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playlessNamer

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This game has some similarities with Diablo3.


1-its about finding better gear, the lategame is improving your farm and gear to max

2-its a grinder

3-itemclass system feels same style

4-there is not much space next to the actual metagame, its all about efectiveness. Funbuilds are fun but to find better gear efficient is mainfun and motivation.

5-you play the story and the lower difficultys once in your complete game time. The rest is pulling chars to max level. When you have to manual level another char to max level its just a pain because the game starts when you hit max level.

6-comparsion hero hp and hero dmg is a joke. Heros have 2.000-20.000 HP and dealing 250.000 dmg and more. Why you disqualify yourself in early alphastages to never be able to pvp the game? You experienced the epic Blizzard fail? I see it like it was yesterday. The dev on the stage on Blizzcon, WE ARE PROUDLY PRESENTIIIIIING DIABLO 3 PvPPPPPPPPPEEEEEEEE and the crowd growls YEEEAHHHH,.... now watch that joke. Jay Wilson has lost his job for this desaster. Why trendy are you castrate your game in so early stages to be never able to playable in pvp? The max damage a hero can deal should never be higher than 50% of the average max HP of a low geared hero. Is this so hard?

7-The effects. It was getting worse and worse with every patch in D3. I cant see anything. I am just standing inside a supernova of effects, particles, exlosions and numbers. Sometimes i see my hero for 1 second when i use the jump before i get lost in the sea of graphic again. This makes every gameplay, timing, aiming, friend enemy detection, reacting to things, avoiding attacks and much more complete nonsense, its just about spamming, spamming, spamming and hope for the best. DD2 has allready the same mechanic in his early stages. I shoot into a supernova, knowing there are enemys because there are numbers, unable to see any projectile, unable to distinguish any enemys, impossible to focus them and sometimes there comes some exploders out of the nova,... less is more in this context!

8-the numbers himself. Not just the amounts are way to different like the hero HP in comparsion to Hero DMG. The numbers itself are allready overpowered. When this game would be 5 years old and had some big content patches in his history its normal to have some powertier because new content usually needs to be slightly better or op and so the numbers stack and stack higher and higher. Why are we allready at 200.000-300.000 Damage range in so early stages? Whats the problem with dealing 50 dmg? You start with 1-5 dmg, hard and insane is about 30-50 dmg, nightmare stages going 100 dmg and more and maybe you see anytime soon a char who deals 1000 dmg, wtf THOUSAND DMG!, thats epic! Why the fckn hell we have allready broke any border to "normal" numbers??? Why does my phönix deal 127.563 dmg??? Why not 127 dmg? Whats wrong? Is this the new age target audience who needs this insane amount of numbers to get a boner? Pls fix this in this early stage of the game before you end up like Diablo3 adding now finally a "M" behind the insane dmg numbers. For the love, pls stop this numbers before your game crashes due to "to high integer error"... pleeease!

9-pls make the game wider not higher. Blizzard make Diablo3 higher and higher. Nightmare 5, 6, 7, 8, super nightmare, double hell nightmare. Bosses with 75.000.000.000 HP and weapons with 300.000x5000x1.2x5x20 damage. They dont balance the old gear, they just add new ones! They stack D3 higher and higher till the tower breaks. Pls make DD2 wider at the bottom. Balance is not just a balanced progress and having enemys on every level. Balance is that everything is usefull at nearly every stage of the game. Every spell, every gear, every way to play the game has its unique purpose and sense. THATS BALANCE! Not just the comparsion between herodmg and enemyhitpoints. The freedom for the players to decide theirself what they want to play is balance and having several possibilitys to reach even different worthy goals. Thats real balance! Thats the championsleague of balance, not the blizzard crap.

10-pls go slow on changes. Many spells just needs a slight adjustment. Blizzard devs sitting with a sledgehammer infront of their keyboard! We doubled it! We nerfed it to useless! We removed it! Spell is to weak? DOUBLE IT!!! I hope you have some feeling for this. Just play Diablo3 to learn how it goes wrong!


so far, thx.

gl, hf all

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I completely agree with OP


I wish they would have used D2 to look at instead of D3. If D3 was good everyone would be playing it lol. Funny enough i keep an eye on D3 forums to see where the game is headed and they keep making it worse because they don't want to fix the fundamentals. 

