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Thalios Damotil

Is this supposed to happen? (Item Passives)

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Yeah it can happen because the passiv stat range is depending on the item tier (legend, myth and so on). While the Item Power is more about the stats. So a 700 ipower legend can have worse passives then a 100 ipower leg.

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oh damn! I thought the frosty gear that added more than 10% was removed from game unless you had it prior to the NM gear wipe.

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ah the one left is the OLD value for frosty. It is reduced to 10%. The right one is a new one which can only max up to 10% instead of 40% max.

So grats on having some legacy gear, don't throw it away, keep it for later when trade comes and sell it, it's worth alot. GL

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Wow O.o Thanks guys for telling me xD Going to keep that on my apprentice since 39% forstfire beats 10%, right? I guess I will lose roughly 900 DP on my relic in endgame nm4 but this will probably still be more powerful with what I'm aiming for :D If there's just a small difference I will probably sell it some day.

EDIT: I just found out I have another item with more than 10%.. sadly it's 'just' 15%: Link

If the devs really want to get rid of legacy items I will use the cr*p out of this item xD Good thing i kept that other one

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im pretty sure the devs said they plan on getting rid of legacy gear gear like this because its too op compared to gear we can get now. so use it while you can.

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Some people have been exploiting the legacy gear to get the best "legit" gear...so it will still be fine for them after the wipe...


@Arcflare quote:

im pretty sure the devs said they plan on getting rid of legacy gear gear like this because its too op compared to gear we can get now. so use it while you can.


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I wished it would be possible to actually exploit it to get the best legit gear to be honest. Having such a hard time to actually FIND any good gear ;). If you finish a map with legacy or without, the drops don't change with it. :D *throws a donut at donut*

@Eat your Donut quote:

Some people have been exploiting the legacy gear to get the best "legit" gear...so it will still be fine for them after the wipe...


@Arcflare quote:

im pretty sure the devs said they plan on getting rid of legacy gear gear like this because its too op compared to gear we can get now. so use it while you can.



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When an elemental chaos trap does over 200k dmg because your forties have over 170% frosty power while the maximum (theoretically) is 50%, to me looks like you are "outside" the rules the devs want you to be.  In that sense, you consciously exploit a bug making maps and your experience of the game much easier...

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@Eat your Donut quote:


When an elemental chaos trap does over 200k dmg because your forties have over 170% frosty power while the maximum (theoretically) is 50%, to me looks like you are "outside" the rules the devs want you to be.  In that sense, you consciously exploit a bug making maps and your experience of the game much easier...

yes, maybe 170% but no dp... the items are <240. They definitely need to wipe the items but it's not so overpowered as it used to be before the gear-reroll

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@Eat your Donut quote:


When an elemental chaos trap does over 200k dmg because your forties have over 170% frosty power while the maximum (theoretically) is 50%, to me looks like you are "outside" the rules the devs want you to be.  In that sense, you consciously exploit a bug making maps and your experience of the game much easier...

It's the stacking of alot of ice to reach that damage not a single frosty. You can do it with legit gear too.

Well a cannon can go up to over 160k damage without the whole boost stuff is it an exploit that they are that strong, good ballistas go up too probably 200k, so someone who has the right gear (which you don't have) is exploiting it by using it? It's an exploit if something is not intended ( like serenity slow boost was to strong and stacked way to heavy the atk, or frost speed was stacking on tower while the devs intended a hard cap for it, stuff like that), but devs gave people time to farm for the gear so yeah. It's more like people who don't have the gear are the one who kinda see this as "outside" the rule while people who actually have the gear don't influence them all right? Nobody forces you to play with someone who uses legacy frost, you can do as fast and easy with normal traps and ice too, and you can do it without them too with cannons XD!! The loot still doesn't get better tho. Even if you have over 9000%! Legacy frost boost and 1 trillion damage on the traps. Loot doesn't get better.

I rather play with cannons to be honest, but most people who don't have legacy frost are the one who wants them to be used to exploit it, well or more to be accurate, so that they can be more afk :D I am pro full wipe btw too. Wouldn't mind at all if there is another full one.

If ya like we can do some maps with cannons btw, doesn't get your hope up that it mystical turns harder tho.

@chrissus quote:

yes, maybe 170% but no dp... the items are <240. They definitely need to wipe the items but it's not so overpowered as it used to be before the gear-reroll

aww come on, no logical arguments allowed in any discussion about old gear or hero decks!

