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CrzyRndm

Looking at Loot

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Under the spotlight this time is everyone's "favourite" friend, loot (and it's baggage train). The CDT's first update has some very small tweaks and bug fixes to the loot generator, but there are many issues that require a bit more than a bandaid to resolve, and they aren't all confined to the stat RNG either. While many of these probably won't change until a number of other generation tweaks are ready for testing, we are interested in your opinions and feedback on changes this system could undergo.

The remainder of this post is comprised of some short summaries of issues I have done some research on, and some questions arising from that research for some discussion starters. If you have thoughts on improving other facets of the loot system, don't limit yourself to these topics (although I would prefer if we stayed away from the stat generator for now. That highway leads to progression and balance, which *this* discussion is *not* about)

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Before a piece of loot goes anywhere near the stat generator, its appearance (and by extension, type) is decided. For as long as I can remember, there have been complaints about the lack of armour in this selection. More recently, rewards from Lab Assault have revealed another flaw in the near complete exclusion of some templates from this selection. Investigations of the cause of these concluded that the implementation of the weighted random selection that was supposed to make some items a little more common than others has some "interesting" flaws.
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    * What should the ratio of weapon to armour be like?
   
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Skipping through stat generation for now, next in the queue is item evaluation (The step that decides whether the stats your item comes with identify it as a cursed, godly, or mythical and up). The issues here are rather tangled in each other, with two different item evaluation calculations and a variety of limits and bonuses being applied. Inconsistent application of the godly label (Armour with 8 negatives ended up as godly and not cursed, armour with a few large negatives turning up as godly instead of mythical, items with almost no stats evaluating as godly), weapons being commonly evaluated as a higher tier than comparable armour, and the extreme rarity of some tiers can all be blamed on this tangled fragment of logic.
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    * Do the minimum upgrade levels for higher tier items (trans and up) serve a useful purpose? Are they too strict? (ie. if an armour generates with 50 upgrades and enough stats to be a supreme anyway, should it really be downgraded to mythical)
    * What should separate the "godly" tier from the "mythical" tier of items. An individual maximum stat? Or do we just allow that some high level items will have just the right number of negatives to fall into the gap between cursed and mythical
    * In rough terms how many transcendant, supreme, and ultimate items do you think you should be getting from 10 waves of survival on the hardest map in Nightmare? (eg. 10 trans per wave, 10 sup over 10 waves, 1 ult per 10 waves)
 
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Finally after the item is created and scored, we have the item comparer trying to make a judgement as to whether the new item should be equipped to your hero in place of its current equipment. Currently, this thing often manages to think that your highly upgraded item with amazing stats would be better switched for the average (at best) piece of random loot lying on the ground. While a part of this comes from the fact that you gain more by increasing a select few of the 10 available stats, the core of the problem is a flawed evaluation that in no way looks like something a player would do.
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    * If a point in a hero stat (eg. health, casting rate, tower range) is worth 1 point, how many would you assign to the other item stats (maximum upgrades, primary damage, elemental damage, # projectiles, etc.)

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@CrzyRndm quote:

    * Do the minimum upgrade levels for higher tier items (trans and up) serve a useful purpose? Are they too strict? (ie. if an armour generates with 50 upgrades and enough stats to be a supreme anyway, should it really be downgraded to mythical)

In my opinion, Yes. Allong with 90% of items labeled as higher tier items being useless as they are, we don't really need another chunk of highly labeled loot that would be useless due to having a very low amount of upgrades. 

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@CrzyRndm quote:


    * What should the ratio of weapon to armour be like?

    * In rough terms how many transcendant, supreme, and ultimate items do you think you should be getting from 10 waves of survival on the hardest map in Nightmare? (eg. 10 trans per wave, 10 sup over 10 waves, 1 ult per 10 waves)

   

Make it 50/50.

Make Lab and Survival equal in terms of loot potential, 3 minute challenge shouldn't out-loot 1 hour+ map.

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I got a ton of loot yesterday from an Aquanos nightmare survival, not one worthy weapon or piece of armor.  One tidal staff (trans) with possible potential, will examine it more closely later on.

