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Dark Misery

Love DD2, went back to DD1, BIG MISTAKE!

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Repost from General Discussion. SORRY!

So, I hopped into the DD2 alpha super stoked because I loved DD1 so MUCH! I had fun for the most part, but the experience fell short of my high hopes, and after playing DD1 again the other day, I don't know if I can play DD2 anymore in its current iteration. I'll try to explain why, and see if anyone agrees. *Disclaimer, only a few 50s, only done NM2, nothing higher.*

1. Pigeon-holing of heroes : On DD1, half the fun of many maps was seeing what different setups you could use, having to account for fire-immune, or lightning-immune enemies. Eventually you used auras or traps to remove that affinity, but it gave you an out. I see now you have to have a Wall Squire, Frost App, Trap Huntress, and Ser Monk to get through harder difficulty. No one wants a def power squire, they just need his walls. Not to mention the loss of towers only limits what heroes can do even more. Monks lost the main slow, and Apps got it, just seems weird.

2. I hit NM 1 and saw a 75% magic defense lane. I only had my Apprentice and I really only play alone because I have a baby and may need to step out at any time. I love to solo, and I felt punished that I had no way to deal with this lane. I had to super overcompensate for that lane and farm up gear, while the other 2 lanes I had only normal difficulty with. This seems like a cheap way to inflate difficulty, since if it gets up to 95% or higher (I don't know) then an Apprentice would be worthless for that lane. 

3. Gear : No range or speed stats on gear. Only a few stats worthwhile, Def power, Def health, and def crit/damage. Talk about several steps backwards. The range only makes sense since the maps are roughly half the size or smaller than most DD1 maps, so there is less need to shoot super far (Or there are so many bends in the road that they can't shoot straight). Attack speed was awesome though! I loved watching my ballista shoot every .11 seconds, fire a constant stream, wiping out lines of enemies. Watching a ballista shoot every 3 seconds is SUPER BORING. Why not let us be overpowered? That's what made DD1 fun! We got SOOO strong that enemy scaling had to be huge to deal with us, and we loved it! One screw up and it's over, but we felt powerful. Right now I feel like once lvl 50 I just put more damage on my slow shooting turrets and hope for crit gear.

4. Gear drops : 5+ runs with no def power drops, and hybrid gear sucks. I know there will be a "crafting" system in the future, so I won't harp on this one so much.

5. Money / tokens/pets. Why switch from Mana? 1 currency to track was wayyyy better. Standing at the upgrade guy for an hour trying to drag in items to upgrade is way worse than just clicking to spend your mana. Pets seem lackluster too, in DD1 they could be a HUGE upgrade, especially the kobolds on treadmills, or the Djinns. These pets are stale stat sticks that poke enemies very slightly.

6. Maps : These maps seems a lot more boring, even though they added things like poison roots or fire carts you can trigger. Every mission is basically the same small area. I miss the huge expansive maps like City in the Hills or whatever it was called, the Sky mission, the ramparts, all the giant places with tons of options for dealing with waves.

7. Monks suck : Single shot right click only, step backward. Losing slow aura, step backward. Auras are SUPER TINY, step backward. Half the fun of a monk was placing a giant sphere of slowing and watching them hit it and stop. Giant electric auras ticking at .11 seconds, now they have a tiny little electric aura and a turret that homing shoot air units. I suppose the healing one is better endgame, but having to stand on it permanently to win doesn't seem much fun. 

8. Matchmaking : Right now it sucks, perhaps when the game is finished it will be better, but it's not even almost worth it right now. I understand people may have wanted it, but what's wrong with the old looking through a list of games to join one? Hopefully they gets better, since I feel pressured into playing with others with game design.

9. Should be an ability for people to skip the campaign and power level people. I have a hard time recommending people join to play with me since they have to complete the campaign to even get access to pets, etc. No ability to power lvl people, since xp sucks in everything but free play.


