Jump to content

Your thoughts on melee combat?


Recommended Posts


@I_PASS_BUTTER quote:

I posted about this in another thread, but there is an ongoing conversation happening internally about Hero DPS viability, and bringing some freshness to the meta. I wouldn't expect any major changes, but expect to see some balance passes sometime in the future. 

Thank you for the feedback, Defenders. 

Would you classify removing melee characters' lunge as a major change?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 50
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Please let us turn off melee lunge. It prevents me from attacking the enemy I want to attack (buried whitherbeasts) and instead runs off after goblins even when I'm facing the other way! Super annoying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Aheadatime quote:


@I_PASS_BUTTER quote:

I posted about this in another thread, but there is an ongoing conversation happening internally about Hero DPS viability, and bringing some freshness to the meta. I wouldn't expect any major changes, but expect to see some balance passes sometime in the future. 

Thank you for the feedback, Defenders. 

Would you classify removing melee characters' lunge as a major change?

I definitely think it would require time to implement properly. I'll kick this over to our Production team, and they'll make the decision on it. I'm pushing hard for this feature myself. I want a "Thou-Shalt-Not-Pass" Squire, immobile, dealing crazy DPS with every swing of his sword. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@I_PASS_BUTTER quote:

I definitely think it would require time to implement properly. I'll kick this over to our Production team, and they'll make the decision on it. I'm pushing hard for this feature myself. I want a "Thou-Shalt-Not-Pass" Squire, immobile, dealing crazy DPS with every swing of his sword. :)

I would like to play with you if you ever hit nm4, could show you such a squire =). The spooky squire weapon you guys did a great job on it.

In my opinion currently out of all 4 heroes the squire is the strongest by far. His damage is not bad he amplifies also the damage around him majorly for the whole defense and with pet skill even more for everyone and everything. He can slow and stop the whole enemy horde himself and take on 3-4 lanes if they combine with easy. Even multiple bosses are rarely a problem. Thanks to the taunt he also can deal with air though it needs abit of skill to pull it of correctly. Sure his damage will never be as crazy as a full dps monk or huntress, but he does way more damage overall through his boost for the other party members or the defense. Way more and i mean with that millions more then any dps char can pull off.

Probably alot don't agree with me again on that but that is how i see the squire and use him.

I am also someone who suprisingly do like the walk forward and the autoaim with it. If possible it would be nice if that becomes an option you could deactivated if you don't like it. I use it for turning around and checking the suroundings and walls without loosing the focus on my target, also pushing the enemies to certain spots, to horde them or on traps. It's nice and easy with 1 left click.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@I_PASS_BUTTER quote:


@Aheadatime quote:


@I_PASS_BUTTER quote:

I posted about this in another thread, but there is an ongoing conversation happening internally about Hero DPS viability, and bringing some freshness to the meta. I wouldn't expect any major changes, but expect to see some balance passes sometime in the future. 

Thank you for the feedback, Defenders. 

Would you classify removing melee characters' lunge as a major change?

I definitely think it would require time to implement properly. I'll kick this over to our Production team, and they'll make the decision on it. I'm pushing hard for this feature myself. I want a "Thou-Shalt-Not-Pass" Squire, immobile, dealing crazy DPS with every swing of his sword. :)

Thanks so much, Butter. This particular change means alot to me and my three DD buddies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To clarify, don't remove it, just make it an option that we can turn on or off as we prefer. Also it should apply to the monk as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Ubara-tutu quote:

To clarify, don't remove it, just make it an option that we can turn on or off as we prefer. Also it should apply to the monk as well.

Yeah I think the best possible situation is to have the option to turn it on/off, but I'm not sure how difficult/tedious that would be to code as opposed to just having one melee mechanic across the board. Maybe it wouldn't be so hard, since they already have all the coding for the lunge mechanic. Time will tell I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello everyone. Have been reading this forum for sometime now. I wanted to sign up to chime in on this subject. I played DD1 a whole lot, its one of my favorite games, oh how i miss my Barb. Anyway can we expect a official word sometime soon regarding the awkward melee movement. Will we ever be able to stand still like DD1 and swing away?

