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DD2 is well on its way to being dead


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I like how people talk about a game in alpha being dead. It hasn't even been released as a full game yet. Make some sense

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@dreamanime quote:

Same for the builds, i don't want to hear from people who dont play anymore that only frost and traps is possible. It isn't! Like already some starting to say, more builds are there. People just need to get the gear up now for it (which is fairly hard though with how the loot drops) and then it should be easier then before, or at last same level. Overall the flow from start to nm4 is quit good now. Many players said that and even old one created new chars or deleated their old one to have a "fresh" start. Sure there is alot to tweak and tune on endgame and ballancing but stuff needs time and they can't do everything in one go.

I wanted to comment on the issue with builds. Its really, really, really hard to try out new builds. This is a combination of two problems, the hero deck and matchmaking. A big part of the reason traps are so prominent is that you have no idea who you are going to queue into it. If you only bring a cannon squire, suddenly you might find yourself in a group with no magical damage, and you autolose to phys resist lanes. The hero deck means you are pressured into bringing traptress due to her ability to handle all lanes on one character. The combination of not knowing who is in your group, and the flexibility of traptress, results in builds being bad.

The issue is not one of options, but of the combination of matchmaking and hero deck. I actually think a lot less people would complain about the hero deck if matchmaking was much more robust. 


@Enfo quote:

I like how people talk about a game in alpha being dead. It hasn't even been released as a full game yet. Make some sense

I really, really, really dislike people using Alpha as a generic defense for a game. The game is free to play for everyone, there are no more content wipes, and they are facilitating micro transactions for cosmetics. I understand why they made the decisions they did, but people defend the game as being an alpha game. And it doesn't fly. Plenty of games on steam die in their alpha phase. They have early-access alpha, people try the game out, it isn't good, and they fail to get enough traction and fizzle out. You can't just say "oh its in alpha!" and use that to justify problems which are driving away the player base, and use it as a catch-all to dismiss any concerns. A game can absolutely die in the alpha phase, and the people bringing this up are ones who are concerned with that occurring.


That said, I don't agree that that the game is dying. The new patch came out and there has been a slight upswing in the amount of players playing. Whether it is enough or not keep the game going, and whether or not it will remain at these levels after the holiday season I have no idea. But the fact that people did come back to the game when content was released indicates that the game is not on its way to being dead.

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@Sadinar quote:


@dreamanime quote:

Same for the builds, i don't want to hear from people who dont play anymore that only frost and traps is possible. It isn't! Like already some starting to say, more builds are there. People just need to get the gear up now for it (which is fairly hard though with how the loot drops) and then it should be easier then before, or at last same level. Overall the flow from start to nm4 is quit good now. Many players said that and even old one created new chars or deleated their old one to have a "fresh" start. Sure there is alot to tweak and tune on endgame and ballancing but stuff needs time and they can't do everything in one go.

I wanted to comment on the issue with builds. Its really, really, really hard to try out new builds. This is a combination of two problems, the hero deck and matchmaking. A big part of the reason traps are so prominent is that you have no idea who you are going to queue into it. If you only bring a cannon squire, suddenly you might find yourself in a group with no magical damage, and you autolose to phys resist lanes. The hero deck means you are pressured into bringing traptress due to her ability to handle all lanes on one character. The combination of not knowing who is in your group, and the flexibility of traptress, results in builds being bad.

The issue is not one of options, but of the combination of matchmaking and hero deck. I actually think a lot less people would complain about the hero deck if matchmaking was much more robust. 


@Enfo quote:

I like how people talk about a game in alpha being dead. It hasn't even been released as a full game yet. Make some sense

I really, really, really dislike people using Alpha as a generic defense for a game. The game is free to play for everyone, there are no more content wipes, and they are facilitating micro transactions for cosmetics. I understand why they made the decisions they did, but people defend the game as being an alpha game. And it doesn't fly. Plenty of games on steam die in their alpha phase. They have early-access alpha, people try the game out, it isn't good, and they fail to get enough traction and fizzle out. You can't just say "oh its in alpha!" and use that to justify problems which are driving away the player base, and use it as a catch-all to dismiss any concerns. A game can absolutely die in the alpha phase, and the people bringing this up are ones who are concerned with that occurring.