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@dreamanime quote:


@Eat your Donut quote:


When an elemental chaos trap does over 200k dmg because your forties have over 170% frosty power while the maximum (theoretically) is 50%, to me looks like you are "outside" the rules the devs want you to be.  In that sense, you consciously exploit a bug making maps and your experience of the game much easier...

It's the stacking of alot of ice to reach that damage not a single frosty. You can do it with legit gear too.

Well a cannon can go up to over 160k damage without the whole boost stuff is it an exploit that they are that strong, good ballistas go up too probably 200k, so someone who has the right gear (which you don't have) is exploiting it by using it? It's an exploit if something is not intended ( like serenity slow boost was to strong and stacked way to heavy the atk, or frost speed was stacking on tower while the devs intended a hard cap for it, stuff like that), but devs gave people time to farm for the gear so yeah. It's more like people who don't have the gear are the one who kinda see this as "outside" the rule while people who actually have the gear don't influence them all right? Nobody forces you to play with someone who uses legacy frost, you can do as fast and easy with normal traps and ice too, and you can do it without them too with cannons XD!! The loot still doesn't get better tho. Even if you have over 9000%! Legacy frost boost and 1 trillion damage on the traps. Loot doesn't get better.

I rather play with cannons to be honest, but most people who don't have legacy frost are the one who wants them to be used to exploit it, well or more to be accurate, so that they can be more afk :D I am pro full wipe btw too. Wouldn't mind at all if there is another full one.

If ya like we can do some maps with cannons btw, doesn't get your hope up that it mystical turns harder tho.

@chrissus quote:

yes, maybe 170% but no dp... the items are <240. They definitely need to wipe the items but it's not so overpowered as it used to be before the gear-reroll

aww come on, no logical arguments allowed in any discussion about old gear or hero decks!

I did the same layout u did on gates nm4 inc 4 traps per lane 2 serenities 3 walls the rest frosties and my elemental chaos was never beyond 70k with all the frosties pointing to one enemy and the trap was fully upgraded...yours was hitting over 200k t4 so there is huge a difference....and my stats are not perfect but can solo nm4 inc....

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@Eat your Donut quote:

I did the same layout u did on gates nm4 inc 4 traps per lane 2 serenities 3 walls the rest frosties and my elemental chaos was never beyond 70k with all the frosties pointing to one enemy and the trap was fully upgraded...yours was hitting over 200k t4 so there is huge a difference....and my stats are not perfect but can solo nm4 inc....

My Traps don't hit over 200k all the time you know. The majority of damage they do is 30k-80k. Sometimes 120k (3 ice) and if all frostys (5-6!) are close together to buff one trap on mid lane then it comes over 200k. Don't take it as if it is a state which always happen like one frozen buffs and all traps are getting such damage.

This way ain't even a good way to build. I probably should double the traps and recude the amount of frosties, because that would lower the max damage they can do but increases the overall damage.

And there are even more factors in it, like fight like did you had a squire with fight me not in your test run? Damage increase there.

On the other hand you could build cannons or ballista or earth tower and flames =) they all reach 100k-150k easily when upped to T4-T5. Then you don't need to invest that much into traps+frosty 20+30 Du.

That you can solo nm4 inc is what counts. I am having abit more trouble to solo it, find it alot easier on the nm4 1000 ipow maps then the just 5 round inc maps to solo.

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Canons and ballistas do not have AoE. Although ballistas pierce... I am not critizicing ur build or ur stats in particular  it is more about devs not changing that...I know you are a very good defender so it is not about you personally :D....

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Well aoe is kinda for ballista thats what i mean the pierce :d.

I never see it as an crit on me :D i just defend the towers because they are good. Way better then currently frozen+ traps and a game state should be judged by how it is currently to not misguide the development kinda.

And we all love donuts anyway!

