Jump to content

An Alternative Approach to Toxicity


Recommended Posts

Everyday we see a new thread of one player indicting one or all of their allies; "didn't repair". 

I do not think this is a matchmaking problem.  My hypothesis is that the toxicity is a side effect of the removal of upgrading during combat phase and the bland combat system, resulting in players only having 1 impactful action during combat: repair walls.

In DD2, when playing a builder in combat, you are pointless outside of repairing walls.  You don't have the EHP to take a single hit, auto attacks and abilities do inconsequential damage and cc abilities last 10-20% of the cooldown (assuming you don't die trying to use them).  Monsters will certainly reach the walls and your only action is to repair.

If you are playing a dps hero in combat, your auto attack damage is noticeable but not powerful and some abilities are slight increases in dps from auto attacking (some are not).  Uber'd App cyclone is a reasonably powerful cc and squire provoke is a reasonable mention, but generally cc abilities are garbage.  In then end, you cannot solo a lane and monsters will reach the walls.  As a result, you will always be forced back to repair the walls.

TL:DR: In DD2, players only have one impactful action during combat phases; repair walls.

In DD1, builder heroes still did no damage, repaired when needed and otherwise spent the whole round trying to upgrade towers.

DPS heroes did impactful (alright, downright hilarious) damage and abilities did incredible damage.  This allowed them to clear-up clogged chokes or assist a specific area that was falling behind if they were watching the map for it.  Their default action was to upgrade towers if there was nothing to respond to.

TL:DR: In DD1, dps heroes were much more impactful.  Players pro-actively upgraded towers and repaired when needed.

With the loss of upgrading during combat in DD2, players are left with 1 impactful action during combat phases; repair walls.  This results in a binary judgement of players.  If they repair, they are "good".  If they do not, they are "bad".  There is nothing else a player can do that will keep them out of the doghouse if they are not repairing walls because all other actions are not impactful.

-

Solutions

The direct solutions my analysis suggest would be

1) Reinstate some form of upgrading during combat.

2) Increase DPS heroes' overall damage.

This would develop the game toward its predecessor, however I do not think that is absolutely necessary.  My over-arching suggestion is to develop and implement more impactful, pro-active actions for players.  With multiple, impactful options for players to take during combat, judgement across the playerbase would be more matrix-like and less binary.

Alright, done with the eloquent part.  This might work, but who knows, I know a lot of jerks who find one flaw and yell at someone because of the one flaw, regardless of other facets.  

TL;DR: *** u buddy, repair ur wall!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty sure in DD1, tower heroes still had *some* purpose on the field if you had room for them because having the tower builder out gave a 33% damage bonus to towers built by that builder.

Because of special abilities and fewer stats on each item (admittedly I do like not having to deal with items giving -1000000 in random things), I agree that characters tend to be too specialized and the balance between damage sources (friendly and enemy) has resulted in something like what you said.

I do like the ability to attack and repair, but I feel that that has brought unnecessary emphasis to repairing in the process. However, for similar reasons, I do feel that the notion of being able to repair and attack simultaneously would mean that balancing the DPS race between players and enemies around the wall cannot be solved by just increasing player DPS. It would be the same problem because it would still be the best move to always repair and attack.

One thing I can think of that could relieve the issue (but still doesn't guarantee a real solution) would be to try and increase the intensity of Service Call and make it appear with defense stats possibly in complement to increasing the DPS of DPS heroes. This would mean that builders would have to weave around within the walls to fix the walls, and DPS heroes would be weaving around the walls themselves to relieve the pressure. This way builders become relevant during combat phase, and it's not just "everyone repair all the time". However, where this falters is the earlier-mentioned "you can always repair and attack" problem. If repairing cost blue and green mana, then I can see DPS heroes being scared away from repairing except for the fact that they're the ones most likely to be picking it up.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can upgrade during the combat phase... The only time it really makes sense to upgrade during the combat phase is in the first few waves when you'll be upgrading next wave anyway. In later waves you probably don't have 150-200 mana sitting around, and if you do, it would probably be better to keep it for repairing multiple things rather than blow it all on one upgrade.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually upgrade rather often inbetween the wave, to make the new dropped mana usefull. It can help alot too in a fight.

And i do think DD2 Heroes are very impactfull. Good geared Heroes can manage 1-2 lanes nearly on their own in nm4. Or holding on their own if they are a tank. This is very impactfull at last for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@xCrispy quote:

You can upgrade during the combat phase... The only time it really makes sense to upgrade during the combat phase is in the first few waves when you'll be upgrading next wave anyway. In later waves you probably don't have 150-200 mana sitting around, and if you do, it would probably be better to keep it for repairing multiple things rather than blow it all on one upgrade.

The potential to upgrade during combat phase is there, but the application is not. You're encouraged to spend almost all of your green mana before starting combat phase - it even indicates as such in the tutorial. You'll obviously keep some mana to repair, but not enough to where you're going to upgrade during combat phase.