So I probably sound like I'm just whining a lot, and maybe so. I still have high hopes for DD2, but I urge the devs to go back and look at what made DD1 such an amazing game, things like the crazy names of weapons, using a lightsaber or a snowball launcher! Finding new ways to mess around on maps, letting us become near-Gods in game. The game doesn't need to be super serious to be very successful, should be focused on fun. 

Let me know if you guys agree or disagree, but let's keep it pleasant, we're all here to try to make the game we love better! If I got anything wrong please let me know and I'll try to edit.

-Darkmisery

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1. I agree the heroes are currently forced into one build, nothing seems to be any different no matter what map or even difficulty you play on.

2. I don't mind this too much, I can see it's meant to be encouraging teamwork, which is nice in practice but very difficult to make it work, although the hero deck/multiple heroes does compensate and I think without these resistances point 1 would be even more exaggerated!

3. I do agree this was one of the best parts of DD1 the just pure stupidness of the power levelling. when I started and saw these lvX's doing ridiculous amounts of seed/damage etc.. I was encouraged to achieve that, whereas now it's barely evident and you don't get the feeling of all powerful defender. This does give it a slightly different feel, and if I hadn't played DD1 I don't think I'd mind too much.

4. hopefully this will be fixed - lots of differing opinions on this atm

5.I personally like the separate currency as I never liked that in DD1 the currency was tied to how much you build. It didn't feel like that much of a 'Currency' whereas in DD2 it's different and mana is kept to in- mission. The wyvern tokens/gems and stuff I can cope with as I see they're mainly there for paying players and special rewards.

6.agree, hopefully they'll add more larger/differing maps

7. haven't played him yet , so can't comment.

8. Haven't had too many problems with matchmaking, it's not terrible and it's geared towards new players, especially as this is FTP so many people just want to hit play. The option to choose might be nice though.

9. The problems arise if people start skipping the campaign that you get an influx of players that are unsure of how to play going straight into free play, although I do believe it's too long. Perhaps split it into a tutorial/unlock stages (maybe 2-3 maps?) then into advanced campaign missions which are just easier missions for newer players to get the grip of the game.

In all I mostly agree, Personally I like the not super cereal nature of games, especially as a FTP I think this needs to be a core thought process for the Devs as elitism can be a huge problem in getting new players in, especially as the haven't payed for anything so they don't feel like they have lost anything by giving up. not to say it shouldn't be FTP, It's an age of FTP games atm and I don't see too much of a problem with that, hey I'm getting free games, that as long as they are designed well I can have just as much fun as the paying players!

-Caveman Caber

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Atm DD1 has a far deeper level of mechanics. There were more stats alone on characters that you could play with alone that made it far more fun. DD2 has such a limit on stats atm that its either you build DP, DH or  Hero DPS. That doesnt even get into the gear side of things. Gear in DD1 had a multitude of stats to choose from and the mechanics behind each stat really made you ponder for quite a while at which piece would be better. 

Gear levels played a far more significant roll as well. You could find a piece of gear with really good base stats but only 20 levels and then find a so so piece with 300+ levels and suddenly when only upgraded half way it was better than the other one if it was maxed out.

DD1 gave far more choices for customization of characters and build possibilities and thats what made it so much fun. As well as the insanely hard content that was Nightmare Hardcore. NM4 is pretty much a joke compared to NMHC in most cases.

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TBH all of your points have been brought up many times before. I personally agree with most if not all of them. My suspicion is that in virtually every case Trendy has a different perspective ... meaning they think you are wrong. I too had very high hopes for DD2 as I LOVED DD1. With each passing day those hopes are progressively being chipped away. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong. I hope so.

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Excellent post Dark Misery, and I thank you.


I jumped into DD2 with the expectation that it would be a continuation of the features and gameplay that was delivered in DD1 and DDE.  Unfortunately it seems that my expectations were inappropriate.  It is almost as if the game is being developed by a team who never played or fully understood the original versions.

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What does Trendy have to say regarding this?  Was their original design intent to go away from DD1 experience?  

What core features have yet to be added to give us the depth required to get us to DD1 level?  Didn't they say they were going to further expand out weapon customization, hero stats, etc. 

