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iamisom

Please help us with loot testing! [Update: Loot Test is Live!]

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Good to hear that you think about changing this.

If we can still get the same amounts of gold from selling it will only be good.
Please don't make farming to easy, grinding a lot should still be one of the main reasons to play this game.

If there is any way to participate in testing, please let us know

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I have been thinking about this for a few days now and so this dev post really is perfect timing. Since progressing through Nightmare ranks requires specific builds for characters, Nightmare Mode needs to have a different gear acquisition method. The new system being tested might fix this issue, but it might not. By increasing the quality of drops but reducing their number, theoretically the chance of getting an upgrade stays roughly the same because those two actions have opposing effects. Also, I haven't seen anything about sub-stats, affixes, or bonus stats; the extra stats such as +% to hearty blockade or 5.45% pyromancy. These stats are frequently as or more important than the rest of the items stats. If the item doesn't have frosty power on it for my ice app, I wont use it. Its just that important a stat. 

So here is my idea: Nightmare Mode Gear Tokens. Each map on NM difficulty, and only Nightmare Mode, that you beat will award you a set number of tokens. The harder the map and the higher the Nightmare Mode, the more tokens you get. Then you use these tokens to purchase custom gear from a vendor in the tavern. The player would be able to pick the quality (legendary, mythical, epic, etc.), the stats( both main and secondary), the iLvL ( up to 700, the current max), and the location of the item (weapon, shield, helm, etc.). The iLvL the player chooses would determine the numerical value of the stats, like 400 Defense Power, while the player only chose Defense Power for example. So in short, a player would be able to buy the perfect max iLvL piece of gear for any character for any slot with nightmare Mode Tokens. 

At first this may seem crazy. Like it cuts out the entire point of farming for gear and playing the game. But the balance is in how many tokens are required for that piece of gear. If a player want that perfect upgrade, they might have to farm Nightmare Mode for quite a while, but this would allow them to constantly see the progress they are making. If they know, "That piece of gear I want costs 150 tokens, and I have 140," then they know exactly how close they are to finally getting that upgrade. 

 The entire purpose of this system is to reduce the effects of RNG on the player. I for one, do not like RNG. It feels off or wrong to me. I like to be able to see exactly what sort of progress I am making. I know many gamers are like me in this regard. It is this feeling that keeps traditional leveling systems alive in many RPG's. We like to see a numerical or visual representation of progress. I believe a balanced token system would provide a good mix of RNG and guaranteed reward for a players time and effort. Because the worst feeling in the world is to work really hard at something and at the end of the day have absolutely nothing to show for it. And that is the effect of too much RNG.

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This is a mighty task and I applaud you for taking it on. Thanks for removing the beams on low quality items.

Purge even I have seen drop a number of times on NM3 INC liferoot. not sure if this will help those of you trying to get it but good luck farming! I too spent weeks farming mine. now I have 3. Now to get one that has Defense Power! rather than a stat I don't use on monk. 


I thought it was funny that someone above mentioned that they are boycotting the game until the hero deck is removed (it won't happen so, I am happy that person is enjoying those other free mmo's) Then later said  'runs NM3'. I thought that it might be hard to run NM3 if one boycotts the game. 


I look forward to the loot changes. Good luck! 


I would like to test this out if you are looking for testers. How can I do that?


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guys did you still not get all the input which active dd2 players try to share with you? it's a nice idea to change loot rules and everything. but its avoiding the fix of the ACTUAL problem:

legacy gear

if im not completly wrong, you wiped the progress of player in pre-pre-alpha because of overpowered gear.

after that people leveled further than lvl 25, now lvl 50 was final.

after that you made an item wipe again. why? i dont know, i guess because overpowered, unbalanced items again?

what happened after? all gear was lowered to 250 flat and the stats were also randomized, so items with hearty blockade stats could have ended with blazeballoon or frosty fire/power stats on those.

and now we have the problem:

that gear got overpowered stats for frosty fire and frosty power. today we can only obtain around maximum 10% increase of power on items.

but there are people around who SAVED their first looking unuseful items with frosty power stats because they got a feeling it will be worth keeping them. and they were right.

people who are in contact with those guys are the ONLY ones who are able to finish nightmare 4 + incursion maps actually. 

why?