I do agree that hero damage is not nearly impactful enough, but that's not the only piece of the puzzle missing. Right now really the only threat to defenses are witherbeasts - if there were more enemies that required player intervention, I would get a lot more enjoyment out of the game. I would much rather the difficulty of the game scale by the number of threats that require player action, not just the health and damage of incoming enemies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@gigazelle quote:


@xCrispy quote:

You can upgrade during the combat phase... The only time it really makes sense to upgrade during the combat phase is in the first few waves when you'll be upgrading next wave anyway. In later waves you probably don't have 150-200 mana sitting around, and if you do, it would probably be better to keep it for repairing multiple things rather than blow it all on one upgrade.

The potential to upgrade during combat phase is there, but the application is not. You're encouraged to spend almost all of your green mana before starting combat phase - it even indicates as such in the tutorial. You'll obviously keep some mana to repair, but not enough to where you're going to upgrade during combat phase.

I do agree that hero damage is not nearly impactful enough, but that's not the only piece of the puzzle missing. Right now really the only threat to defenses are witherbeasts - if there were more enemies that required player intervention, I would get a lot more enjoyment out of the game. I would much rather the difficulty of the game scale by the number of threats that require player action, not just the health and damage of incoming enemies.

I was refuting the fact that OP mentioned a removal of upgrading during the combat phase, which has not happened. If one knows they need to upgrade, why wouldn't they do it during the build phase? We're encouraged to spend our green mana during the build phase because that makes the most sense most of the time doesn't it? If one isn't sure whether or not they need to upgrade right away, then they can go into the combat phase holding onto that mana and upgrade during combat if needed. The application is there.

Agreed about the difficulty scaling though. Definitely need some new exciting enemies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Deathlok quote:

Obviously, the opportunity to upgrade during combat is in DD2.  Nobody does it, for obvious reasons.

 Then can you clarify what you meant by "removal of upgrading during combat phase" and "reinstate some form of upgrading during combat"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Any more damage going to heroes and the game whole game will be face roll..

How is 30-40k AoE dmg or 100k single target DPS not enough? (What would be okay for you?)

You got CC that almost rends frost tower useless if you got a bear pet for each lane.(In terms of slow)

Shields that can do 800k+ damage. 

Tanking with curse aura that makes any damage done by enemies meaningless. Which will let you tank 95% of all the enemies.

So what DPS do you want a DPS hero to do, in you'r mind to be useful? 

Abilities useless? You can do 300k+ damage with grenades. 150k burst with App mana bomb. Phoenix. Manipulate mobs with Squire. Lowest CD smash on monk to insta kill enemies. 

Normal grenade stun last a long time if you have the correct gear, same with tornado CC. 

Any more damage towards heroes will make it too easy. We already have so many tools to work with. Which the later ones are all OP. Especially Bearkira pet. Basically lets you freeze a lane, with 90% upkeep or so. 




Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@PandynatorDD quote:

Any more damage going to heroes and the game whole game will be face roll..

How is 30-40k AoE dmg or 100k single target DPS not enough? (What would be okay for you?)

You got CC that almost rends frost tower useless if you got a bear pet for each lane.(In terms of slow)

Shields that can do 800k+ damage. 

Tanking with curse aura that makes any damage done by enemies meaningless. Which will let you tank 95% of all the enemies.

So what DPS do you want a DPS hero to do, in you'r mind to be useful? 

Abilities useless? You can do 300k+ damage with grenades. 150k burst with App mana bomb. Phoenix. Manipulate mobs with Squire. Lowest CD smash on monk to insta kill enemies. 

Normal grenade stun last a long time if you have the correct gear, same with tornado CC. 

Any more damage towards heroes will make it too easy. We already have so many tools to work with. Which the later ones are all OP. Especially Bearkira pet. Basically lets you freeze a lane, with 90% upkeep or so. 

It's not about how much damage you do, it's about where that damage is applied. I want 1M+ DPS heroes and defenses, but still have ways to lose when the Old One's strategies outsmart us. This thread provides ways on how to accomplish this - in short, introduce more enemy types that require hero attention. If we fail to address those threats, we still lose despite the astronomical amount of damage we do.

This would do quite a bit in terms of toxicity - for one it would open up the possibility to introduce many builds into the game; as long as you have a semi-effective build, you can obliterate common enemies even in NM4. It would also require coordination outside of "repair that wall you noob" - someone would dedicate their time to making sure there aren't any enemies hiding in corners of the map applying global debuffs, while someone else would tank a special enemy that would otherwise break through defenses. If everyone "took a lane" like we are now and failed to address the threat of a hiding enemy that provides a global debuff, that debuff would eventually reach a point to where both heroes and defenses are worthless, and common enemies stomp right through to the objective. Toxic players couldn't reasonably get mad at others, because the failure was a team effort due to lack of coordination, not because noobs forgot to repair. Hunting out these hiding enemies would not be hard, but failing to address them guarantees defeat.

