while a player who paid for gems will be able to utilize all of the aspects of the meta. This means the player who paid has an inherent advantage in completing content over the f2p player because he paid money. And this gap will only get worse as newer and better builds emerge. If the meta evolves to needing all sorts of towers and builds, and they remove the hero deck, what will the F2P player do? He won't be able to be as good as the person who paid money because he doesn't have character slots. If the meta evolves to needing 6 builders and a DPS because the hero deck is removed, then that inherent advantage of paying money will always be there.

The hero deck serves as a way for Trendy to both monetize character slots and allow F2P players the ability to be on the same level as players who pay. Simply removing the deck is not a solution. Expanding the hero deck is not a solution unless you also give all players the amount of character slots = to the deck, which is basically asking Trendy to give away money. I don't like the hero deck. But I recognize its necessary in the game as it stands. For the hero deck to go away, there needs to be a way for Trendy to both monetize character slots and prevent character slots from being a p2w mechanic, and I cannot see any solution that allows for both.

Actually trying to get the perfect armageddon to prove this wrong and have been for weeks -.-  frosty/dps in one slot, trololo

@Sadinar quote:

I think the hero deck should stay, or rather, its a necessary evil in this game. The reason it is so important is that the hero deck prevents character slots from being a P2W mechanic. This is a really important part of the hero deck. Currently in the game any F2P player can have access to 4 slots, and that is all. If you sign up for the newsletter you can get enough gems to get a 5th character slot.

Without a hero deck, having more characters is equivalent to having more power. Lets look at what DD2 would look like if there wasn't a hero deck. The current meta is traps/walls/frosties/serenity/DPS. A F2P player currently cannot have all of those things. This means that a F2P player has to cut one of the elements of the current meta out, while a player who paid for gems will be able to utilize all of the aspects of the meta. This means the player who paid has an inherent advantage in completing content over the f2p player because he paid money. And this gap will only get worse as newer and better builds emerge. If the meta evolves to needing all sorts of towers and builds, and they remove the hero deck, what will the F2P player do? He won't be able to be as good as the person who paid money because he doesn't have character slots. If the meta evolves to needing 6 builders and a DPS because the hero deck is removed, then that inherent advantage of paying money will always be there.

The hero deck serves as a way for Trendy to both monetize character slots and allow F2P players the ability to be on the same level as players who pay. Simply removing the deck is not a solution. Expanding the hero deck is not a solution unless you also give all players the amount of character slots = to the deck, which is basically asking Trendy to give away money. I don't like the hero deck. But I recognize its necessary in the game as it stands. For the hero deck to go away, there needs to be a way for Trendy to both monetize character slots and prevent character slots from being a p2w mechanic, and I cannot see any solution that allows for both.

Exactly what i was thinking..

unlocking the Hero Deck would make the game 100% pay2win.. the person with the most hero slots for different full maxed builds will win..

NOT to mention that it would ALSO take away the challenge factor of the game..
IF you can just have a bunch of hero slots to make every single possible build combination out there and bring them all to a map.. then what's the point? Just farm all the builds and have every maxed combination on your own.. why play with others? why play at all, if u know eventually u'll just have everything? just like everyone else with enough Character slots.. lol

I'm starting to come to the conclusion that the F2P model is the root of every problem. Charge once for the game and be done with it. I enjoy the game but it will never live up to DD1 with these stupid limitations to keep the game "fair" for everyone.

The hero deck could be removed if they gate hero slots with wyvern tokens or gold instead. Having to pay real money for additional slots just feels wrong. Costumes and other cosmetics make perfect sense, but gating heroes behind a paywall doesn't make sense because they are at the core of the game and shouldn't be treated as a nicety.

Do you need costumes? No, but people enjoy customization and there's nothing wrong with that.

Do you need builders? Absolutely. So wtf are they doing behind a paywall?

@M e t h O z quote:

@Sadinar quote:

stuff

Exactly what i was thinking..

unlocking the Hero Deck would make the game 100% pay2win.. the person with the most hero slots for different full maxed builds will win..

