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Vetokend

Extending the progression curve

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Hey folks,

Been a little inactive lately, but I'm curious if there's been any further plans in extending the progression curve by allowing stats to trend slightly upwards.  I thought this was originally the plan for Moonbase, but that plug got pulled at some point.  I'm excited to farm for better gear, and see what new limits we can push with that better gear.

Any info / opinions are greatly welcomed.

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I dont think there will be that much better gear be availiable, jsut because the game is pretty balanced in my opinion and also if they would implement anything above ult++ etc. there would be thousands of hours from many players being wasted. But I think and hope that there will be more content with different new stuff, not much better but very extraordianry and usefull for specific situations.


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Not a definite yes or no on that currently as we are attempting to work on commonly requested changes and fixes at first while bringing some new content.  There are some who would like/love to see higher stats to farm for as this game has quite a few stat hunters for sure.  If that is what the community is wanting, we will take a look to see where it could possibly fit in.  What exactly are you looking to see?

We did bump the stats on the Buc Bay map weapons by a little over most common weapon stats but they are still under Akatiti stats.  We have another discussion going on internally about progression overall so this is something I can make sure is discussed as well.  Not sure how many people would want another tier of armor or not tbh or if just bumping stats a little is good enough for them.

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@ddace quote:

What exactly are you looking to see?

Hey, thanks for the response.

What I really enjoyed about DDE (RIP) was they paid pretty close attention to challenge vs reward.  Maybe not the balance of the reward itself per se, but they made sure that harder content dropped better items.  A new map would come out, and the highest rollable stat would be nudged up a little bit, to match the increased challenge.  I'd like to see us follow a similar pattern.

We don't really need a new tier of equipment to blast the stats out of control, IMO.  We just need to gently trend the stats on the existing tiers upwards.  As you know, the impact of the stats follow an increasingly harsh logarithmic curve.  Allowing them to increase in small increments won't blow the game balance out of proportion right off the bat.

I don't know how the internals work, but I'd expect slightly higher rolls across all tiers when a harder map comes out.  Maybe (on average), a mythical item gets 10 points more to each stat than before, as example.  And maybe in the same example, an ult++ item gets 15 points more than before.  If a tier is strictly defined by its stat caps, then maybe it won't work exactly that way.. but you get the idea.  More challenge, more stats.  Gentle increases, not game-breaking.

I'm definitely among the stat hunters you mention, and without the carrot to chase, I start to lose motivation to conquer the higher maps.  I need that nerdy/"statty" reward to stay happy.

Thanks for the consideration, I hope others see this the same way.

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Thanks for your response.  We definitely prefer keeping things gradual and you are right in that 10 more points in a stat wont actually affect much.

So we have started doing this with the weapons as I mentioned with Buc Bay.  It just is not to Akatiti levels yet.  Is an increase in armor stats what you are looking for more or in both armor and weapons?

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@ddace quote:

Is an increase in armor stats what you are looking for more or in both armor and weapons?

Definitely both, yes.  You might even consider doing a small boost to weapons / little boost to armor in one map, and vice versa in another map, to encourage players to mix it up?  I'd think that across the board though, slightly higher stats across all gear, as a general rule.

It's also a little weird that Akatiti still drops the best stuff, when it's not the hardest map.  But if we trend slightly upwards with each harder map, that inaccuracy will go away anyhow.

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accessories need some love too.  the ones you find while doing levels/survivals are terrible.  not saying lab quality should drop everywhere, but would help progression if they actually made a difference.  

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I think the biggest room for stat improvement is in accessories and armor if we decide to keep raising the limits. As it stands, those are the 2 lowest statted item types. Accessories can barely spawn ult, and armor cannot cap ultimate++. While I do want better accessories I think it is better to not increase the stats on armor, instead it might be better to take a queue from Zamira armor to increase set bonus as to not mess with armor spawns should that be an issue. (Who knows, maybe both)

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Hmm, I don't think Armor needs much work (You could make Mythical armor not so stupid with run speed and casting rate), If the CDT is looking to make changes in the near future, I'd totally be up for a new Armor Quality... I know, i know... not another one. This new (lets call it, Heavenly) armor can only be obtained in Nightmare+ (yeah, new difficulty), It's a lot like Ultimate, but can spawn with better stats and comes with a 50% bonus, and each piece of "Heavenly" armor you wear increases your movement speed by 5%. "Heavenly" armor will NOT spawn with run speed, once you equip 1 piece of this armor, your run speed will be automatically capped.