IMO a RNG should be random, and the items it drops should match the normal distribution stat curve.  Lots of run of the mill, with some sub-par, some good, and a few great and a few junk, and some rare awesome, and rare all negative stat items, which are pretty common.

http://mathcentral.uregina.ca/QQ/database/QQ.09.06/s/adrian1.1.gif

And the normal negative skewed DD RNG below on the left lol

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Negative_and_positive_skew_diagrams_%28English%29.svg/2000px-Negative_and_positive_skew_diagrams_%28English%29.svg.png

I have no idea how it's programmed and how hard it is to change it?

Would the easiest thing be to set some floor values or additional caps?  (ie: like myth min ups 75 and max 2xx,  I know that wouldn't be random but it might be an easier way to get the RNG to spawn more within a normal dist stat curve, if that's what the CDT is looking for??

"* What should the ratio of weapon to armour be like"

Well to keep it simple since there are 4 pcs per set, I would say 4:1

* What should separate the "godly" tier from the "mythical" tier of items. An individual maximum stat? Or do we just allow that some high level items will have just the right number of negatives to fall into the gap between cursed and mythical.

hmmmm regarding this, godly to myth, probably should be max/min stats, and # of upgrades.  On negatives, I think cursed should have more negs, along with unlucky, or any tier with unlucky while enchanted myth maybe has a chance for only 1 neg to spawn.  Negs I don't think should be dictated by godly, myth, trans, etc.  There is lots of +30 stat godly stuff with no negs.  And I have seen Unlucky armor with stats that make enchanted look like cursed unlucky.  So I guess I am trying to say, stats should also align with not only type/tier, but quality (unlucky, blank, lucky, blessed, enchanted)

http://dungeondefenders.wikia.com/wiki/Quality

Not sure if this helps, will refine more later.




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@Sir Pancakez : Make Lab and Survival equal in terms of loot potential, 3 minute challenge shouldn't out-loot 1 hour+ map.

Any estimates around on the frequency of good stuff from LA? The loot controls for rewards don't really translate well to random drops (and the quantities involved are quite different anyway)

@anotherengineer : I have no idea how it's programmed and how hard it is to change it?

In general, individual stats are generated with a positively biased distribution (more high rolls than low ones). It's the sheer number of sequential good rolls required for a "good" item that skew it the other way (each hero stat requires 3 major rolls, selection, magnitude, and the negative check. Then you have upgrades, and all the other stats...). Lab assault manages to create lots of good stuff by using a ridiculously heavy bias (50% of rolls land above 80%) and the relatively large quantities.

As far as changes go, the whole thing is open so long as it doesn't require messing with saves (much, I can always fake a few thing if required).

The lucky/unlucky name tag is only related to the number of positive and negative elemental resistances (generic not included because originally it was always present and positive).

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@CrzyRndm quote:
@Sir Pancakez : Make Lab and Survival equal in terms of loot potential, 3 minute challenge shouldn't out-loot 1 hour+ map.

Any estimates around on the frequency of good stuff from LA? The loot controls for rewards don't really translate well to random drops (and the quantities involved are quite different anyway)


Can't really come up with an estimate, but maybe you can probably pull 3 ults or so in about 20 runs.

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We have discussed that in chat to help me understand the questions.

I think you should make armor even with weapons, just like cakez said.

To remove garbage loot would be a good thing if it helps making survival on par with Lab in my opinion for the same reason Cakez mentioned (Wow he's wiser than I thought monk_small.png).

quote:

Acen: so when an item spawns with nice stats like supreme level

Acen: but if it is only given 50 ups, then it will be labeled mythical

Acen: it is all tied together though when determining quality of a piece is his point

Shouldn't the stats be checked to determine which quality the item should be Then give it a random number of ups ? But not full random, I don't want to see an Ult with only 1 up (only CD should be allowed to generate weapons like that squire_small.png).