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@Pegazul quote:Funny enough i keep an eye on D3 forums to see where the game is headed and they keep making it worse because they don't want to fix the fundamentals. 

Checking that forum from time to time too, just for fun. Its really sad. The biggest mistakes have been done in the very first stages of the game. They added some nice stuff since there and trying hard to make it playable again but it seems they cant or wont rework old stuff.

I remember the time i started playing D3. A yellow 800dps weapon costs about 250€. Meanwhile they reached thousands of billions in damage. Thats a train you cant stop once you accelerated it. Thats a part of what i mean with go wider not higher.

Actually we are in alphastage in DD2 and i smell some same mistakes in the basics. When DD2 goes NM5,6,7,8... i am out. Gimme some new modi, some hero line wars, some szenario maps, any new modes and new challenges what need special loot, some action maps with events while the round, dunno, anything like that.

As example: App is not useless just because Huntress makes way more dmg than him because App deals magicdmg. There couldt be more specific unique usefull things what encounter you all the time in the game and makes different builds usefull in different situations. Mix up more things you face ingame. Make something nice instead of starting that unstoppable train of powertier.

This is the alpha. Reduce the numbers now! Just delete everyting behind the comma and divide the rest by 2. Set a maximum you wont break and balance many builds up to this possible max dps. When the community finds some combos dealing op damage then patch it back to the max dps rang area you set before. There have always to be a minimum of 3-4 different ways per class to reach that hidden max dps limitrange.

Even when there will be never any kind of PvP and never ever will a hero shoot on another hero, balance herodmg anyway. Its just ugly to have 2000 hp and deal 250000 dmg, no matter if there is pvp.

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This is a great post! I'll move this over to the Suggestion section and flag it for someone in Designland to take a look. There are a lot of great insights here. 

Thanks for the feedback!

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Diablo 3 is actually a bunch more horizontal than this game is currently, there is more builds and it's quicker to be able to experiment, they only added the higher difficulties because they buffed the legendary items across the board, which where more effective, people could complete the toughest things with ease and the only challenge was in greater rift 40-50,


 There isn't a linear progression after level cap like there is in this game, after you get cap you then make your build, and then to refine the build is the next step, which this game completely misses. The reward in diablo 3 for playing makes your time feel valued, sure you can find the anctient weapons, but they exist on the lowest torment difficulty, this game the lowest nightmare difficulty doesn't drop good items, Its only a means for more progression. 


Saying diablo 3 is a linear progression fest is a outright lie. The whole reason why there is now torment 10 is because of the retroactive buffs, and new legendary sets became too effective for the balance they first started with. In these loot based games you want to feel powerful, you want to reserve the main difficulty on leader boards, and the endless mode, that is the place for the min-max should strive for, but limiting the experimentation till the end of the game, when you are at NM4 or trying to beat it regularly, takes hundreds of hours, in diablo 3 it can take as little as 30-40 hours to begin to regularly do torment 10... The people that want to min max that's what the greater rift is for, that is what the seasons are for.


The other thing diablo 3 has that this game doesn't have is the willingness of the high geared people to play with others, Because one bad player will not ruin the game. The nessessity of having a certain build, and class, (squire waller) is like having the ZDPS witch doctor a mandatory thing to complete torment three, and a highly geared one that spent 300-500 hours grinding. 


People think of what diablo 3 started with, which is what this game is now, a game that is all about linear progression. In a perfect geared character in diablo 3, most of the high rifts require more skill than gear, game knowledge and how to get farther and become better as a player, This skill display starts when you have completed your gear set, which can drop on all difficulties, and just has higher chances to drop on higher difficulties. Lets say you get a zunimassa on Torment 1, great, you might not need to get it ever again, it could even be ancient, congrats you might not ever have to replace that piece the entire season. Once you have collected all pieces you are able to do torment 10, and now poised to do greater rifts, and you can get all peices on any difficutly as long as you are having fun you will get them. Increasing difficulty, doesn't mean you get better gear after you get to level cap.

This game, makes sure that your squire is only that one build.  