168~200% more dmg through frosty fire and frosty power equip. (because on this gear its possible to heave like 37% increase on one single item!)

next useless itemwipe? when?

wether you make it possible to let people get this gear again TO finish maps legally without using exploits. or you lower the difficulty of nightmare4 maps and higher.

if you play with guys who setting up "legacy gear frosty towers" even gates of dragon fall incursion feels like playing nightmare 2 or so.

if you try it with newly obtained frosty fire gear with maximum 50% (?) increase on power it feels like a big pain in the ass.

i asked you to fix difficulties 3 times in this forum already.

i thought im just too dumb to play nightmare 4 correctly with my now 6 lvl50 chars, until i spoke with someone who kept his old frosty power equip. ( i sadly sold mine because i thought, with that item power i dont need to continue after nightmare2 like 99% of the people did)

so as long as the 99% people dont have the opportunity to get the same chances as the other 1% its unfair.

and you developer team will not see that those people who just ran through spooky maps on most difficulty like butter wether played with 4 tanks or with one setting up some frosty power towers.

to go back to "your more important" topic:

my advice for loot as a dungeon defenders 1 and 2 fan:

bring out more equip with unique stats which makes new builds possible!

the poison dart tower increase was WAY TO LOW to make it competitve. it looks like old legacy frosty power stats, it looks superior compared to healthy blockade because there u have maximum 5~10% increase or so. and on poison dart tower you have like ~75%. but still not worth using that (im always talking about nightmare 4 end game, not the crap before)

i tried to play with a heavy cannonball squire with stun and increase in range yesterday. not competitve yet to traps.

blazeballoon is only usable for afk builds in onslaught, so maybe bring out items which wether decrease aggro on those towers, or make them cheaper in mana cost (tower limit)  or increase the range like on flamethrower towers, bring out a new stat which will also or even more effect normal towers in damage than only traps or auras which are near chilled enemies (frosty tower working stat)

earth shatter tower should be buffed. whats the use of it? many lanes are grounded so even the modifications for it are not worth setting it somewhere. 

maybe moving walls would be cool. like the summoner class had in dungeon defenders 1

just an ubered version of blockade, so maybe its not hitting enemies anymore(no one needs that bull*** dmg) and therefor you can assign it while being in combat phase so place it on another lane.

modificate antiair tower that it also hits monsters on ground maybe. its expensive so why is it only attacking flying units? 3 hits with big dmg, ok- but air units are usually killed by huntresses

make the training dummy WAY more effective because atm its just a waste of mana to build one of those.

increase dmg or range or remove aggro on those or make it autocharge. you dont have time to even "feed" it with slaps while you are holding two lanes or stunning an ogre meanwhile.

make the buffbanner buff more on expensive upgrades.

bring out new uberspheres to give us more opportunities for setting up modified towers, traps and auras.

like new type of geysire trap maybe. (doing fire dmg now or poison) but make it useful, so long cc or much dmg


no one needs like 500 items in scavenger bag after a map where everyone knows it will be trashed, or sold.

so then make wether items drop less but therefor they have a bigger sell value, or make the items tradable.

and no one wants to see a 699 legendary item with defense power and hero damage on it. its like a slap in his face. or bring out specs where exactly those stats are focussed.

i dont know if i like that there is a possibility of getting loot from other classes if im playing with a specific hero. better to have the possibility to mark as which class im searching items, kinda like the option in world of warcraft where you can now set your loot role. so you can play as a tank or damage dealer but you will get gear for your heal spec.


you always have to decide whats the cheapest/most powerful defense when placing defenses. at the moment its only one kind:

traps. (wether explosive or ubered for magic lanes) no one can compete 20 mana cheap no aggroing defenses. + they are the only ones who get buffed through frosty towers (where i would start scrolling up at the begin of my post)

btw is it on purpose that the magic traps dont really have a footprint? i can place like 4 bound together, only the normal explosive traps have a bigger range around that prevents you from placing them more close together..


PS: one thing for balance:

 2months ago or so? you "FIXED" the one hit killing or destroying of crystals. i can say its still not fixed.

one suicider bomber, one ogre jump, one hit of an orc female and you lost in difficulties above nightmare 3 because your crystal is instantly finished off.


thanks for involving the community!

i like the game this is why im critically or else i wouldnt care and just stop playing it (im aware that we are playing a game which is still under development) :)

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@¹³³7¦fabstr quote:

that gear got overpowered stats for frosty fire and frosty power. today we can only obtain around maximum 10% increase of power on items.

but there are people around who SAVED their first looking unuseful items with frosty power stats because they got a feeling it will be worth keeping them. and they were right.

people who are in contact with those guys are the ONLY ones who are able to finish nightmare 4 + incursion maps actually. 



First off the statement that only people with legacy frosty gear are clearing nm4 incursion is such a streach of the truth. I progressed through all of nm3 and nm4 solo without using any legacy gear and have been farming nm4 incursion for over a month so it is completely possible. Second at nm4 level 99% of legacy frosty gear isn't better than a good set of nm4 frosty so I dont really see a huge problem with it. Yes they got an advantage that helped them progress a little faster than other players but at the end their gear doesnt really hold up anymore. I have yet to see someone with legacy gear have over 2000dp frosty bonus and that number is pretty obtainable with current nm4 gear. 