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Dream's pretty much right here.  Cannons are probably better than traps/frosties if we take into consideration with perfect gear frosty is only 50%


Currently I've got 84% with only two pieces of 240 ipwr so I'm only losing a bit of DP and I feel better using traps/frosty than cannons BUT my traptress is basically perfectly geared for max DP/tripwire/DH and cannon squire could get an extra* 16% crit chance on gear 

*for some reason the tooltip does't show more than 30% but I'm assuming that's a display bug?  pheonix is supposed to have way more than that and on squire with just gear we can get to 50% thanks to crit% on both sword and shield.  All other classes can get max 45% defense crit or hero crit


And every time I try cannon builds now I'm not using DPS huntress and trying to find a way to clear stuff with my blockade squire... so I'm basically using 3 hero slots instead of 4.  Only recently have I started to collect different sets of gear for pure tank + pet shield squire, DPS/Ap squire, and a bunch of different HP squire sets.   Doing it now because I fear the loot changes might make some of that gear impossible to get x.x


If anything, traps could really use a buff after taking away legacy gear because it's sort of obvious cannons can do what physical traps + elemental traps do better <_> lol

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I'm sorry but canons cannot compare to traps....The AoE is far more superior than the ability of canons to destroy frozen enemies plus the dmg output on ONE single target...There are many reasons why traps are superior. Canons aim at the closest enemy which in many cases can be a huge problem...They can get destroyed easily in contrast to traps...And although their dmg output is much bigger on single target if u have several enemies stacked together traps will probably outdmg canons as of total dmg dealt even if u compare one trap to 2 canons!!! 20DU vs 60 DU so I cannot believe you are being serious right now....


@Pachipachio quote:

Dream's pretty much right here.  Cannons are probably better than traps/frosties if we take into consideration with perfect gear frosty is only 50%


Currently I've got 84% with only two pieces of 240 ipwr so I'm only losing a bit of DP and I feel better using traps/frosty than cannons BUT my traptress is basically perfectly geared for max DP/tripwire/DH and cannon squire could get an extra* 16% crit chance on gear 

*for some reason the tooltip does't show more than 30% but I'm assuming that's a display bug?  pheonix is supposed to have way more than that and on squire with just gear we can get to 50% thanks to crit% on both sword and shield.  All other classes can get max 45% defense crit or hero crit


And every time I try cannon builds now I'm not using DPS huntress and trying to find a way to clear stuff with my blockade squire... so I'm basically using 3 hero slots instead of 4.  Only recently have I started to collect different sets of gear for pure tank + pet shield squire, DPS/Ap squire, and a bunch of different HP squire sets.   Doing it now because I fear the loot changes might make some of that gear impossible to get x.x


If anything, traps could really use a buff after taking away legacy gear because it's sort of obvious cannons can do what physical traps + elemental traps do better <_> lol


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You just gave a bunch of scenarios where traps are better and outright ignored the one thing you attributed cannons to have, can't you see your own bias?  You even included a bunch of stuff that's absolutely negligible like aiming (how is it a huge problem unless you're going for afk builds?) or the susceptibility to damage (their range is very large, can place things so that flying kobalds don't hit them). 

"And although their dmg output is much bigger in single target if u have several enemies stacked together traps will probably outdmg canons as of total dmg dealt even if u compare one trap to 2 canons!!!"


lol, and what if you don't have everything stacked up?


Cannons are superior in a couple of scenarios because every cannon you place in a lane will be able to hit everything in that lane (vector corrector + 1/2 range spheres), where as traps have to be sectioned off to target melee, witherbeast, drakin, spear chuckers, and magi... which is 4-5 different ranges.   Now, I'll be the first to say (and have said) there are a couple maps that have superb trap locations (think tight turns or favorable spawner locations) where I'll always bring trap/frosty because those 5 locations get shortened up to 1 or 2 and then all the traps there hit everything.  Liferoot is a good example of a map where traps have favorable positions and there are no positions where cannons can cover multiple lanes

Also, need to consider the monster schedules for the type of game you're in.  If it's regular NM4 then we've got 1 hard lane + a bunch of crappy 36 goblin lanes and everything comes out in 4 discrete waves.  Cannons can overlap and so if one lane is a goblin lane that gets smashed by the cannons there they can target the other lane's drakin or whatever, so it's a bit more DU efficient in that regard.  Traps will always only hit their lane, and not even the entire lane at that.

For the same reason the DPS character matters - if there is little impact in the lane from the DPS character then single target will suffer (because monster density will go up).  But if the DPS character is tricked out and taking out a large amount of monsters from the hard lane then the value/impact of single target damage goes up.


On another hand, gearing up anything non-huntress for damage is different because one can forgo tower health entirely and go for crit.  Makes it a lot harder to gear up because there are passives... and the distance between "crappy cannon build" and "best cannon build" is a lot bigger than "crappy trap build" vs "best trap build".