This is a pretty big issue for me as i love melee but cannot enjoy it in it's current state. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The pushing back of enemies works/looks decent with the step forward mechanic, since there is code that checks if player is attacking and if true push enemy back if moveable. If the push back was dictated by actual user input it may seem/feel a bit weird.

Perhaps move the knock back to the weapon, just how ogres and orcs attack swings works on players. Can probably make it a knock back % stat.

.......in the end it sounds exactly how dd1 implemented it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Ubara-tutu quote:

To clarify, don't remove it, just make it an option that we can turn on or off as we prefer. Also it should apply to the monk as well.

I've passed this on to our Design/Production team. No promises, though!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I 100% agree, not being able to stand still during mele is kind of silly.  I want to be completely in control of where I am and when I'm moving.  If I want to run forward and attack I'll move forward while I'm attacking, having that happen automatically just takes some control of my character away from me and is unsatisfying 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Diablo 3 has actually made a lot progress on the Ranged vs Melee issue and I think the lessons learned there can be applied here.  Here's the chronology.

1) Vanilla Diablo 3 attempted to manage this issue with the flat damage reduction for melee characters.  This didn't really solve any ranged vs melee issues, because ranged took zero damage, not 30% more. 

Healing stats were extremely rare.  Life-on-hit was extremely valuable, but only existed on weapons (and maybe jewelry or legendary jewelry).  Life per second was very underpowered.  As a result, all characters maximized toughness and consumed potions as their primary source of regeneration (See Kripparian's world first inferno diablo kill as an example).

2) At the release of RoS, Blizzard added life on hit to many armor slots and life per second to almost all armor slots.  A great step forward to increase healing, but even that was not enough. 

3) Sometime around S1 or S2, they enormously buffed all healing stats, so that healing was much more valuable.  At this point, I personally noticed the difference.  My best character's healing stat was about 25% of my toughness, meaning I regenerated 25% of my eHP per second.

The big takeaway lesson here is that melee characters need to have access to all of the following: large enough eHP pools to absorb several attacks before dying,  significant amounts of passive regeneration such that they are not forced out of combat by normal monsters (bosses are exceptions), and both of those requirements need to be met without forcing a sacrifice of offensive power.  It has taken blizzard 3.5 years since the release of Vanilla D3 to finally reach this state, but finally within the last couple seasons Blizzard has created a thriving environment for melee characters.

How I would apply all this to DD: currently in NM4, I think monster damage outstrips all character class survivability.   To give one example, an exploding kobold does 20k+ damage.  That is more hp than my squire has, while stacking hero hp on every piece.  However, I think NM4 damage is artificially inflated on purpose, so maybe it won't be this bad post-alpha.  If it remains in this state, melee characters will need significantly higher hp scaling and serenity auras will need a VERY significant increase (double or triple the effect).

As an aside, the Path of Exile survival system is insanely different from D3 or DD2.  Their goals for said system (and overall ARPG experience) are equally as different.  Their playerbase constantly complains about it on the forums, but there is almost an equal push to keep it as is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you have stripped your gear of phys and mag def XD?

Even if you don't fight on top of a serenity, which then would give you nearly a 3-5k heal per second or more, you should be able to survive. Serenity also decreases the damage you take drasticaly too. If you still die with a lvl 1 serenity upgrade it to lvl 2 or 3 for more tankiness, at that point nothing should be able to kill you anymore. Special when trendy finaly fixes the bug on serenity heal speed passiv.

You could also include the shield sphere for more damage reduction when the enemies attack or bombers explode, you also could use the taunt to further reduce the damage. If you combine these you can tank the bombers for 1k-2k damage. And kill an ogre in a few seconds with the current pet skills and boost in the meanwhile.


@Deathlok quote:

....