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OP makes me want to ram my head into a brick wall. There isnt even a viable reason to compare 2 games that are completely different in every shape way and form. Youve obviously never touched DD1. Everything that you mention as a bad thing in this game and Diablo is what made DD1 amazing. You'd have so many particles and animations going off you couldnt see anything if you were in the middle of your builds and it was awe inspiring if you were able to reach that level of power on your gear because at anytime you could look at where you started from and where you got to. DD2's animation effects are nothing compared to what DD1's were.

Numbers? This is the dumbest thing ive ever seen anyone complain about. Who actually cares if youre doing 1000000000000000 damage per hit and a boss has 99999999999999999999999999999 hp or doing 10 damage and a boss has 9999 hp. It doesnt matter how many numbers there are, it matters how long it takes to reach 0. it doesnt matter if you do 150 or 150mil dps if it still takes you 10 min to kill a boss.  If youre really that bothered by it then DD is not the game for you. DD1 was catered to the hardcore and thats what made it as amazing as it was. DD2 atm is extremely tame by DD1's standards and i hope it changes in the future because catering to the casual around mechanics made for the hardcore is not going to let it succeed. 

Also DD2 started out as a moba and got scrapped. Devs have said theres no current plans for any form of pvp (and there really shouldnt even be any pvp implemented in a game like this because it wouldnt make sense for this type of game.) 

Also im getting sick of people throwing around the word overpowered like they know what it means. Doing 150k dps doesnt make you overpowered if what youre trying to kill has 5-10mil hp. What would be overpowered is if you were doing 150k dps and a boss only has 100k hp or say if something doesnt make sense stat wise and is way more powerful compared to everything else. Thats when it becomes overpowered because youre killing a boss instantly or something has far superiority over everything else.

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@Arcflare quote:

OP makes me want to ram my head into a brick wall. There isnt even a viable reason to compare 2 games that are completely different in every shape way and form. Youve obviously never touched DD1. Everything that you mention as a bad thing in this game and Diablo is what made DD1 amazing. You'd have so many particles and animations going off you couldnt see anything if you were in the middle of your builds and it was awe inspiring if you were able to reach that level of power on your gear because at anytime you could look at where you started from and where you got to. DD2's animation effects are nothing compared to what DD1's were.

Numbers? This is the dumbest thing ive ever seen anyone complain about. Who actually cares if youre doing 1000000000000000 damage per hit and a boss has 99999999999999999999999999999 hp or doing 10 damage and a boss has 9999 hp. It doesnt matter how many numbers there are, it matters how long it takes to reach 0. it doesnt matter if you do 150 or 150mil dps if it still takes you 10 min to kill a boss.  If youre really that bothered by it then DD is not the game for you. DD1 was catered to the hardcore and thats what made it as amazing as it was. DD2 atm is extremely tame by DD1's standards and i hope it changes in the future because catering to the casual around mechanics made for the hardcore is not going to let it succeed. 

Also DD2 started out as a moba and got scrapped. Devs have said theres no current plans for any form of pvp (and there really shouldnt even be any pvp implemented in a game like this because it wouldnt make sense for this type of game.) 

Also im getting sick of people throwing around the word overpowered like they know what it means. Doing 150k dps doesnt make you overpowered if what youre trying to kill has 5-10mil hp. What would be overpowered is if you were doing 150k dps and a boss only has 100k hp or say if something doesnt make sense stat wise and is way more powerful compared to everything else. Thats when it becomes overpowered because youre killing a boss instantly or something has far superiority over everything else.

I do agree in a way, but the OP was talking about vanilla D3, and assumes what it means to have torment 10 now means that there is a gear treadmill like this game has, which D3 currently doesn't have. This game Has more time to get gear than the vast majority of games I have played in a long time, this patch on the 15th might change that, but aside from that, in Daiblo 3, if you are a min max player, and group player there is between 4-5 builds on each class With some flavor with in each. Squire has one build, that is mandatory. and the others are a bit more free. 