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    Shouldn't the stats be checked to determine which quality the item should be Then give it a random number of ups ? But not full random, I don't want to see an Ult with only 1 up (only CD should be allowed to generate weapons like that squire_small.png).
______________________________________________________________________________________

Honestly, I would 100% prefer to do it this way. There is really no better way to describe the current system better than it being one ugly hack with a couple of bandaids taped on (the minimum upgrades are the result of people crying about trans with low upgrades, even though they don't actually change anything other than the colour of the dot and the set bonus. They're cosmetic fluff, nothing more).

There are a few other options, but I really don't like the idea of sticking more quick fixes in to fix problems with the original quick fixes (I'm sure everyone sees where that train is heading...).

tl;dr (because as usual, I'm rambling)

Making changes to core components requires a fair amount of testing. Thus it's better to bundle any related issues together and fix them all at the same time. Removing upgrades from the evaluation can also be paired with things like modifying how weapon stats are handled so that they aren't an order of magnitude more common just because "damage".
But to fix problems you need an ideal version to aim for. That's probably the main aim of the OP, looking for opinions on what the ideal is.

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@CrzyRndm quote:


    Shouldn't the stats be checked to determine which quality the item should be Then give it a random number of ups ? But not full random, I don't want to see an Ult with only 1 up (only CD should be allowed to generate weapons like that squire_small.png).
______________________________________________________________________________________

Honestly, I would 100% prefer to do it this way. There is really no better way to describe the current system better than it being one ugly hack with a couple of bandaids taped on (the minimum upgrades are the result of people crying about trans with low upgrades, even though they don't actually change anything other than the colour of the dot and the set bonus. They're cosmetic fluff, nothing more).

There are a few other options, but I really don't like the idea of sticking more quick fixes in to fix problems with the original quick fixes (I'm sure everyone sees where that train is heading...).

tl;dr (because as usual, I'm rambling)

Making changes to core components requires a fair amount of testing. Thus it's better to bundle any related issues together and fix them all at the same time. Removing upgrades from the evaluation can also be paired with things like modifying how weapon stats are handled so that they aren't an order of magnitude more common just because "damage".
But to fix problems you need an ideal version to aim for. That's probably the main aim of the OP, looking for opinions on what the ideal is.

If Akasames suggestion is what you think would work best, then go for it, sounds like a good idea to me. Beta testing ftw, am i right?

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i think that item tiers should be rolled first, then the item stats based on tier limits. That in adition to different tier chances on survivals depending on wave, as after all, diffiuclty increase per wave is quite noticeable on end game maps, so perhaps chance for greater tier each consecutive wave should also be noticable. Also i think that maybe last 5 waves of survivals should scale even much higher and give a real higher chance for ult tiers. so that those complaining they can do everything wit 3k stats would be satisfied.

 i do not ask for easier ults, i want them to be a bit more based on how good youre doing than pure luck.

2 i also think that tinkerers lab idea of survival end with campaign rewards is very nice, such should be with many more endgame maps with sligthly increased chance for greater tiers for the effort :D

i belive that upgrade amount based on tier is good thing, since its the increased cap of tiers compared to lower one is what makes us all want to get those ults 300^+, its in my opinion sad thing to see dark blue dot on your minimap just to find out its only 100 upgrades so that its no better than your myth piece.

about the loot proportions, i would say it should correspond a lot more to invenotry layout, since we get 4 slots for armor pieces and usually one for weapon, we should get armor to drop 4 times more often than weapons, or at least two. i quess this would reduce the need for using only summoners during survivals, which most of those experienced do.

 i know that generator makes better weapons according to their weight with far too big charge rate, knockback, or projectile speed, i think those should have been capped to avoid that for example charge rate shouldnt reallly spawn higher than 60, as for some thaths already enough for good timing, knockback over 100 makes no sense, nor does projectile speed over 60k, and it happens form lab weapons for example way too often, making them valuable garbage. and i would value those: knockback half the stats, charge rate half the stats, projcetile speed 1/1000 stats, projectile bonus triple the stats, upgrade number 1,5 stats

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@CrzyRndm quote:


    Shouldn't the stats be checked to determine which quality the item should be Then give it a random number of ups ? But not full random, I don't want to see an Ult with only 1 up (only CD should be allowed to generate weapons like that squire_small.png).
______________________________________________________________________________________

Honestly, I would 100% prefer to do it this way. There is really no better way to describe the current system better than it being one ugly hack with a couple of bandaids taped on (the minimum upgrades are the result of people crying about trans with low upgrades, even though they don't actually change anything other than the colour of the dot and the set bonus. They're cosmetic fluff, nothing more).