How I would apply all this to DD: currently in NM4, I think monster damage outstrips all character class survivability.   To give one example, an exploding kobold does 20k+ damage.  That is more hp than my squire has, while stacking hero hp on every piece.  However, I think NM4 damage is artificially inflated on purpose, so maybe it won't be this bad post-alpha.  If it remains in this state, melee characters will need significantly higher hp scaling and serenity auras will need a VERY significant increase (double or triple the effect)....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What your talking about is a character built to tank. Sure its easy if you stack gear with Physical and Magical resist, but often times your sacrificing dps stats. There are too many factors that one must consider if they want to play melee dps compared to ranged. 

Possible fix is just boosting attack power gained from each hero attack point. Melee are like "Class cannons"  but without the cannon. Give them the cannon and i'll be ok with being glass.

Just thought of another option. 2 Uber spheres for melee.

Protection uber - decreases all sources of damage by 50% reduces hero damage by 10%

Attack uber- increase all damage hero does by 80% increases damage taken by 10%

This way you either play a glass cannon or tanker.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@cheeseburglr quote:

What your talking about is a character built to tank. Sure its easy if you stack gear with Physical and Magical resist, but often times your sacrificing dps stats. There are too many factors that one must consider if they want to play melee dps compared to ranged. 

Possible fix is just boosting attack power gained from each hero attack point. Melee are like "Class cannons"  but without the cannon. Give them the cannon and i'll be ok with being glass.

Just thought of another option. 2 Uber spheres for melee.

Protection uber - decreases all sources of damage by 50% reduces hero damage by 10%

Attack uber- increase all damage hero does by 80% increases damage taken by 10%

This way you either play a glass cannon or tanker.

Yeah I said it earlier in this thread, but this thread isn't about melee tanks. It's about melee DPS and combat in general. Any character can technically build a ton of HP and resists and stand still.. it doesn't matter what your attacks do or feel like at that point. The issue here isn't that, it's if you decide to build your squire/monk as a tanky DPS or pure DPS. With the awkward lunge, that isn't even a viable option right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well raising the dps and neclacing the def, it still is a dps char even if he is full def, the question here is how high shall the overall DPS be for a dps squire. If you reducing the def, you get higher damage out by increase your damage, but then you die faster if you are unlucky, so a dps squire which can survive is actually a pretty tanky one, which is not wrong for meele. He might get more dps out overall because he survives long enough. Even as a mixed squire you still can get up to 40-80k damage hits on monster and take 2-3 punches from a boss as an excample. Going full glass canon squire i actually don't know what is possible there. I only know from my monk which is kinda full dps that he gets a really high damage output out and still survives like 1 hit, but that's a fair trade of in my eyes for having such high damage. With bear Kira it is rather safe to use such meele damage dealers, but then is that the job of this class?

When the lunge can be deactivated it actually would help probably alot to keep them save from damage, at last more outside of the monster hit range, kiting would be easier maybe. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Aheadatime quote:

dreamanime 

I'm curious, did you play DD1? 

Nope i didn't, i only watched some gameplay videos from it.

But like with every sequel of a game, it doesn't mean that the next part needs to be like the one before, just with better grafiks =). So i kinda "enjoy" the fact of not knowing how it was in dd1 with that i do have a different view to offer to the devs at last.

For me it is like not every class needs to be perfect for every situation like some here want it to be from the looks of it. I am fine if the app/huntress/monk isn't as tanky as the squire. I am fine if the squire doesn't deal as much damage as the other 3 too, simple because he offers other styles to play in my eyes then the other 3.

Not every character needs to be a oneshoot one for the sake of "making everything equal".

From my look on this, the squire is already pretty good where he is, he kinda offers even more then most of the other heroes or all of them. His damage is kinda okish but not that high. He can hold a lane infinite long and bosses too, that is one of his strongest points. He debuffs monster so the defense targeting them doing more damage, this supplements his high survivability nicely and through the debuffs he offers and the damage the defense does more he has a "passiv dps" which somehow is ignored by alot, even though it is tons of damage. This can be even further enhanced with pets making the effect realy crazy.