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@JCourtney quote:

What does Trendy have to say regarding this?  Was their original design intent to go away from DD1 experience?  

What core features have yet to be added to give us the depth required to get us to DD1 level?  Didn't they say they were going to further expand out weapon customization, hero stats, etc. 

Here is a wild theory. This is not entirely the same team that designed DD1. DD2 was supposed to be a MOBA. They probably spent a lot of time developing that concept when the community had an uprising with pitchforks. So they changed it back to a TD but have had less total concept dev time and probably wanted to salvage as much of what they already had form the MOBA.

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@Chappyy quote:


@JCourtney quote:

What does Trendy have to say regarding this?  Was their original design intent to go away from DD1 experience?  

What core features have yet to be added to give us the depth required to get us to DD1 level?  Didn't they say they were going to further expand out weapon customization, hero stats, etc. 

Here is a wild theory. This is not entirely the same team that designed DD1. DD2 was supposed to be a MOBA. They probably spent a lot of time developing that concept when the community had an uprising with pitchforks. So they changed it back to a TD but have had less total concept dev time and probably wanted to salvage as much of what they already had form the MOBA.

Didn't Trendy lose half their team awhile back after that whole new article about bad working conditions and one of the co-founders stepping off the project.  I believe somebody said he was one that was responsible for the first game being more hardcore.

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@JCourtney quote:


@Chappyy quote:


@JCourtney quote:

What does Trendy have to say regarding this?  Was their original design intent to go away from DD1 experience?  

What core features have yet to be added to give us the depth required to get us to DD1 level?  Didn't they say they were going to further expand out weapon customization, hero stats, etc. 

Here is a wild theory. This is not entirely the same team that designed DD1. DD2 was supposed to be a MOBA. They probably spent a lot of time developing that concept when the community had an uprising with pitchforks. So they changed it back to a TD but have had less total concept dev time and probably wanted to salvage as much of what they already had form the MOBA.

Didn't Trendy lose half their team awhile back after that whole new article about bad working conditions and one of the co-founders stepping off the project.  I believe somebody said he was one that was responsible for the first game being more hardcore.

 I don't know how many or who they lost. I think it could explain the difference in design concept.

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Thing is, with most of you girls, that you are never satisfied.... and you are mostly focused on what is wrong while missing to enjoy so much great in this game. My suggestion would be to look deeper into yourself and enjoy your uniqueness and share it freely... cause your deepest dissatisfaction is with oneself, since you know that you can do better then you do :D

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Well this is an Alpha game. It doesnt mean it will change mechanics/stats stuff but it surely can if wanted.

I feel this has more of a casual hang than DD1, also if grinding good gear is similarily time consuming.

And if i recall in the beginning of DD1 everyone was just using squire builders because harpoons. Im talking before level cap change and with 4 starting chars. Maybe thats just the way i experienced it. 

So sure now at NM4 you build Hearty/Frosty/Trap/Purge because its probably the most efficient build yet, but i find it challenging to try out new builds that can work in Endgame and tinkering around is pretty fun. There are weapon abilities and Speres that change your Towers and i hope they will add a lot more of those since it makes the game more diverse than just adding more chars or more towers.

Just think of it..   Was DD1 more diverse when it only had 4 chars, before Spider DLC?

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@MamaTata quote:

Thing is, with most of you girls, that you are never satisfied.... and you are mostly focused on what is wrong while missing to enjoy so much great in this game. My suggestion would be to look deeper into yourself and enjoy your uniqueness and share it freely... cause your deepest dissatisfaction is with oneself, since you know that you can do better then you do :D

tumblr_nfmabqLkRG1szaybjo1_500.gif

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@Professor_Valconian quote:


@MamaTata quote:

Thing is, with most of you girls, that you are never satisfied.... and you are mostly focused on what is wrong while missing to enjoy so much great in this game. My suggestion would be to look deeper into yourself and enjoy your uniqueness and share it freely... cause your deepest dissatisfaction is with oneself, since you know that you can do better then you do :D

tumblr_nfmabqLkRG1szaybjo1_500.gif

close to it.... but I'm much thinner :D

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What do people think of this review of DD1.  Considering we all want DD2 more like DD1.  He has some interesting points.  Mostly the 1,000 hours people were putting in farming.  Which apparently was due to broken RNG? 