It doesn't have to be all about damage numbers, and the fact that Trendy is putting so much emphasis on this is concerning. With the exception of hearty blockades and frosty power, defenses are in a roughly balanced state right now. I would much rather see enemy threat mechanics fleshed out much more than new builds - witherbeasts and ogres are a great start, but there are more ways to threaten our defenses than just from the front.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dude... DD1 was soooo "toxic."  The only difference between DD1 and DD2 is the fact that content in DD2 requires you to play hard to beat the content.  You could have everyone leech in your game in DD1 and be useless and still win NM games if you had over-powered gear.

Personally, the witherbeasts are a *HUGE* f'n threat and can be very difficult to deal with once burrowed (unless you can get an instant kill).  Ogres are not enough of a threat wile being OP broken with their range/damage to kill stuff behind the walls, or simply walk over walls and ignore hero aggro.  I don't want there to bee too many threats because then I'll almost never be able to play public games.  Too many players aren't able to handle the complexities of "My towers can't win this on their own."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do agree about CC abilities being of debatable value, and this hurts the game.

Some abilities have damage and thats it. Sticky nades. Arcane volley. So the value of these skills is in the damage. Other abilities have CC and some damage. So they tend to do less damage, because you get the CC too. This makes sense.

Except that the grounded effect randomly pops up and takes your CC away. So you're left with a DPS that just doesn't do enough.

Whats more depressing than trying to help clear out a struggling lane on a mage or monk only to find out that your main form of CC, usually so useful, simply doesn't work?

Its the same reason geyser traps don't see much use. If the players can't depend on it, we'll use something we can.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The game has in alphaphase allready the same problem like Diablo3. The extreeeem Numbers. They allready do 2.000.000.000 Dmg and on PTR is allready anything what makes 36.ooo.ooo x weapon dmg or stuff like that. I hope the diablo3 server shut down soon to "integer error:integer to high value".

pls start in this alpha to reduce the dmg. Its ok to do 5 dmg on level 1 and make 500 at 50 and full geared about 5000. Thats complete enough. PLEEEASE THINK ABOUT THIS!

I am sure there will be Nightmare 5 and 6 and 7 and... are we going to make 2.345.675.321 dmg then? I cant allready see anything due to numbers on my screen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@playlessNamer quote:

The game has in alphaphase allready the same problem like Diablo3. The extreeeem Numbers. They allready do 2.000.000.000 Dmg and on PTR is allready anything what makes 36.ooo.ooo x weapon dmg or stuff like that. I hope the diablo3 server shut down soon to "integer error:integer to high value".

pls start in this alpha to reduce the dmg. Its ok to do 5 dmg on level 1 and make 500 at 50 and full geared about 5000. Thats complete enough. PLEEEASE THINK ABOUT THIS!

I am sure there will be Nightmare 5 and 6 and 7 and... are we going to make 2.345.675.321 dmg then? I cant allready see anything due to numbers on my screen.

Clearly you've never played DD1...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@xCrispy quote:


@Deathlok quote:

Obviously, the opportunity to upgrade during combat is in DD2.  Nobody does it, for obvious reasons.

 Then can you clarify what you meant by "removal of upgrading during combat phase" and "reinstate some form of upgrading during combat"?

Upgrading towers in DD1 was a long, long process once you reached insane+ difficulty and could no longer instant upgrade during the build phase.  Furthermore, as maps became larger and more complex, there were many more towers and the distance between important points became relevant. 

All of these factors created a complex problem for the player; where do I spend time upgrading? (aka what area needs my attention?) Which towers do I upgrade?  Where or how do I get the mana to upgrade?  Will I even be able to upgrade towers? (taking damage would interrupt the upgrade "cast")

Acquiring the mana alone was a complex problem, as the costs were significantly higher, as shown below:

Upgrade --- DD1 cost --- DD2 cost

1^ --- 100 --- 50

2^ --- 200 --- 100

3^ --- 400 --- 150

star --- 700 --- 200

3star --- 1220 --- N/A

These increased upgrade costs, combined with map chests giving hilariously pitiful amounts of mana (40-80 mana per chest until very high difficulty maps), meant players spent most combat rounds trying to gather mana without dying, spending it upgrading without being interrupted, gathering more mana, upgrading, etc, etc.  Even with the best gear in the game, it would take me 4-5 combat waves to upgrade all my towers in any given map to 3-star.  Without good gear that wasn't even a possibility, you just worked your hardest and ended up with what you got. 

The upgrade system in DD1 was a pro-active system that kept players engaged for the entirety of a map to try and give themselves the best possible chance to beat the map.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You should specify if you're not talking about the PC version of Dungeon Defenders.  The PC version of DD1 was nothing like this!  A) get a jester and put a genie on it B) Max out all towers by end of second wave.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@draemn quote:

You should specify if you're not talking about the PC version of Dungeon Defenders.  The PC version of DD1 was nothing like this!  A) get a jester and put a genie on it B) Max out all towers by end of second wave.

If you had 4 jesters, yeah maybe.  But certainly not solo; took several rounds.  Show me a video.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...