Giving him the same damage output like the other 3 would make him the "top choice" kinda because he can do everything then and more then the other.

For the lunge forward a option to togle it off on would be nice, like many mention it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[[94093,users]]

I agree that DD2 should be different than DD1, and it is. I also agree that every character should be unique, and so far, they feel that way to me.

Regarding the Squire in particular, I wouldn't want to have his damage increased either tbh. That's not the issue that I perceive with the 'DPS Squire' build. The issue is that he's not fun to use, nor is the Monk. The lunge forward mechanic is very punishing and makes melee attacking cringe worthy. The reason I asked about DD1 was to see if you had experience with the melee combat system of that game.

I covered it pretty thoroughly in the OP and in other posts, but simply put, DD1's melee characters could kite, focus certain enemies, strafe incoming attacks, and had total control over their movements during battle. For DD2, I wouldn't want any damage increase or new toys to play with if the fundamental mechanics of melee attacking are off-putting and anti-fun. If, as you suggest, the lunge mechanic is able to be turned off, then I think it would be a good time to start examining numbers, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Aheadatime quote:

dreamanime

I agree that DD2 should be different than DD1, and it is. I also agree that every character should be unique, and so far, they feel that way to me.

Regarding the Squire in particular, I wouldn't want to have his damage increased either tbh. That's not the issue that I perceive with the 'DPS Squire' build. The issue is that he's not fun to use, nor is the Monk. The lunge forward mechanic is very punishing and makes melee attacking cringe worthy. The reason I asked about DD1 was to see if you had experience with the melee combat system of that game.

I covered it pretty thoroughly in the OP and in other posts, but simply put, DD1's melee characters could kite, focus certain enemies, strafe incoming attacks, and had total control over their movements during battle. For DD2, I wouldn't want any damage increase or new toys to play with if the fundamental mechanics of melee attacking are off-putting and anti-fun. If, as you suggest, the lunge mechanic is able to be turned off, then I think it would be a good time to start examining numbers, etc.

Couldn't explain it any better then this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@I_PASS_BUTTER quote:


@Ubara-tutu quote:

To clarify, don't remove it, just make it an option that we can turn on or off as we prefer. Also it should apply to the monk as well.

I've passed this on to our Design/Production team. No promises, though!

Eagerly waiting for there responce. Afraid to say I'll be playing other games while I wait, as the way it is now I can't imagine myself spending any more time or money on the game until I can enjoy melee combat. I hate to say that as I love DD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Agarrus quote:


@I_PASS_BUTTER quote:


@Ubara-tutu quote:

To clarify, don't remove it, just make it an option that we can turn on or off as we prefer. Also it should apply to the monk as well.

I've passed this on to our Design/Production team. No promises, though!

Eagerly waiting for there responce. Afraid to say I'll be playing other games while I wait, as the way it is now I can't imagine myself spending any more time or money on the game until I can enjoy melee combat. I hate to say that as I love DD.

Danny stated in the dev stream "we've had many discussions on this internally, it won't be happening" 

Pretty much shooting down any notion of removing the lunge. We need to make more noise about the lunge to be honest because if it continues to go unchanged I can't see melee combat ever being fun regardless of how many amazing special weapons and ubers they give to monk and squire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are shooting themselves in the foot if they refuse to change/remove/fix melee DPS in some form or fashion.  As it is right now, it's play huntress or bust and that's not very fun. Lunging attacks are not fun, either, hence why I absolutely despise my squire. Monk isn't quite as bad, but still annoying.

Ranged dps = stand still and enjoy not having to worry about anything. And then on the other side of the spectrum you have those poor... poor melee who have to dodge like a son of a *** and hope they make it out alive. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, the game will get stale pretty quickly when the only viable end game dps is hunter. 

Melee really needs some loving. I really hope something is done about it because I personally hate playing range dps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...