There are a few other options, but I really don't like the idea of sticking more quick fixes in to fix problems with the original quick fixes (I'm sure everyone sees where that train is heading...).

tl;dr (because as usual, I'm rambling)

Making changes to core components requires a fair amount of testing. Thus it's better to bundle any related issues together and fix them all at the same time. Removing upgrades from the evaluation can also be paired with things like modifying how weapon stats are handled so that they aren't an order of magnitude more common just because "damage".
But to fix problems you need an ideal version to aim for. That's probably the main aim of the OP, looking for opinions on what the ideal is.

When you say ideal, so you mean loot everywhere/anywhere in general, or survivals, or lab runs?

Lab runs - each run, 4 armor, 1 wep, 2 acc, 1 pet.  As for stats, tiers, etc.........hmmmmmmm

Survivals - I think Wep specific items on shards maps should get a little boost over regular items.  I have seen a few trans pieces drop on throne room, and on Aqua the other night I got about the same amount, 2-3 pcs trans wave 1-30.  I think Shards should drop 80% trans wave 25-30 and maybe 50/50 chance of a decent Sup every wave from 25-30.  Also the amount and frequency of trans I think should increase on NMHC survivials in end maps also, like KG, TD, Aka, etc.

As for loot generation hmmmm I know the below have fixed values (also I am not sure what they are), but IMHO, the ones below would be more 'ideal' for Armor but of course up for discussion.

Godlys stats 30-150, ups 30-100

Myth stats 100-300, ups 50-275

Trans stats 130-350, ups 80-325

Sup stats 150-400, ups 125-375

Ult stats 200-450, ups 175-425 (not sure if armor is to be ult, ult+ and ult++ ??

Now if the RNG is a shoddy hacked mess of bandaids, by all means take the time to fix it right, I have the patience to wait 6 months, if you have that kind of time to fix it right ;)

The more I think about the more daunting this task becomes for you.

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@Sir Pancakez quote:


@CrzyRndm quote:
@Sir Pancakez : Make Lab and Survival equal in terms of loot potential, 3 minute challenge shouldn't out-loot 1 hour+ map.

Any estimates around on the frequency of good stuff from LA? The loot controls for rewards don't really translate well to random drops (and the quantities involved are quite different anyway)


Can't really come up with an estimate, but maybe you can probably pull 3 ults or so in about 20 runs.

To add to this, I'd say 1 Survival run should equal to 20 Lab runs for both armour and weapons, it's takes about the same time for both and it'll give the same chance to farm the one core drop anyone is looking for (e.g. Aqua Lance, Desert Scimitar, Ship Rudder, etc..) and still possibly get an ult piece or two worth using/selling.

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Another thing.  From my NM Aqua survival run, there was epic and legendary and low tier items dropping.

For the shards and other end maps would it be possible when on NM, NMHC or NMHCMM to start the drops a godly as a minimum?

I also noticed myths disappearing and lower tier stuff staying.  (I thought that issue was fixed?)

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We have been investigating throwing out the low tier loot (I think Acen was discussing it in one of the chats just after I started this) as one possible way to increase the volume of viable survival rewards

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@CrzyRndm quote:

We have been investigating throwing out the low tier loot (I think Acen was discussing it in one of the chats just after I started this) as one possible way to increase the volume of viable survival rewards

Yea, he mentioned that. That works aswell, a few good options in this post, maybe there should be a beta for each option? and see which works out better. 

IDK if that's possible or worth it for you guys.