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@playlessNamer quote:

The max damage a hero can deal should never be higher than 50% of the average max HP of a low geared hero. 

typical non-game-designer thinking.  what difference does it make? you can always apply a global limiter to pvp damage

ALL DAMAGE IN PVP IS REDUCED BY 90%

if you think that's why diablo3 pvp failed then you really have zero grasp on game design

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@Gunghoe quote:

Diablo 3 is actually a bunch more horizontal than this game is currently, there is more builds and it's quicker to be able to experiment, they only added the higher difficulties because they buffed the legendary items across the board, which where more effective, people could complete the toughest things with ease and the only challenge was in greater rift 40-50,


Ye, actually D3 has more content than DD2, but you compare a Releasegameversion with addon and about 10 big balance and content patches from a global player like Activision_Blizzard with a alpha stage outsider game.

I spend some thousand hours in D3. I dont know what you want to defend there. Its always the same. There is no wide area of possibilitys. There are at max 2-3 possible ways per char to play effective. They NEVER rebalanced any old content because it gets everytime overwritten by new content anyway.

The gameplay has about zero diversity. Campaign, Adventure, rifts, grifts is all the same stuff with just different numbers, droprates and settings. (Thats like campaign, incursion, onlsaught, freemode, endgame...) They added some features wich force you to play all of that modi, i mentioned this above there are some good changes but they will just higher and higher the numbers and create more sets (meanwhile they hardcode the skills in the tooltip of the sets) wich force you to play the exactly mentioned way.

This feels exactly like in DD2 actually. I dont have a traptress and i dont have a mage at all. Thats my own fault i know. I readed about the meta early enough but i decided to not play it. So my max output is a joke compared to a medium geared traptress. Thats the same Diablo3 always was. It takes some weeks to define the actual meta and the gap is gigantic between this and the rest. Instead of fix this, they just create a new meta sometimes.


I never played DD1. The argument for some things to be the same like in DD1 and thats why its good is absolute valid! I dont know it but i care about the story of a game. I love it when the devs take care of their old community and not just go for the new target audience.

The comparsion with D3 is not so far away as you maybe think.


Why i dont like the graphical supernovas? Selfexplaining i think. It would be absolute worth to detect that causing effects like for example the frosttowers wich are very effectheavy and adjust them a bit down. When this was always part of DD1and part of the epicness, maybe but the technical possibilitys are way better today.

Whats wrong with numbers? Ye, whats the difference between a 10cm long number and small ones when they pop out in hordes and overlay each other? Some AoE spells call 50 numbers at once and more.

Reducing the dmg by 90% in PvP? More like 99,9%. When you do it right from the first versions of a game you dont have to fix it later. Who makes all the tooltips wich explains that dmg reduction? All this useless work wich will be just a try to rescue a fail instead of setting that ratio right from startup. Whats better?

The numbers are really not the only faial for D3 PvP but it was always about 1 or 2 shot each other or at least not comprehensible.

There are some very nice ways to play DD2 PvP like Hero-Line-Wars, Lane Wars and some other MP Towerdefense principes without a the hero has to fight each other directly.

Dont wanna figtht a fanboy war here. When you enjoy D3 its ok. Its at least a very good example how bad alpha stage decisions going hervy wrong and hurt the game even after 2 addons and dozens of patches.

Sit down with paper and lead pencil and make a concept, set some borders, one ore more goals. Dont just patch it up from 1k dmg in release to 1kkkkM dmg in future. I know this feels like progress for many ppl.


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@Arcflare quote:

In DD1, You'd have so many particles and animations going off you couldnt see anything if you were in the middle of your builds and it was awe inspiring if you were able to reach that level of power on your gear because at anytime you could look at where you started from and where you got to. 


I have no idea which DD1 you're referring to, but DD2's particle effects and visual clutter are way more severe than DD1. Auras could tint a section of the map, but that's about it. None of the app towers or squire towers had particle effects anywhere near the size of their DD2 counterparts. On top of that, the numbers in DD1 were much smaller and had black outlines for visibility's sake. Honestly you should go load up DD1 and place a few towers in the tavern, then go place the same towers in a DD2 tavern and record it. DD2 has a severe visual clutter problem.

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@playlessNamer quote:


@Gunghoe quote:

Diablo 3 is actually a bunch more horizontal than this game is currently, there is more builds and it's quicker to be able to experiment, they only added the higher difficulties because they buffed the legendary items across the board, which where more effective, people could complete the toughest things with ease and the only challenge was in greater rift 40-50,


Ye, actually D3 has more content than DD2, but you compare a Releasegameversion with addon and about 10 big balance and content patches from a global player like Activision_Blizzard with a alpha stage outsider game.