That said, I don't agree that that the game is dying. The new patch came out and there has been a slight upswing in the amount of players playing. Whether it is enough or not keep the game going, and whether or not it will remain at these levels after the holiday season I have no idea. But the fact that people did come back to the game when content was released indicates that the game is not on its way to being dead.

Well they could've chosen not to let people participate in early testing at all. That would've rid them of all the complains. And since it's only alpha, use this time to post feedback. 

Seeing it as an excuse is more of an excuse to complain than anything. I'm just happy they're letting people help with everything this early into development, making it possible to shape a game around a lot of things other than the developers vision only.

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@KnowsNoLimits quote:

Agreed, stagnant meta and the number 1 thing that kills the fun of the game personally for me is the Hero Deck. Too limited in what I can build. I don't want to see a increased deck slot, because then the meta will change again and that really is just a bandage to the problem.

i want to see it abolished and never spoken of again.

I can't help people out as much as I want to, unless I drop my waller which sucks because tanking with Squire is so much fun. Same cookie cutter builds = zzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Now I'm going to move onto Onslaught, how they ***ed up here I will never know. Rewards suck, time wasted to build up to the best loot and no option to start from the last wave you cleared. This brings me back to farming Giraffes on DD1 from wave 1-30 Mistymire, not the funnest thing to do.

Survival mode > Onslaught in every way.

The game has huge potential in the future and I agree now is the time to prioritize gameplay over.

Maps feel lacking in layout as well. I would like to see future maps require more strategy and less raw power to clear it than what we have. Like in the Shard's pack in DD1 we had some really cool maps. Which brings me to my next point.

Bring Aquanos back and I don't mean a completely new stage like the new Ramparts/Throne Room. I mean bring the music, layout and just update the graphics.

Game also needs more enemy variety and stuff that will shake things up, not just some more trash mobs. I want to see Sharken, Djinn and Spiders return. Enemies that when they appear will make you stop hiding behind your walls and they become a number one priority and only one enemy comes close to that. Thank you Witherbeasts.

I remember the concept of the Dark Assassin which sounded close to Dark Elf Warrior's, bring him to the game asap.

Nightmare needs to be harder and have unique enemies to it. The best way to combat against that is bring some new unique Hero's. Characters are said to be in the works and we know they will be free, so make them mandatory for a build and that will work out nicely when you take that piece of crap you call the Hero Deck out of the game.

Seriously *** that thing.

Oh and the last thing bring back the Summoner. I miss my god character.

OP in DD1 and DDE, so make him OP in DD2. It's tradition.



Agree with pretty much everything besides making summoner op... that would surely be the last nail in the coffin.


I have some issues with DD2 and those are:

Lack of depth on towers, the combo system is bad joke, towers are WAY more dumber and less useful than DD1 and we have one less option of tower also.

Lack of depth on map layouts... most layouts are really really bad, they are too simple and have to much DU

Lack of depth on Mobs, almost every mobs are the same the only threats are Ogress and Suicide bombers, bring back the Dark elf player hunters, bring back the spiders, but do not restrict it it to NM difficulties.

-_- Bring Back build timers and huge maps.


And get rid of hero deck for the sake of this game otherwise this game will be dead in months. 

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Just saying... I want my DD1 monk back... I don't want to be FORCED to play tower build. Also huntress is a little overpowered compared to all the others when it comes to damage... hero damage that is.(from what I've seen that is.) Her traps are just as good on her.... but look at monk... you sit back and hold right click.... it does no damage... push back sucks because waves happen where you're completely useless... Why change the game so much from DD1? DD1 was awesome! I clocked so many hours on it! DD2 is just... bleh... WHY TRENDY!?! WHY!?!?!?!