NOT to mention that it would ALSO take away the challenge factor of the game..
IF you can just have a bunch of hero slots to make every single possible build combination out there and bring them all to a map.. then what's the point? Just farm all the builds and have every maxed combination on your own.. why play with others? why play at all, if u know eventually u'll just have everything? just like everyone else with enough Character slots.. lol

Could unlock and limit it in one simple change, just requires a bit of programming to accomplish

@roboticaust quote:

Maps were limited in another way... the dreaded build timer

I actually really liked the build timer in DD1. If you are a somewhat capable gamer you can almost always spend your DUs before the timer is up. Of course it requires a little bit of skill instead of endless grind like DD2.

Perhaps adding 1 more slot to the hero deck would be sufficient - it would allow for different builds without giving experienced players too much power over noobies without character slots.

I disagree.

It's a known fact reported by Trendy that most players don't even have 4 characters, so your example is flawed, nice try though. Besides you can always have additional slots cost gems as well as Wyvern tokens, which gives the player the choice and still keeps it from being p2w.

If anything and I have spoke to Josh about this they are losing more money than making it. They are trying to fund the game with skins atm, yet why should people buy more than one or two skins for a Class if you can only have 4 Hero's available to you at all times?

In DD1 I had a different skin for each of my characters, so I could tell which character was what. In DD2 I have no incentive to do the same thing, just by the limitation the HD applies.

The HD is making the game stagnant and these new build weapons may change the meta alittle, but it's not going to save it.

So lets see what the HD is currently achieving for Trendy.

- Losing money off skins which are meant to fund the game

- Boring the consumers

- Promoting DPS characters who like to pew, pew

- Keeping a standard meta

- Little to no strategy involved, because you are forced to build one way or you will simply not progress

- Killing off replay value by not letting you make different characters with a specific purpose (if you reach end game you will understand this one)

As some one who paid for the game id like to be able to have fun and use creative builds. Being stuck in some ***ty meta because of P2W issues in a COOP game is just silly.

@KnowsNoLimits quote:

I disagree.

It's a known fact reported by Trendy that most players don't even have 4 characters, so your example is flawed, nice try though. Besides you can always have additional slots cost gems as well as Wyvern tokens, which gives the player the choice and still keeps it from being p2w.

If anything and I have spoke to Josh about this they are losing more money than making it. They are trying to fund the game with skins atm, yet why should people buy more than one or two skins for a Class if you can only have 4 Hero's available to you at all times?

In DD1 I had a different skin for each of my characters, so I could tell which character was what. In DD2 I have no incentive to do the same thing, just by the limitation the HD applies.

The HD is making the game stagnant and these new build weapons may change the meta alittle, but it's not going to save it.

So lets see what the HD is currently achieving for Trendy.

- Losing money off skins which are meant to fund the game

- Boring the consumers

- Promoting DPS characters who like to pew, pew

- Keeping a standard meta

- Little to no strategy involved, because you are forced to build one way or you will simply not progress

- Killing off replay value by not letting you make different characters with a specific purpose (if you reach end game you will understand this one)

Pretty much agree with this.

Game is getting pretty stale for me with such limited choices.

I think the hero deck should be removed because it really does stagnate the meta. If the hero deck wasn't in place...I'd put a lot more hours into the game and look for unique builds all day long.  The game does get stale/boring at the moment because I can only bring 3-4 builders. 

@Pegazul quote:

@roboticaust quote:

Maps were limited in another way... the dreaded build timer

I actually really liked the build timer in DD1. If you are a somewhat capable gamer you can almost always spend your DUs before the timer is up. Of course it requires a little bit of skill instead of endless grind like DD2.

I liked it too to a certain point.  Part of the reason we got the heroes deck was to enforce cooperation.  Hard to do that with a timer involved which is why I think it was phased out.  Just imagine having that timer now with people whining "sell this, move that, mines better" lol

@KnowsNoLimits quote:

stuff...

Ton of valid points here, but I still believe the deck can be changed to make it usable instead of a pure frustration to endgamers.  I really like the idea of slots for tokens as well.  Players know they can get tokens daily which may ultimately encourage them to buy another slot and another skin for said new slot.