"No, I would not recommend this game to anyone, for any reason. At the tail end of of almost a thousand hours, and after careful deliberation, I cannot find anything redeeming in Dungeon Defenders. Not its single-player, not it's multi-player, certainly not its Tower Defense, not its loot mechanics, and, most assuredly, not its community. The whole Dungeon Defenders experience, from the first achievement for simply following a tutorial, to the last achievement in killing four giant snowmen and an alcoholic Santa Claus, is garbage. 

Let me get this out of the way – The original thirteen maps of Dungeon Defenders and the original four classes, they're fine. The original, vanilla Dungeon Defenders experience, although simplistic, has a very clear and defined progression. Your four classes – the Apprentice, the Squire, the Huntress, and the Monk – are fairly well balanced for both solo play and multiplayer, and because you can swap characters during maps in solo play, you can make doubly strong defense setups with combinations from those four classes. It is entirely possible, with good tower strategies, to go from the beginning of the game to the end of the game – that is, from Deeper Well to Glitterhelm Caverns - all on the same difficulty with hardly any farming, up to the tail end of Insane difficulty. The original Dungeon Defenders, simplistic it may be, is roughly fifty hours of a tight tower defense experience with a lot of experimentation possible within it.

Enter Nightmare. Enter spiders, enter djinns, and enter sharkens. Which, alright, those aren't bad. These are enemies that are designed to target and disrupt your defenses so that you'd have to reconsider your defense setups. Up to Insane, you weren't really punished for not using all four classes, so Nightmare is the point where the game decides to kick you around a bit and force you to play it better. So, you'll go back and level up a new class to use in conjunction with your usual class and take another crack at it.

So with a format like this, how did this game get screwed so badly?

DLC upon DLC happened, ramping the game's difficulty by numbers up faster than players could keep up with it. You could gotten away with playing with lower stats if it weren't for the Sky City patch that introduced Goblin Copters. Goblin Copters dropping their buffed up Ogres on your defenses alone increased the minimum stat requirements for maps by quite a bit. After that, maps began spamming Ogres ad nauseum just as a difficulty supplement rather than having actual difficulty within the map's designs. Suddenly, people couldn't keep up with the game's difficulty without farming late waves of Survival mode for incrementally better gear. But the random number generator was bugged, so it wasn't giving out progressively stronger gear as often as it should have been. And so, people spent more time farming in the game than they do actually progressing in it. 

Entire class DLCs – The Series EV, the Jester, and the Summoner – were released just to keep the game possible to beat, rather than to supplement the game with new and interesting ways to play it. By the real end of the game, those classes are a requirement to succeed. If you favored the Squire or the Apprentice when you began playing the game, they are going to gather dust in your character roster because the real end of the game doesn't even have actual tower defense in the way that the very first thirteen maps do.

Let's also keep in mind that much of the DLC maps released during and betwixt the Eternia Shards campaign packs were also outsourced to the winners of map contests held by Trendy on their official Dungeon Defenders forums (that unnavigable mess) and other DLCs are very clearly sourced to a different set of developers from the initial game. What this means is that there's a ton of maps in the game that have an inconsistent graphical quality and difficulty – difficulty, by the way, at this point rarely amounts to anything more than using the same three correct classes over and over in the correct spots with no room for experimentation. Then, those maps take anywhere from twenty to forty minutes at a time because of rapidly inflating mob counts per wave.

Look, I get that a difficulty name like “Nightmare” means, okay, the game is going to be hard now, and that naturally does mean you're going to need higher stats to beat older maps, as well as be pretty damn tough in order to meet the requirements of the endgame. That's standard difficulty in game design. And Dungeon Defenders does that! Initially, Nightmare mode challenges your perception of building maps to compensate for spiders dropping in behind your defenses, sharkens who can charge in and completely push them out of the way, and djinns who can just outright destroy them. 