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I'm more of the opinion that a combination of changes is required. Tossing out the LQ items approximately doubles drop rates, but a doubling of 1 in x is still pretty low (Also doesn't really help if only 1 in 5-10 items is armour, and most/all of the weapons are low stat generics). To put it simply, no one change is going to magically "fix" drop rates (atleast not without other consequences)

As far as having multiple options available, it'd be significantly easier and more productive to have just one and then iterate on that based on feedback.

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@CrzyRndm quote:

I'm more of the opinion that a combination of changes is required. Tossing out the LQ items approximately doubles drop rates, but a doubling of 1 in x is still pretty low (Also doesn't really help if only 1 in 5-10 items is armour, and most/all of the weapons are low stat generics). To put it simply, no one change is going to magically "fix" drop rates (atleast not without other consequences)

As far as having multiple options available, it'd be significantly easier and more productive to have just one and then iterate on that based on feedback.

that is i why think making generator roll rarity first is good idea. this would let you make mob possible drop on survival (kings game example) wave ten 80% mythical 19% transcendent 1% supreme. 

On wave 20: 40% mythical 46% transcendent 10% supreme 3% ultimate 0.8% ult+ 0.2% ult++ 

But on  wave 30: 20% mythical 50% transcendent 20% supreme 7% ultimate 2,3% ultimate+ 0,7% ult++

this would seem much more fair reward for the difficulty of endgame survivals than it is now. also if you make roll rarity first you can easier cap stats depending on rarity with nice drop rates adjusted. so that imo should be 

supreme always better than mythical, ult >trans, (ult+)>sup, (Ult++)> ult

and seriously, armor should drop 4 times more often than weapons.

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Got a few epic and amazing armor pieces from a NMHC deeper well survival run last night with 40-85 ups lol  They didn't have much hero stats though.


Also I agree with the above.  The Deeper Well NMHC survival weps were dropping about 10 fold more than armor.

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I think the only thing that should be changed is to fix the bugs such as certain items not dropping or the ratio of armour to weapons. I'm fine with the drop rate for supreme and ultimate and the randomness of stats.

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For starters, I think a complete rewrite of the loot generator is probably in everyone's best interest. It's honestly just a mess.


That said, I don't think for the most part that current maps merit dropping much more than what they do now. There isn't much challenge in it.


The biggest change, in my mind, needs to be Survival. There is little reason to run survival at the moment, aside from getting Pristine armor, which is literally pointless since just having Pristine gives no innate benefit. Survivals need to give better loot. With the amount of insanely boring downtime, the rewards need to be better; in my opinion 2 ults every 3 waves for weapons is a good start. Obviously armor will wind up less than that.


While getting rid of the trash Godly drops is a possibility, I think a better method might be to increase the chance for chests to drop sup+ items. I myself in survival will completely skip over chests because there are other things I want to be doing while I have survival runs out, which imo isn't how chests should be. A treasure chest should have treasure.

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I think a few changes should be made to the way the system works in general.


For starters, minimum quality prefixes should be tied to the difficulty level with the map chosen influencing only the drop rate and stat bonuses.

Easy gives minimum prefix of cursed, maximum of amazing.

Normal gives torn, because normal is the baseline and cursed/torn are the first tier of equipable items. Maximum drop quality would be Epic.

Hard has a minimum drop quality of shining and a max of legendary.

Insane drops amazing through mythical, but mythical only drops as clear rewards from high-end content like Uber Monsterfest or wave 30+ on Survival.

Nightmare should NEVER drop anything lower than godly on any map, because anything less than godly in Nightmare is literally vendor trash that isn't even worth looking at. Late-game maps like Tavern Defense shouldn't even drop Godly after the first pet reward.


I was a lucky player to get a bunch of that glitchy high-stat gear from the first week of Insane Uber Monsterfest. Most of those pieces have been replaced over time.


As far as upgrades go, nothing that drops with less than 100 upgrades on armor is even worth looking at if you're trying to gear up for Nightmare, nothing with less than all four resists present and somewhat positive is worth considering for a non-builder.


Maybe my opinions are a bit outdated from not having played much in the last two years, but with the news of fresh updates in the pipeline for this amazing older game my enthusiasm has returned.