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Such a great first post... welcome to Etheria!Emoji_TNT.png

@Swagonborn quote:

Just saying... I want my DD1 monk back... I don't want to be FORCED to play tower build. Also huntress is a little overpowered compared to all the others when it comes to damage... hero damage that is.(from what I've seen that is.) Her traps are just as good on her.... but look at monk... you sit back and hold right click.... it does no damage... push back sucks because waves happen where you're completely useless... Why change the game so much from DD1? DD1 was awesome! I clocked so many hours on it! DD2 is just... bleh... WHY TRENDY!?! WHY!?!?!?!


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@MamaTata quote:

Such a great first post... welcome to Etheria!Emoji_TNT.png

@Swagonborn quote:

Just saying... I want my DD1 monk back... I don't want to be FORCED to play tower build. Also huntress is a little overpowered compared to all the others when it comes to damage... hero damage that is.(from what I've seen that is.) Her traps are just as good on her.... but look at monk... you sit back and hold right click.... it does no damage... push back sucks because waves happen where you're completely useless... Why change the game so much from DD1? DD1 was awesome! I clocked so many hours on it! DD2 is just... bleh... WHY TRENDY!?! WHY!?!?!?!


not sure if sarcasm or not. x.x

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please trendy close the forum, i lose my fun about the game always reading these threads

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So much promise, so little logic.

I'm kind of disappointed in the development team.  Is this the same team that created DD1?  DD1 was perfect until Barbarian/Summoner were added.  This game is just a mess, IMO.  Progression doesn't make sense, loot/iLvls doesn't make sense, leveling doesn't make sense, there's relatively little content.

I was hyped about DD2, but highly disappointed after playing it.  I had about 750 hours into DD1 before they completely destroyed current classes to make room for more classes.  (yay, profit margins)


To elaborate a bit on my points, progression and loot is basically the same problem.  Ilvl drop margins just make no sense, there's no overlap, the gap is massive while the content isn't as drastically as difficult.  You can go straight from farming normal to 50 and jump right into NM1 or 2.  At that point, you get ilvl equipment that are massive upgrades, every single piece.  Even the most common drops are drastically better than the rarest drops from where you were.  You will never see one single drop that is even near the power of your current gear.

That makes no sense.  You should be struggling in insane, coming straight out of "normal" and you should be finding minor upgrades that help push you through the content.

Then we move onto content.  You can't level in hard, which makes no sense.  There's zero reason to do insane.  You can push through each level of nightmare in a day or two of moderate farming.  After that, where are you?  Nowhere.  What about unlimited survival with progressive ilvl/mlvl?  That's even the most basic concept of end game for this genre and it's not there?  Instead we have a couple of game modes that are terribly underwhelming.  One that is just a few more mobs, one that is extremely slow to get going.

It's like... a complete lack of logic from a development standpoint.  I don't really understand what their grand scheme was with this game.  Maybe it's 20% done, maybe it's 75%.  I'm hoping the former, personally.  I know it's an alpha, but I'm still baffled.

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When there was an IPWR restriction to maps you couldn't just jump ahead, so originally it kind of worked. Removing that restriction was Trendy's biggest mistake with the game it opened the floodgates to leechers and trivialized end game.

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@Fozzie quote:

When there was an IPWR restriction to maps you couldn't just jump ahead, so originally it kind of worked. Removing that restriction was Trendy's biggest mistake with the game it opened the floodgates to leechers and trivialized end game.

In all fairness everyone was screaming to remove it, because it was broke. Technically it is still broke, they have said IPWR doesn't represent the actual item power, it is the item range it spawns in. I thought it needed to be fixed so it worked the way they intended it too. It was easier to remove the check then to fix how IPWR is actually used on items.

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Trouble is they should have fixed it not just removed it. Like so many good things that could have been fixed but got nerfed to oblivion instead.

A long long list of opportunities to keep the game fun and challenging for all, with targets to get to, like unlocking NMx as you finally got the power to do so.

Instead of balance to boost , LSA, geyser/lightning combo, reverse Frosties, Idle Flow etc etc etc they got nuked or nerfed to death. When I used to always instantly get a game NM1-4, all you see now is NM4 Inc on Gates, Harbinger runs or onslaught for pet affection runs.