Then, the metagame changes and suddenly the solution is always a line of summons on a buff beam underneath a stack of auras. Every special mob and the threat presents is handled by that solution alone. And with that one-size fits all solution, it becomes the only solution that maps are designed around. Difficulty is reduced to a stat requirement on a board that says, “Here. This is how difficult it is, this is what kind of numbers you need to scrape by on the skin of your teeth with, this is what kind of numbers you need to beat it comfortably and farm it, and this is what kind of super low number you can beat it with to stroke your ePeen.”

But once you get somewhere in Dungeon Defenders, you're stuck there for a while, because the loot is bugged. By a Trendy developer's own admission, the stats on drops are bugged so that they rollover – become worse than they should be when they're spawned – and thus the progression is more restrictive than it was ever intended to be. And indeed, DLC was released to try and get around that too. But DLC can't fix a fundamentally broken game, and in fact, it actually broke it more, because the loot coming out of it was too god, so it came out gimped, per that bug. 

It is actually to the point where, in order to maximize your chances of getting loot that will give you better stats, and thus, help you move forward, an X-Box controller emulator was devised in order to take advantage of splitscreen. This is so you can have four chances at a map's rewards, rather than just the one, for your thirty minute run of what-the-hell-ever map. And I expect that this tool was only ever intended for the obsessive munchkin crowd, but it rapidly turned into a requirement to proceed at all in the game. 

This is not tower defense. This is just farming and reaping the rewards of poor soil.

So, now that you understand what a majority of Dungeon Defenders is, I want you to take a look at the Most Helpful (All Time) reviews here on Steam for this game. Most of them are from people with people whose hours number in the multiple thousands. I hope that at least explaining the arbitrary farming puts into context those hours. 

Dungeon Defenders, even with all its DLC, does not have nearly enough content to justify those lengths of time, or, hell, even my own, and by its own design, it's not a game I could recommend to anyone.

It's a bad game."

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@JCourtney quote:

What do people think of this review of DD1.  Considering we all want DD2 more like DD1.

"No, I would not recommend this game to anyone, for any reason. At the tail end of of almost a thousand hours, and after careful deliberation, I cannot find anything redeeming in Dungeon Defenders. Not its single-player, not it's multi-player, certainly not its Tower Defense, not its loot mechanics, and, most assuredly, not its community. The whole Dungeon Defenders experience, from the first achievement for simply following a tutorial, to the last achievement in killing four giant snowmen and an alcoholic Santa Claus, is garbage. 

Let me get this out of the way – The original thirteen maps of Dungeon Defenders and the original four classes, they're fine. The original, vanilla Dungeon Defenders experience, although simplistic, has a very clear and defined progression. Your four classes – the Apprentice, the Squire, the Huntress, and the Monk – are fairly well balanced for both solo play and multiplayer, and because you can swap characters during maps in solo play, you can make doubly strong defense setups with combinations from those four classes. It is entirely possible, with good tower strategies, to go from the beginning of the game to the end of the game – that is, from Deeper Well to Glitterhelm Caverns - all on the same difficulty with hardly any farming, up to the tail end of Insane difficulty. The original Dungeon Defenders, simplistic it may be, is roughly fifty hours of a tight tower defense experience with a lot of experimentation possible within it.

Enter Nightmare. Enter spiders, enter djinns, and enter sharkens. Which, alright, those aren't bad. These are enemies that are designed to target and disrupt your defenses so that you'd have to reconsider your defense setups. Up to Insane, you weren't really punished for not using all four classes, so Nightmare is the point where the game decides to kick you around a bit and force you to play it better. So, you'll go back and level up a new class to use in conjunction with your usual class and take another crack at it.

So with a format like this, how did this game get screwed so badly?