I spend some thousand hours in D3. I dont know what you want to defend there. Its always the same. There is no wide area of possibilitys. There are at max 2-3 possible ways per char to play effective. They NEVER rebalanced any old content because it gets everytime overwritten by new content anyway.

The gameplay has about zero diversity. Campaign, Adventure, rifts, grifts is all the same stuff with just different numbers, droprates and settings. (Thats like campaign, incursion, onlsaught, freemode, endgame...) They added some features wich force you to play all of that modi, i mentioned this above there are some good changes but they will just higher and higher the numbers and create more sets (meanwhile they hardcode the skills in the tooltip of the sets) wich force you to play the exactly mentioned way.

This feels exactly like in DD2 actually. I dont have a traptress and i dont have a mage at all. Thats my own fault i know. I readed about the meta early enough but i decided to not play it. So my max output is a joke compared to a medium geared traptress. Thats the same Diablo3 always was. It takes some weeks to define the actual meta and the gap is gigantic between this and the rest. Instead of fix this, they just create a new meta sometimes.


I never played DD1. The argument for some things to be the same like in DD1 and thats why its good is absolute valid! I dont know it but i care about the story of a game. I love it when the devs take care of their old community and not just go for the new target audience.

The comparsion with D3 is not so far away as you maybe think.


Why i dont like the graphical supernovas? Selfexplaining i think. It would be absolute worth to detect that causing effects like for example the frosttowers wich are very effectheavy and adjust them a bit down. When this was always part of DD1and part of the epicness, maybe but the technical possibilitys are way better today.

Whats wrong with numbers? Ye, whats the difference between a 10cm long number and small ones when they pop out in hordes and overlay each other? Some AoE spells call 50 numbers at once and more.

Reducing the dmg by 90% in PvP? More like 99,9%. When you do it right from the first versions of a game you dont have to fix it later. Who makes all the tooltips wich explains that dmg reduction? All this useless work wich will be just a try to rescue a fail instead of setting that ratio right from startup. Whats better?

The numbers are really not the only faial for D3 PvP but it was always about 1 or 2 shot each other or at least not comprehensible.

There are some very nice ways to play DD2 PvP like Hero-Line-Wars, Lane Wars and some other MP Towerdefense principes without a the hero has to fight each other directly.

Dont wanna figtht a fanboy war here. When you enjoy D3 its ok. Its at least a very good example how bad alpha stage decisions going hervy wrong and hurt the game even after 2 addons and dozens of patches.

Sit down with paper and lead pencil and make a concept, set some borders, one ore more goals. Dont just patch it up from 1k dmg in release to 1kkkkM dmg in future. I know this feels like progress for many ppl.



Lets take a look at each class,

Lets start with squire, as he is required in this game to be able to do anything meaningful in higher mob levels. WHich is insane, in diablo or any game with diablo loot, you don't have a required class. Sure there is other builds for squire, but if you can't complete a single map with out a waller at high difficuties that is a problem, Oily harpoon doesn't scale well for what you are trying to achieve with it. This game is a co-op game, but making "walls" this important to balance for difficulty is rediculus, it makes the other things you can put in the way pointless like the training dummy, and the apps walls, and the slows are neglegable, so are the stuns, so there is no replacement, nor any other option for the squire, you have to level a squire to complete anything solo, and if you want to reliably get a public game and win it, you have to have a squire, that has the waller build. 


The App, has something that can CC, but it's not nearly strong enough, it could be a valid replacement for a squires wall, but for some reason so far they are afraid that this PvE game, has to be fair to the mobs, and let them create damage on the towers, which makes the walls so much more important,  And the slowing effect isn't good enough. So there is a way to let another class become the star of the game, and make sure if one person doesn't have the defense, they can however go with CC, which right now is not happening. Which would be cool if the freeze beems worked 100% of the time after the end of the channel the mob and 4 surrounding freeze for a bit, and the big enemies freeze for longer.