Numbers down, loot down and still mostly garbage the game is just losing its fun value.

Log on, do daily log off and hope for something in 2016

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@Fozzie quote:

Log on, do daily log off and hope for something in 2016

I salute your steadfastness. Even my dailies have gone now. I rush the monthly and not much else. 

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@yummysinsemilla quote:

...relatively little content.

...I know it's an alpha, but I'm still baffled.

you should open googel and search for the tag "what is early access alpha?"

there will be changes as the community say this is bad and this is good, everything is changeable and we all have to arrange with the fact that its still under progress

guess you see the game, looking some smarter than dd1 and then you think "well thats not even half as good", but you cant really compare these two games, because one of them is not even about to be finished beta

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@0564 quote:

@yummysinsemilla quote:

...relatively little content.

...I know it's an alpha, but I'm still baffled.

you should open googel and search for the tag "what is early access alpha?"

there will be changes as the community say this is bad and this is good, everything is changeable and we all have to arrange with the fact that its still under progress

guess you see the game, looking some smarter than dd1 and then you think "well thats not even half as good", but you cant really compare these two games, because one of them is not even about to be finished beta

Really, man?

It's been in production for more than two years, likely three+.  There are two game modes that are absolutely underwhelming and nothing even close to resembling an end-game type of game mode, which will make up about 99% of the playtime in a game of this genre.

All the other things I listed in my post are very questionable decisions that were made and then implemented, meaning this is how they expected it to be.  It's all wrong, IMO and I stated that.


Do you really think I don't understand the concept of an early access beta?  That doesn't mean that the development of this game up until this point cannot be criticized simply for the fact that it can be changed.  The decisions made until this point make me question whether or not the development team at Trendy has a clue, which is surprising (hence why I said baffled) seeing as DD1 up until Barbarian/Summoner was such an amazing game.

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To me it seems like development up to June was more about the mechanics and balancing. That's when I got excited for patches. Might have been due to influence week and the thought that hero deck changes were sure to be top priority after the vote. Then after the great wipe of '15 the focus of game direction  shifted. It was all about the passive builds, even if the base tower was still broke. 

The thing about F2P games, you usually end up saying "wow I can't believe this game is free" or "well at least this game is free". For me it's the later even though I bought into pre alpha. 

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Honestly i left for a while because i felt my self becoming somewhat toxic with the incompetence. Im sure the people and trendy are working hard and deserve a break. I just feel like there is a disconnect somewhere. The priorities are completely wrong. 


There is a massive list of low hanging fruit that a capable programmer could fix in minutes that is just not being done.


Examples:

Heavy cannonball uber. All they have to do is increase the splash radius and leave the dmg and speed the same as regular cannon ball instead of the super nerfed version it is now. This requires the changing of 3 values in the code. (should take 5 mins)


LSA uber. Same as cannon ball. Its unbalanced, just buff it a little. Tweak some #s. My personal recommendation is to leave the damage the same but increase the attack speed.


Those are just easy to fix things that i would just feel embarrassed about as a programmer. How does a programmer go to work and start programming some harbinger fight when all he has to do is spend 10 mins fixing 2 uber sphere towers lol. 

People keep saying this is alpha and we should be patient etc. Yet trendy is asking for the same $ as a full released or beta released game and keeps overnerfing things because they are afraid people will progress to fast. If this is alpha then fix the damn balance in hotfixes not sit around and make huge patches with no feedback for months. Tweaking easy  #s should be a constant hotfix thing to bring balance ASAP.


A few more things that could balance the game that require a bit more work.


NERF/BUFF frosty: frosty is the single most gamebreaking passive. Its the #1 reason why everything is unbalanced. Either make it work for all towers(at varying %s to keep them all balanced). Or get rid of it. 


NERF hearty: Heartyblockade is second only to frosty. Because of hearty everything feels like it has no health. HEROS die in 1 shot TOWERS die in 1 shot. Everything that isn't a hearty blockade dies instantly.