However, the current implimentation of the deck is a fuming pile of steaming frustration that isn't helping Trendy or the players bottom line.  I would love to see it solved and not dissolved though, since it was implimented to push players towards working together; where as dd1/dde it was all about that one geared guy setting up for 15 other people.

I've been tinkering with a solution I think might work, but any solution I could give will cost them paid programming hours to impliment.  If a dev would like to hear me out as a fellow programmer with a BA in game design and an avid fan of the franchise for almost 2 years, shoot me a line.

@roboticaust quote:

Ton of valid points here, but I still believe the deck can be changed to make it usable instead of a pure frustration to endgamers.  I really like the idea of slots for tokens as well.  Players know they can get tokens daily which may ultimately encourage them to buy another slot and another skin for said new slot.

However, the current implimentation of the deck is a fuming pile of steaming frustration that isn't helping Trendy or the players bottom line.  I would love to see it solved and not dissolved though, since it was implimented to push players towards working together; where as dd1/dde it was all about that one geared guy setting up for 15 other people.

I've been tinkering with a solution I think might work, but any solution I could give will cost them paid programming hours to impliment.  If a dev would like to hear me out as a fellow programmer with a BA in game design and an avid fan of the franchise for almost 2 years, shoot me a line.

One player builds it all still happens in DD2, you are just penalized trying to help others now. That's right, now if you want to help someone progress who may not be as well geared as you then prepare for a battle.

Sure you may run them a couple of NM4 Gates Incursions and have your E-peen stroked by all the ass kissing you receive from them after the run is over, but would you seriously take them on a NM4 Betsy run or a Spooky map?

Not a chance, as you just can't cover all your bases to do so.

Sorry I rather have the option of one player being able to build it all and still let joining players have the option to bring all their characters and contribute something to the build other than a DPS.

It sucks that you have to guess which character to leave out in order for you to bring a DPS.

Which usually is a waller, but that can bite you in the ass when people think the same as you and then you have no Squire or they are leeching and you have to deal with 75k walls. Yes this has happened to me when playing with randoms.

You force the players hand. you are pushing end game players to soley group together, because they can co-ordinate before hand. With randoms you don't have this luxury.

The con's far out weigh the pro's when it comes to the HD .

The Hero Deck is just pure trash.

what if endgamers got like extra deck? huh? huh?

yeah i dont know anything im so sorry

Umm, last I checked, trap crit chance capped at 30%

How did you test

I can't see more than 30% on anything of mine (on tooltip - stat page hasn't shown any caps) but I won't exactly go and try to test a 30% tower vs a 34% tower (my current max with gear)

Maybe if I had 50% on squire (max any character can have thanks to free 5% from shield) I'd see if it was actually 50% as per the stat page OR 30% as per the tooltip by recording a bunch of numbers from training dummies over a couple minutes

I'd be confident with that result.  Not going to try 34% vs 30% though

Don't really see how you could have tested it and come up with a specific number as 26%.  Especially with traps..

@Pachipachio quote:

How did you test

I can't see more than 30% on anything of mine (on tooltip - stat page hasn't shown any caps) but I won't exactly go and try to test a 30% tower vs a 34% tower (my current max with gear)

Maybe if I had 50% on squire (max any character can have thanks to free 5% from shield) I'd see if it was actually 50% as per the stat page OR 30% as per the tooltip by recording a bunch of numbers from training dummies over a couple minutes

I'd be confident with that result.  Not going to try 34% vs 30% though

Don't really see how you could have tested it and come up with a specific number as 26%.  Especially with traps..

Yeah I wasn't about to ask how or say prove it even if he didn't mention "don't ask".  Something about supposed tests and number crunches on an object you can't even training dummy, plus all the rng... yeah.  Figured it was best left dead in the air than to feed the troll.