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@Voldine quote:
As far as upgrades go, nothing that drops with less than 100 upgrades on armor is even worth looking at if you're trying to gear up for Nightmare, nothing with less than all four resists present and somewhat positive is worth considering for a non-builder.

The question, though, is what should be done about those? Should they still spawn, or should they be gotten rid of? The fact that they're useless is already well known. (side fact: it takes 470 upgrades per piece to max resists for 3 resistance set)

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@Caimen0 quote:


@Voldine quote:
As far as upgrades go, nothing that drops with less than 100 upgrades on armor is even worth looking at if you're trying to gear up for Nightmare, nothing with less than all four resists present and somewhat positive is worth considering for a non-builder.

The question, though, is what should be done about those? Should they still spawn, or should they be gotten rid of? The fact that they're useless is already well known. (side fact: it takes 470 upgrades per piece to max resists for 3 resistance set)

Again, it should be bound to the difficulty of the map. On Nightmare, nothing above godly should drop with less than 150 upgrades. Even that is really low, but tolerably so if the stats on it are fantastic for builders.

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@Caimen0 quote:

For starters, I think a complete rewrite of the loot generator is probably in everyone's best interest. It's honestly just a mess.

It worked just fine for several years.


@Caimen0 quote:The biggest change, in my mind, needs to be Survival. There is little reason to run survival at the moment, aside from getting Pristine armor, which is literally pointless since just having Pristine gives no innate benefit. Survivals need to give better loot. With the amount of insanely boring downtime, the rewards need to be better; in my opinion 2 ults every 3 waves for weapons is a good start. Obviously armor will wind up less than that.

Survivals such as Sky City and Kings Game are giving regularly at least 1 Sup/Ult (armor) per run. Sky City takes about 60 minutes for me with transcendent armored builders, Kings Game roundabout 90 minutes but with higher drop rates than Sky City. That's a fair drop rate to me, more than fair. The game is already pretty easy with the new bonus maps like Tavern Defense and Akatiti. Challenges such as Lab Assault and Moonbase are making it even easier.


If you are looking to progress even further... beyond the point of a broken game (stat distribution) you may want to look into DD:Eternity. Right now I'm below 6k stats with my transcendent armored builders and the game is quite easy. To give you an example how easy the game actual is with 5k stats; Akatiti takes 2 aura stacks, 2 buff beams, 2 gas traps, 4 archers. I do use the same build with my full myth builders [[5685,users]] 3.5k tower damage but I have to add 4 reflections beams a 1 DU. I do carry 3 afks.


Eternity wasn't bad at all, it was just way to easy since the stat inflation was way of out-of-control. If you are looking to progress beyond the point of a broken game, you may want to take a look into DD:E.


People haven't played survival since Lab Assault has been released. That's basically reasoned by 2 facts:

A: Everyone gets his own loot... no item stealing.

B: The so often called "noobs" are able to run easily the "pros".


I've played tons of survivals and I also did tons of Lab Assault. In my opinion drop chances for Supreme+ is just as high as for survivals on maps like Sky City / Kings Game.


@Caimen0 quote:While getting rid of the trash Godly drops is a possibility, I think a better method might be to increase the chance for chests to drop sup+ items. I myself in survival will completely skip over chests because there are other things I want to be doing while I have survival runs out, which imo isn't how chests should be. A treasure chest should have treasure.

You may didn't get the point of rarity. Rare stuff has to be rare! We already talked explicitly about it at the steam discussions, neither you nor anyone else was able to actually answer me my questions. Why would you be in need of such stuff other than bragging rights, other than "massaging" your ego? Stats in DD1 are already kind of out-of-control since we are able to build with much less defense and minions units than available. So whenever your answer is for the stats being... you really should consider to take a look at DD:Eternity.


Yes, I know you (all) want to progress and of course it would be cool to run around in full ultimate ++ gear but since it isn't needed to beat anything in this game please think about it for a second.