I recommend changing hearty completely into something else. Maybe a self repair like automation but actually useful. Or some kind of pushback or teleport like the dummys. Either way scaling the health of only 1 wall with a passive makes everything else in the game low health and forces you to unbalance the game by increasing the damage on the enemys. Take the passive health boost off the harbinger dummy/wall weapons and apply it to all walls/dummys as a normal stat. Then greatly reduce enemy damage especially in solo play since solo players cannot repair 10 walls at the same time. 


There i did your job for you Trendy. Your welcome. No payment necessary. If you need help with the actual coding feel free to send me an email i can have those easier numbers tweaked for you in a day.


PS: I also do not blame the individual programmers. I'm sure they would have fixed it by now. This is a Direction problem from higher up.

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Just a little devils advocate here. What if the developers don't have complete say in the road map and are bring redirected by the publishing finance section. 

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I have not read too much in this thread. But we all do realize the latest patch was about balancing the game for NEW players? Making sure we get new team mates to play with? Yes? 

I have no qualm with Trendy fixing early game before end game. If new players dont stick, where will the game go?

Nowhere. 

Players at end game, myself included. Will slowly quit no matter what Trendy does. Even if in a perfect world they did everything in their power and pleased every end game player. We would still quit. Because games get boring to most normal people after XX/XXX hours. 

What we need is a solid game from 1 to 50. To keep new players joining. That should be Trendy's main priority and they have taken a big step with the newest patch. 

sure you and me as a end game player do not really give a *** that the campaign and early levels have been rebalanced. But we should.

I tried to introduce a friend to the game right after the game went F2P. And boy he was SO EXCITED THAT THE WHOLE CAMPAIGN WAS  FACEROLL.... No , he was not. He stopped playing after four maps. 

We need new players, all the time. We need them to  come, stay and spend money. 

Or else we will have ZERO updates. Trendy needs to pay rent, they need to eat. And they need to keep their families alive. 

It's pretty selfish of us end game players to whine about end game before the early game is in a solid state.

It's early access for a  reason. I have said before, a game selling things in a cash shop should be considered as a released game.

I still stand by that. But at least, they should fix the early game first so we actually will grow as a community. Instead of dwindling away.


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@Chappyy quote:

Just a little devils advocate here. What if the developers don't have complete say in the road map and are bring redirected by the publishing finance section. 

Well I hope the developers are not taking the decisions even tho it feels like that with DD2 at times. For sure DD2 needs an strategy with a clear vision from at least one person who can see what the game should be. This person would test the code and verify its according to plan. This is the part I believe is missing. 

The art work and sound is really amazing and keeping the game floating and the coders... well its hard to judge but they sure can produce a working game. So all that is left to "blame" is the product manager (or something similar for game studios) not really succeeding in creating a good environment to produce code that actually has value. For sure it must be frustrating for the coders.

I hope in 2016 there will be new members into the ranks of Trendy, someone who can see DD2 for what it can be.

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Of course the early game and new players are important. But if your a new player, and you check out the forums or you hang out in the tavern and all you hear is people talking about how bad the end game is your going to quit anyways. People play to have fun, and they play with a goal in mind. A broken endgame means the goal is gone.

My goal for this game is not even in the game anymore my goal is for trendy to fix the game so i can go back to playing and enjoying it (which has been going the opposite direction). And a easy start to doing that is what i pointed out above. Fix the easy fast stuff. 

I would like to see a weeks worth of work put into small but high impact things such as the examples I've mentioned. The QOL results would be amazing.

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@Pegazul quote:

Of course the early game and new players are important. But if your a new player, and you check out the forums or you hang out in the tavern and all you hear is people talking about how bad the end game is your going to quit anyways. People play to have fun, and they play with a goal in mind. A broken endgame means the goal is gone.

My goal for this game is not even in the game anymore my goal is for trendy to fix the game so i can go back to playing and enjoying it (which has been going the opposite direction). And a easy start to doing that is what i pointed out above. Fix the easy fast stuff. 

I would like to see a weeks worth of work put into small but high impact things such as the examples I've mentioned. The QOL results would be amazing.