Acc's need a serious overhaul, I don't like that only a few of the acc's can be capped, most are very low quality compared to Santa hat, beard, and 1 or 2 others, which takes all the variety out, most are running around with the same acc's.

Weapons could use a little boost, especially the Monk weapon stats, The Monk gets the shaft with stats, where as, the Squire weapons come with pretty good stats, good examples: Aka rewards, Sky City, CD.


Ionno, just a few ideas, I'm actually pretty cool with the game as is. The endgame players could use a little more to do, a new difficulty would open up all new possibilities, we could farm classic weapons/pets in higher quality.

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@Hover Tower 2000 quote:

The cruel RNG is DD tho, I hate it, but also love it.

If you start buffing drops across the board then what have we all spent thousands of hours doing... 

It will just give you thousands of more hours to love and hate if it happens.  :)

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Guys, increasing progression curve is always a good idea, usually difficult to make it appropriate, but still this game is heavily based on progression, surely you can go try out new strategies, wear many different accessories to make fashionable stylish heroes, try to achieve as short completion times as possible; but for me and many others most of fun i obtained through the feel of getting my heroes more and more powerful, progression is what i wish more! :D

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@BorchTrzyKawki quote:

Guys, increasing progression curve is always a good idea, usually difficult to make it appropriate, but still this game is heavily based on progression, surely you can go try out new strategies, wear many different accessories to make fashionable stylish heroes, try to achieve as short completion times as possible; but for me and many others most of fun i obtained through the feel of getting my heroes more and more powerful, progression is what i wish more! :D

Agreed.

I can relate to the folks who've spent countless hours getting gear.  Yeah, it was a pretty dedicated grind.  But why'd we do it to begin with?  Because it was fun to grind out and increase our stats.  Thus, I personally don't see anything wrong with extending this.  Why not have more fun?

Plus, if you have high stats to begin with, it'll be easier for you to farm the new maps and get better gear, versus those who don't have high stats to begin with.  This is pretty standard across any progressive RPG that wants to keep people playing - put out better things, give us a new carrot to chase.  I'd love to see this happen.

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I would mainly love to see the challenge catch up the the rewards. Sure stat hunting is fun and all but for me it kinda got to the point of why push for 9k stats when I can do everything so easily with 2-3k stats. There just does not seem to be any kind of point to me to push my builders farther with what is currently availablei feel like we would need a map much harder than moria salvage to make me feel like more than 5k stats are really needed on my builders. 

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the thing with low stats enough to build, comes from the fact that it is the summoner triple dmg bonus on nm, and not scaleable buff beam that just as archers rate capped somewhere around 2k, giving us only increase in dps. these bonuses, and low scalings just make increasing stats not too effective as it was when maps ware built with harpoones only. but thats actually makes me suggest we should therefore get even more easy stat upgrades to actually feel the difference (and challenges that would require that difference). as i quess no one wants here to mess with scalings or bonuses like trendy did in dde.

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Stat creep has happened all through the time Dungeon Defenders has been around. When it first launched and you could only put 70 hero points into a given stat and armors had ups in the 20^ range and weapons about the same. NM became available and mythical quality weapons and armor the stats were night and day higher than when the game originally launched. Then came transcendant, supreme, ultimate (in 3 flavors finally). Each time stats got higher and higher and some chased the ever increasing stats some didn't. Same today, can the game be played and beaten with stat X? Yes it can, but...some people want stat Z.


RNG is already a troll and I'm assuming it will continue to be so. But if a heavenly grade or Ult+++ or whatever armor quality becomes available that adds a few hundred points or gives an additional % bonus or beefed up accessories, who cares. These items will probably be so few and far between it will be quite sometime before people assemble full sets so why not have a newer more elusive item to farm? It is up to the player to either utilize these newer items or not. I prefer to play with higher stats, it is how i have fun with the game. I want a choice, go higher or stay where I'm at. Up up and away I say :) . Is it going to break the game? I say no.


An idea I have had is to increase the level cap. I would like to see lvl 500 personally. With an additional hero point per level to be spent wherever you want so there would be an additional 400 points for you to play with. Nothing huge, won't make a huge difference. But man I would be on a mission to make all 32 lvl 100's into 32 lvl 500's. Bring it!


A new difficulty to stretch the legs of some even higher powered gear would be awesome as well. Probably not required because most likely stats won't get much higher than they are now. 


Tl;dr, let the stats inch higher. Play the game the way you have fun. Use 8k or only hero points it's your choice.

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