The monk, the slows are meaningless, they don't slow enough, the auras do decent damage, and when purge evil procs it's cool, however I think that this class can also cause more stuns to assist as a replacement for the walls, there could be a massive slow, to aid the play-style of being able to wear out enemies till they get to their objective. instead of a 8 ish percent slow up to 10 or what ever it is, on each piece of gear, 40-50% slows aren't enough, because of this walls are too important, which cater to one build way, mines or turrets or the combination of the two.  So every game feels similar put a wall at a choke and make sure there is damage that is able to be landed through various means. Putting up barricades should be an option. He can slow more, so his auras are more effective.


The huntress, has traps, and a poison dart tower, the traps don't aid in anyway to being able to complete anything, they are optional, which is good, but there isn't a way I can think of to replace the barricade strategy so every time you play feels the same. sure this game doesn't have procedural generation. it does however have unique enemies that all die the same way, with the ogre and dark mage being the worst. How can she assist? Make the stuns given off by the combination of towers more effective, electrocute should last longer, and increase damage done while effected. The person on fire that is then chilled is stunned. varying game-play is really important, having the same basic rule of thumb on each map gets boring to me poison could go good with all towers, any towers that hit them make them slower stacking up to 10 times til they are going 20% speed, making walls less important, but still a valid strategy. 


Make ways to replace the Waller build, don't make the need for Waller this important, it makes every game feel the same. 


Having to stand by towers and repair is also while effective, though the week walls for instance, if you heal them up full, then you walk away, trying to actually be part of combat as a melee character isn't effective you sure can take aggro off of them as squire for a little while, but if you wonder away to fight and be part of the game with your hero, you are likely at a major disadvantage because the damage scales considerably, repairing isn't a challenge its a chore because you can't partisapate, to combat this you can make an uber that makes the serenity heal towers (for a moderate cost, in mana and defence units) so the melee characters don't have to consistently be on top of repairs if they chose that option as a way of defense lets say make it 70-80DU/mana which makes them costly, but balanced for an option.


Right now the game just feels static, multiple offence options, but very few defensive options, that's the way this game is imbalanced. I don't like joining games that have the same builds or similar builds every game, it's a given, and the magic resist lane and phys resist lanes spice things up. But they still require a baracade, the only and best option for CC.



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We really have to stop to textwall.


You talk about the actual balance wich is for sure pretty bad in DD2 for its state but not really better for D3 when you compare DD2 is alpha and D3 is a long supported released game. There is massive work to do in DD2, but thats another topic.

Its about the similaritys the games have and some of them are proofed bad for the game like we can see in D3. This points in opening post are examples for things wich are not good for the game and they should be fixed while alpha stage.

All i want to say is "Learn from the mistakes of other games" and dont repeat them. When it starts once to stack it higher and higher everyone knows where the game will end (or never end), in always the same mechanics with just higher numbers and higher loot and higher everything but it will feel the same like playing normal campaign with ipwr 50 items.

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@playlessNamer quote:

We really have to stop to textwall.


You talk about the actual balance wich is for sure pretty bad in DD2 for its state but not really better for D3 when you compare DD2 is alpha and D3 is a long supported released game. There is massive work to do in DD2, but thats another topic.

Its about the similaritys the games have and some of them are proofed bad for the game like we can see in D3. This points in opening post are examples for things wich are not good for the game and they should be fixed while alpha stage.

All i want to say is "Learn from the mistakes of other games" and dont repeat them. When it starts once to stack it higher and higher everyone knows where the game will end (or never end), in always the same mechanics with just higher numbers and higher loot and higher everything but it will feel the same like playing normal campaign with ipwr 50 items.

right, saying there is a problem, and not suggesting ways to fix the problem doesn't do anything, it requires structured paragraphs. Which will become multiple paragraphs... You cant just say waller is bad that it's a requirement for the way the game is currently ballanced, it requires more than just that, if some one where to just say that, then nothing else, yes there will be no wall of text, but there would also be nothing to go for being constructive. And would have little backing.


For the record I spent about 800-900 hours in diablo 3, since launch. It did something right. Instead of saying don't do the things that other games have done wrong. Which is a given. Lets talk about things other games have done right, what this game can learn from, for example, No class in a game with diablo based loot should be a requirement to complete content.

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