I'm not just talking out of my ass here, have a nearly perfect traptress and I'm recognizing the benefits a cannon/monk/whateverDPS has got.  Unrelated, but that's another reason to go for this - lets you play whatever DPS hero you need to gear up.  Part of the deal with trap/frosty is that you need a DPS that can handle anti-air duties

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What?  I just gave a bunch of paragraphs explaining what you missed with regards to your literally ignoring "it only has really high single target damage".  So, yeah, it was pretty decently biased

Those are legitimate reasons why single target can pull ahead of AoE.  The AoE is very restricted by range and the AOE only obviously pulls ahead if there is a large monster density and/or the structure of the lane mitigates the range issues of traps.  



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Also the fact that it takes a lot of grinding to get a good canon squire goes also against the squire build making the traptress easier to grind...So this game is really Traptress/Frosty based right now....If you do not want to see it let me maybe give another FACT...dreamamine is a little schyzo he claims canons are better but yet I played with him a couple times and he only used traps not even a single canon so difficult to believe he really thinks canons are better.... I hope we randomly meet in the game to see how many canons you use in your builds...


@Pachipachio quote:

You just gave a bunch of scenarios where traps are better and outright ignored the one thing you attributed cannons to have, can't you see your own bias?  You even included a bunch of stuff that's absolutely negligible like aiming (how is it a huge problem unless you're going for afk builds?) or the susceptibility to damage (their range is very large, can place things so that flying kobalds don't hit them). 

"And although their dmg output is much bigger in single target if u have several enemies stacked together traps will probably outdmg canons as of total dmg dealt even if u compare one trap to 2 canons!!!"


lol, and what if you don't have everything stacked up?


Cannons are superior in a couple of scenarios because every cannon you place in a lane will be able to hit everything in that lane (vector corrector + 1/2 range spheres), where as traps have to be sectioned off to target melee, witherbeast, drakin, spear chuckers, and magi... which is 4-5 different ranges.   Now, I'll be the first to say (and have said) there are a couple maps that have superb trap locations (think tight turns or favorable spawner locations) where I'll always bring trap/frosty because those 5 locations get shortened up to 1 or 2 and then all the traps there hit everything.  Liferoot is a good example of a map where traps have favorable positions and there are no positions where cannons can cover multiple lanes

Also, need to consider the monster schedules for the type of game you're in.  If it's regular NM4 then we've got 1 hard lane + a bunch of crappy 36 goblin lanes and everything comes out in 4 discrete waves.  Cannons can overlap and so if one lane is a goblin lane that gets smashed by the cannons there they can target the other lane's drakin or whatever, so it's a bit more DU efficient in that regard.  Traps will always only hit their lane, and not even the entire lane at that.

For the same reason the DPS character matters - if there is little impact in the lane from the DPS character then single target will suffer (because monster density will go up).  But if the DPS character is tricked out and taking out a large amount of monsters from the hard lane then the value/impact of single target damage goes up.


On another hand, gearing up anything non-huntress for damage is different because one can forgo tower health entirely and go for crit.  Makes it a lot harder to gear up because there are passives... and the distance between "crappy cannon build" and "best cannon build" is a lot bigger than "crappy trap build" vs "best trap build".


I'm not just talking out of my ass here, have a nearly perfect traptress and I'm recognizing the benefits a cannon/monk/whateverDPS has got.  Unrelated, but that's another reason to go for this - lets you play whatever DPS hero you need to gear up.  Part of the deal with trap/frosty is that you need a DPS that can handle anti-air duties


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Oh boy. 


Were we talking about whether traps/frosties were the better way to progress in the game for a new player or whether or not cannons are better than them in specific scenarios?

I thought it was clear enough that I was talking about NM4 non-incursion maps, and only the ones that don't have tight turns and/or the right kind of spawners.


And yeah, NM4 greystone is cannons + serenity + boost only.  How else am I supposed to gear up my squire solo

And nah, you probably wont find me in game lol, I haven't done random pugs in 4ever.

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@Eat your Donut quote:

Some people have been exploiting the legacy gear to get the best "legit" gear...so it will still be fine for them after the wipe...


@Arcflare quote:

im pretty sure the devs said they plan on getting rid of legacy gear gear like this because its too op compared to gear we can get now. so use it while you can.


exploiting now because people still have legacy gear? because we paid for the game before it became f2p? gtfo

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