I'm sure a very select few people could get a really high DP bonus (like 2500+) if they have one piece of armor with a thirty something percentage but the cases are so few Trendy definitely has better things to spend time on right now.





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For what it's worth, I'd like to see build effects less tied to exactly one weapon. 

It's been mentioned in the past by various individuals, so it must be a known issue inside Trendy: the builds are so strong, people are VERY disinclined to to drop a weapon, even when that weapon would be a significant upgrade over the build weapon, if you exclude the build effects.


Purge Evil is a prime example. I have only seen one Purge Evil weapon in the time I've been playing. It's got pretty crappy stats relative to the other polearms I've had drop for me, especially with the changes to weapon attack (all the weapons we had on our toons after the introduction of weapon attack effects rolled zeros... so that was awesome). 

But, as a solo player, Purge Evil is core to my setup right now. And I like the way it works for me. 

So I just can't get an upgraded polearm for the Monk. 


Builds were an interesting addition to the game, but instead of adding variety, it created pigeon-holed gearing. I never used Frost Towers before the build (well, mostly never). Now I can't imagine building without them.  Wall Squire is critical to progressing in NM, so I don't get to use his other towers at all (because my gear is all DH/HH). 


Reiterating what posters above have said - build weapons should be more easily farmable. Not necessarily easy to obtain - you need to be able to clear whatever the challenge is that is needed - but if you can do it, there should be a reasonably well defined path to upgrading the weapons you have as you move up in difficulty. 

Failing that, the build effect needs to have a chance to roll on higher level weapons. 

The Halloween weapons, for example, are useless if you're using the build effects. I can't use the Pumpkin bow if I depend on the poison explode effect. 

I would even be satisfied with a Major/Minor effect. If you get the Malthius staff, you get 400% explode damage, but if you get Purge Evil rolled on a better weapon, it might be a Minor Purge Evil, and only provide a maximum 200%. 


If I'm being perfectly honest, I liked builds best when the first build was uncovered and the staff effect wasn't widespread. You got the damage buff aura from the gear, which was cumulative with the more pieces you had. You didn't NEED the weapon, cause the gear effect was already good. 

The Monk build NEEDS the weapon. Giant serenity auras are useless if you don't have the weapon. 

If this were my game, I would remove the weapon build stat and make the big, bad build effect a scaling part of a build GEAR SET. For every piece of "Karma" gear you have on, Purge Evil increases by 50% of the Monk's DP. You need a minimum of 3 pieces to get Purge Evil to work. If you have 6 pieces of Karma, you get an extra boost. If you don't use 6 pieces, you can have 3 pieces of Karma and 3 pieces of some other build and have both effects, though at the cost of having each effect less effective individually. 

This would let players swap gear out for minor upgrades without having to abandon a build until they found a better item... or force them to use a lesser quality item for a long time (I still have a 35% Frost Power item that's like ilvl 112 or something - I recognize that's a bug, but it illustrates my point).

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@zenthorth quote:

So here is my idea: Nightmare Mode Gear Tokens. Each map on NM difficulty, and only Nightmare Mode, that you beat will award you a set number of tokens. The harder the map and the higher the Nightmare Mode, the more tokens you get. Then you use these tokens to purchase custom gear from a vendor in the tavern. The player would be able to pick the quality (legendary, mythical, epic, etc.), the stats( both main and secondary), the iLvL ( up to 700, the current max), and the location of the item (weapon, shield, helm, etc.). The iLvL the player chooses would determine the numerical value of the stats, like 400 Defense Power, while the player only chose Defense Power for example. So in short, a player would be able to buy the perfect max iLvL piece of gear for any character for any slot with nightmare Mode Tokens.

I definetly agree with this system, what a genius is zenthorth

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Im a fairly new player to dd2, been playing for about 3 weeks now and i would like to help test. Also i see alot of good ideas in this thread.

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In my mind the ideal loot system would work like this.

The loot rate would be pretty low, like maybe 20 itéms pr. map since they take such a short time.

Tho the items being dropped at lower like green, blue etc. should all give stats that the given character used can use,  this in my head is a great idea, and then the epic/legendarys should only drop on rare occasions, tho they should be extremely good, if i get a legendary drop?, i want to feel the joy of it when seeing that its ***ing awesome.. same with epic for that matter, i dont like to find a blue in the map afterwards that is much better than my damn epic :) 


Also, some end game content, bigger maps with more players, raid like stuff with higher rates for legendarys etc. :)  make the end game more large scale so it gets harder, by doing that it can really make a lot of hardcore gamers turn over, because it has a huge challenge when at end game.. 