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@EagleOne quote:


Survivals such as Sky City and Kings Game are giving regularly at least 1 Sup/Ult (armor) per run. Sky City takes about 60 minutes for me with transcendent armored builders, Kings Game roundabout 90 minutes but with higher drop rates than Sky City. That's a fair drop rate to me, more than fair. The game is already pretty easy with the new bonus maps like Tavern Defense and Akatiti. Challenges such as Lab Assault and Moonbase are making it even easier.


If you are looking to progress even further... beyond the point of a broken game (stat distribution) you may want to look into DD:Eternity. Right now I'm below 6k stats with my transcendent armored builders and the game is quite easy. To give you an example how easy the game actual is with 5k stats; Akatiti takes 2 aura stacks, 2 buff beams, 2 gas traps, 4 archers. I do use the same build with my full myth builders max 3.5k tower damage but I have to add 4 reflections beams a 1 DU. I do carry 3 afks.

I have done 3 full Moraggo Survival runs for weapons and did not get a single supreme or above. I ran both a partial (build sucked) and full King's Game run and got nothing but bad Trans and disappointment. I ran survivals for a total of ~8.5 hours and got horse***. That is a waste of time if ever I saw one.

I then received 200 lab runs (~10 hours) and got 13 Ultimate and 1 Ult++. The staggering difference is disgusting, and running survivals is made practically useless in my experience. There is nothing "fair" about 8.5 wasted hours and getting nothing. Compound this with the chance of getting DPS armor with less than 4 resists and you have an excellent reason to avoid Survival altogether.


If you bothered to look at my Steam profile, I have indeed played DDE. I played 60 hours then got bored and uninstalled it. Over a year ago.


One final point: The ease at which you can beat maps in DD has no impact on what gear you will or should get. If that were the case, as I mentioned on the Steam forums, the level cap would be 78 and the best you could get would be Trans items. We have maps like Akatiti, Tinkerer's Lab, Moonbase, and Buccaneer Bay that give out copious amounts of Ultimate its despite being able to be beaten with 2k stats. Your assertion that "rare items should be rare" is pointless because there are like 6 things total in Dungeon Defenders that are "rare", and they aren't rare because of difficulty. They're rare because it just takes a massive amount of runs to get them. Ultimate Seahorses are rare, but it's not hard to do a seahorse run. At all. It takes all of 10 minutes at most. Good Ultimate+/Ultimate++ armor is rare, but it's not because Lab Assault or survivals are hard. It takes 3 minutes to run Lab once with little effort (hell, you can get Ultimate++ from Insane. I've even seen Ultimate armor come from Hard); I can do full armor runs in survival by only upgrading beams and auras, then going afk for the wave. Ultimate Crystal Blades and Crystal Staffs are rare, but that's because you get them from Insane, which has a rather low quality multiplier, and furthermore have low stats on the items themselves.

The only maps in the game that really support rarity via difficulty right now are NMHCMM TL / WW / Akatiti, and we already know what's at the end of them: nothing special. We can get better versions from Insane. Hopefully Embermount changes that.

I want the item generator fixed, but not to increase the drop rate of Ultimate items. I want to remove the 1/1 myth crap that should have been a higher tier. Once the item generator is fixed, change spawn rates so you still get roughly the same Ultimate drop rates as before. If I can agree with you on anything, it's that the current item drop rates are in a good spot as it stands. My issue with the system isn't the lack of Ultimate, it's the frequency at which unusable Mythical items drop. If a new player finally beats Sky City, the chances that they get a terrible Steam Saw with less than 100 upgrades is pretty damn good (in my experience). The current item generator punishes new players going through high end maps. (See Crystalline Dimension) Even if those 1/1 myths turn into 1/200 myths, that to me is a problem solved, because now newer players to nightmare get to see  the power of those higher weapons without necessarily getting an Ultimate on their first run. Why are Gladiuses and Clavas so popular among new players? Because they frequently drop as Ultimate, with high stats, and with decent upgrades most of the time. Why were Eagle Crested Standards not very common before Moonbase with new players? Because the chance of getting a myth with terrible upgrades was the norm. (also, new players aren't very happy about Kraken or Ancient Dragon, either, but...)

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