I'm not getting entrenched in this again. The Hero Deck is awful, it doesn't do what they claim it does. Some could argue it actually does the opposite of what they claim it does. I still haven't played this game since sep and I have no desire to now, at all.  As long as the Hero Deck is in the game I very much doubt I will enjoy it, especially with more and more builds coming out. I truly believe that most people have played DD1 and now try DD2 and get insanely bored with it after about 2 weeks. I blame the Hero Deck because I believe it limits replay enjoyment by stifling creative builds that make grinding suck less. I continue to watch the dev stream, check the boards, and watch the Steam Charts.  If they do anything with the Hero Deck I will come back and try but at this point I don't see a reason to. All the updates are focused more on making money than fixing issues voiced by the community (not just HD). Kudos do need to be given to the upcoming patch for working on the 30-50 grind and moving insane out of end game.

@Pegazul quote:

@roboticaust quote:

Maps were limited in another way... the dreaded build timer

I actually really liked the build timer in DD1. If you are a somewhat capable gamer you can almost always spend your DUs before the timer is up. Of course it requires a little bit of skill instead of endless grind like DD2.

I agree I liked learning what corners I could cut, jumps I had to make just to save a few seconds. Also added strategic depth to figure out what best to build in the first round. Also made the speed stat important.

@Sadinar quote:

I think the hero deck should stay, or rather, its a necessary evil in this game. The reason it is so important is that the hero deck prevents character slots from being a P2W mechanic. This is a really important part of the hero deck. Currently in the game any F2P player can have access to 4 slots, and that is all. If you sign up for the newsletter you can get enough gems to get a 5th character slot.

Without a hero deck, having more characters is equivalent to having more power. Lets look at what DD2 would look like if there wasn't a hero deck. The current meta is traps/walls/frosties/serenity/DPS. A F2P player currently cannot have all of those things. This means that a F2P player has to cut one of the elements of the current meta out, while a player who paid for gems will be able to utilize all of the aspects of the meta. This means the player who paid has an inherent advantage in completing content over the f2p player because he paid money. And this gap will only get worse as newer and better builds emerge. If the meta evolves to needing all sorts of towers and builds, and they remove the hero deck, what will the F2P player do? He won't be able to be as good as the person who paid money because he doesn't have character slots. If the meta evolves to needing 6 builders and a DPS because the hero deck is removed, then that inherent advantage of paying money will always be there.

The hero deck serves as a way for Trendy to both monetize character slots and allow F2P players the ability to be on the same level as players who pay. Simply removing the deck is not a solution. Expanding the hero deck is not a solution unless you also give all players the amount of character slots = to the deck, which is basically asking Trendy to give away money. I don't like the hero deck. But I recognize its necessary in the game as it stands. For the hero deck to go away, there needs to be a way for Trendy to both monetize character slots and prevent character slots from being a p2w mechanic, and I cannot see any solution that allows for both.

You are actually getting me to post something as I continue my protest of the hero deck.

This idea is soooo full of assumptions. Last I read, people were whining they could only group with DPS Huntresses. Unless someone has five of the same niche class and spec, it is far more likely people simply don't have more options.

In a P2W model, people they pay gain an unfair advantage. Having unlimited builders is NOT an unfair advantage when so many just want to (and only do) build. Running hundreds of hours of DD1, I don't recall a single run where I wasn't allowed to build if it wasn't solo or I declared I was builder. Typically you are expected to upgrade and repair. Now with more viability running around, you can upgrade, repair, and DPS. I don't need to pay a penny to do that.

Lastly, the money making idea of cosmetics only still involves having a player willing to part with money. If there is a legit reason someone WANTS more characters, or WANTS more outfits, they can both pay. There are no gates involved by not paying. There is no advantage at all.

Hero deck be gone ... it's a pain in the a...

You are all just whiny babies that want easy stuff.. rofl!! :S

If you don't like playing a huntress like every other crybaby out there that wants easy stuff, then don't play it.. lol

If they actually have the hero deck unlocked.. you all just gonna "try other builds", find out that you cant play other builds cuz they're not as effective as you'd like your easy runs to be.. and then come back here and whine about Huntress being better and go back to your current building state meta but with an extra heroes..

is not a game problem.. its a players mentality problem..