This is pretty much how i figure it in my head that i would love it, maybe im the only one, maybe not.. You wanted oppinions, and that is all this is :) 


EDIT:


Also in the raids it could be awesome if the levels arent just 7 or something like that, put it at 50, make it take a looong time, make it take strategic thinking, so people who enjoy real hardcore stuff can go play this in endgame, and the people who just like to hang and chillax can go other game modes, still with a little chance of legendary :) 

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I'm interested.   I've emailed for the remote playtest group twice and have yet to receive any response...

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I thin kwhat could be done is to increase the power gap between rarities so  that legendaries do feel like they are really cool and all, lasting trough countless drops, but also make less loot drop and make mythic and legendary  bit more rare. I think Mythic should drop a bit more frequently than legendary does right now, and legendary should drop like 30% less likely than it does now but is more likely to drop from bosses and spacials and cant really drop from simple mobs. Also i'd make loot sell for more to compensate for less overall items picked up, basically make less item drop, so they are more relevant, without changing how much income a player can obtain from a level

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One of reasons I don't play as much anymore is the loot stress.  I feel this change is a perfect step into right direction.  I feel that having a personal bank to use for collecting rare gears would be awesome too, but that's another topic in itself.  I feel that the gold spheres and farming onslaught's 1000+ mob waves will help out in the gold department for those struggling on gold.

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Perhaps another solution to bad loot could be some sort of stat rerolling system that uses increasing amounts of gold to change stats. This would allow players who get mostly good gear (for example defense health and hearty blockades) to spend a large sum of gold to change a stat (and change something like ability power to hero health). The price would increase based on iPWR, gear quality and previous gear rerolls (for example it costs X gold to change a stat but 2X gold to change a second stat on the same gear piece)

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@iamisom quote:

we want to focus on quality loot drops over quantity


Thank you so much for this! 

Currently I'm like 'oh... another drop. ... ... so I have to look through all of it'. In my dreams the game makes me react to loot drops like 'yeah! a loot drop.'

I experiences tons of loot in other games (like Borderlands) and I really disliked that. To be honest I was not expecting this and now I'm really hyped.

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@iamisom quote:

Stats and passives will now roll together in a more intelligent way, which should make finding upgrades easier. 

Will u refund the 100+ hours i lost in nm4 inc to get +5% passive totem with dh + hh instead of hero crit ?

pls contact me at ineedgemsbcsibought2muchbags@gmail.com

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@Colonel Rambo quote:


@iamisom quote:

Stats and passives will now roll together in a more intelligent way, which should make finding upgrades easier. 

Will u refund the 100+ hours i lost in nm4 inc to get +5% passive totem with dh + hh instead of hero crit ?

pls contact me at ineedgemsbcsibought2muchbags@gmail.com

Why would they "refund" you? Also how do you refund time?

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Iamisom,


I've been playing for almost 1000 hours now. I'm enjoying the direction that this is going, however, I'd suggest a few changes if I may, that will serve to mitigate most people's concerns. I'd also like feedback from other people on this:


a) The blacksmith and relic seller are essentially useless. They never sell anything worth buying, it's overpriced and almost always low tier stuff. I propose changing those into something more useful.


We should be able to (either in the form of tokens/gems or a fee that becomes more and more expensive as you keep re-rolling, just like re-rolling pet stats) be able to re-roll stats on armor. If you get a piece that has everything but that one stat you're looking for, and you have enough tokens and gold, why not?


b) If you want the relic trader used more, change him to an overall merchant who sells items that you won't find in maps, but are a lot more expensive, maybe gear that levels with you? Giving you the best possible stats for your build/character until X level, the most expensive pieces dropping off at level 50 or something?


If not, then make him an overall trader that sells high quality loot. Who knows? Maybe that special piece you're after is sitting in his shop?


c) With the difficulty settings... I don't know, I'm used to playing games where 'nightmare' was kind of a difficulty drop off point. If you agree, I suggest changing the difficulties from nightmare I, II, III etc to insane, insane I, II, III. Allowing nightmare to have its throne.


d) Add an option on the item fusing lady to infuse or re-roll the gear affix on a selected piece of gear. A system similar to above might work.


Oh, and make food and current re-roll tokens stackable. We CAN count higher than 9. ;)


Thoughts?

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For the love of god don't pull a DDE and hand out end game loot like candy, this will essentially kill the game.

Just have it so people can gear up, but they still have to put some sort of effort in to get there.


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