I honestly think the best way to get stuff accomplished would be to composite a megalist of end game issues and solutions into one big ol post rather than scatterbraining it into fragments in here and tons of threads like it.  I've been considering doing such and posting it into general to get feedback and edit things in as it progresses so that it's all on the OP to be easily viewed and discussed.  Believe it or not, I agree with a good 90% of the things you say even if I am an argumentative turd sometimes.  You're one of the few players here that actually takes the time to express his views with examples and reasons instead of just crying about it and making demands... so don't be shocked if the list of suggestions includes a lot of things you have said.

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@roboticaust quote:


@Pegazul quote:

Of course the early game and new players are important. But if your a new player, and you check out the forums or you hang out in the tavern and all you hear is people talking about how bad the end game is your going to quit anyways. People play to have fun, and they play with a goal in mind. A broken endgame means the goal is gone.

My goal for this game is not even in the game anymore my goal is for trendy to fix the game so i can go back to playing and enjoying it (which has been going the opposite direction). And a easy start to doing that is what i pointed out above. Fix the easy fast stuff. 

I would like to see a weeks worth of work put into small but high impact things such as the examples I've mentioned. The QOL results would be amazing.

I honestly think the best way to get stuff accomplished would be to composite a megalist of end game issues and solutions into one big ol post rather than scatterbraining it into fragments in here and tons of threads like it.  I've been considering doing such and posting it into general to get feedback and edit things in as it progresses so that it's all on the OP to be easily viewed and discussed.  Believe it or not, I agree with a good 90% of the things you say even if I am an argumentative turd sometimes.  You're one of the few players here that actually takes the time to express his views with examples and reasons instead of just crying about it and making demands... so don't be shocked if the list of suggestions includes a lot of things you have said.

Preface: I've long since passed the point where I can justifying call this a game anymore, so I simply refer to it as an alpha. If TE wants me to call it game, get it out of alpha testing. I'll call it a game when it's a finished, semi-polished product I can feel comfortable paying money for, though I'll consider maybe calling it a game if it ever gets to beta.

Anyway, it seems compiling a list of complaints against this alpha would be a monumental task, but it would probably go a long way toward consolidating and focusing the discussions. There isn't really a guiding force, so to speak, for the arguments, so sometimes I wonder how much simply gets lost on the way to the development team. I've been on several discussion boards where the studio staff either doesn't respond (Halo 4's 343 Industries) or only gave vague hints that they're even listening (World of Tanks' War Gaming). I've heard the cop-out answer, "Oh, they're/we're too busy, but trust us, they're/we're listening!" before, when Halo fans defended 343i and when a PR liaison spoke for WG, respectively. Still, I've never bought it. Why should I believe that you're listening when your updates don't reflect or mention the complaints, or if you can't even make time to engage with your fans?
This board is marginally closer to WG than 343i, in that an actual team member will respond, but they'll usually give the same, "We know and we're working on it" or "Here's a link that will let you talk to the development team (maybe)." Maybe they give more details in the livestream, but I've been disillusioned to the point of disinterest, where I simply don't care about most of the peripherals and only directly involve myself with patches and such that directly affect me.

Basically, gathering all the comments together to form a single, unified discussion might help, but until we get real, direct input from the powers-that-be, beyond being brushed off with a "we're aware and working on it," I think this alpha has a long way before becoming anything close to resembling a game.

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Well if we are being fair here, a developer has ZERO say when they have a publisher in the case of 343 Industries.  This however is an indie dev releasing on their own.  They don't have to play by the publishers BS when it comes to development.  However, there are still several practices in the industry that are generally followed and breaking is frowned upon such as undoing paid for work such as removing the heroes deck would be.

Basically a publisher is a company paying for a specific product.  They control the cash flow and make all design decisions.  It's why series of games such as cod or the ea sports 2k series feel like rehashes.  The publisher pays money to keep shovelling out what already sells instead of breaking the mold or trying something new.  Hell, it's a big reason everything still uses shaders from '98 and dx9c.  Why bother paying for something better or breaking the standards in place?  Video game politics for the uneducated.

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