DLC upon DLC happened, ramping the game's difficulty by numbers up faster than players could keep up with it. You could gotten away with playing with lower stats if it weren't for the Sky City patch that introduced Goblin Copters. Goblin Copters dropping their buffed up Ogres on your defenses alone increased the minimum stat requirements for maps by quite a bit. After that, maps began spamming Ogres ad nauseum just as a difficulty supplement rather than having actual difficulty within the map's designs. Suddenly, people couldn't keep up with the game's difficulty without farming late waves of Survival mode for incrementally better gear. But the random number generator was bugged, so it wasn't giving out progressively stronger gear as often as it should have been. And so, people spent more time farming in the game than they do actually progressing in it. 

Entire class DLCs – The Series EV, the Jester, and the Summoner – were released just to keep the game possible to beat, rather than to supplement the game with new and interesting ways to play it. By the real end of the game, those classes are a requirement to succeed. If you favored the Squire or the Apprentice when you began playing the game, they are going to gather dust in your character roster because the real end of the game doesn't even have actual tower defense in the way that the very first thirteen maps do.

Let's also keep in mind that much of the DLC maps released during and betwixt the Eternia Shards campaign packs were also outsourced to the winners of map contests held by Trendy on their official Dungeon Defenders forums (that unnavigable mess) and other DLCs are very clearly sourced to a different set of developers from the initial game. What this means is that there's a ton of maps in the game that have an inconsistent graphical quality and difficulty – difficulty, by the way, at this point rarely amounts to anything more than using the same three correct classes over and over in the correct spots with no room for experimentation. Then, those maps take anywhere from twenty to forty minutes at a time because of rapidly inflating mob counts per wave.

Look, I get that a difficulty name like “Nightmare” means, okay, the game is going to be hard now, and that naturally does mean you're going to need higher stats to beat older maps, as well as be pretty damn tough in order to meet the requirements of the endgame. That's standard difficulty in game design. And Dungeon Defenders does that! Initially, Nightmare mode challenges your perception of building maps to compensate for spiders dropping in behind your defenses, sharkens who can charge in and completely push them out of the way, and djinns who can just outright destroy them. 

Then, the metagame changes and suddenly the solution is always a line of summons on a buff beam underneath a stack of auras. Every special mob and the threat presents is handled by that solution alone. And with that one-size fits all solution, it becomes the only solution that maps are designed around. Difficulty is reduced to a stat requirement on a board that says, “Here. This is how difficult it is, this is what kind of numbers you need to scrape by on the skin of your teeth with, this is what kind of numbers you need to beat it comfortably and farm it, and this is what kind of super low number you can beat it with to stroke your ePeen.”

But once you get somewhere in Dungeon Defenders, you're stuck there for a while, because the loot is bugged. By a Trendy developer's own admission, the stats on drops are bugged so that they rollover – become worse than they should be when they're spawned – and thus the progression is more restrictive than it was ever intended to be. And indeed, DLC was released to try and get around that too. But DLC can't fix a fundamentally broken game, and in fact, it actually broke it more, because the loot coming out of it was too god, so it came out gimped, per that bug. 

It is actually to the point where, in order to maximize your chances of getting loot that will give you better stats, and thus, help you move forward, an X-Box controller emulator was devised in order to take advantage of splitscreen. This is so you can have four chances at a map's rewards, rather than just the one, for your thirty minute run of what-the-hell-ever map. And I expect that this tool was only ever intended for the obsessive munchkin crowd, but it rapidly turned into a requirement to proceed at all in the game. 

This is not tower defense. This is just farming and reaping the rewards of poor soil.

So, now that you understand what a majority of Dungeon Defenders is, I want you to take a look at the Most Helpful (All Time) reviews here on Steam for this game. Most of them are from people with people whose hours number in the multiple thousands. I hope that at least explaining the arbitrary farming puts into context those hours. 

Dungeon Defenders, even with all its DLC, does not have nearly enough content to justify those lengths of time, or, hell, even my own, and by its own design, it's not a game I could recommend to anyone.

It's a bad game."

I feel like whoever made that review was nothing more than a troll. The few first opening sentences pretty much puts their own foot in their mouth.

"No, I would not recommend this game to anyone, for any reason. At the tail end of of almost a thousand hours, and after careful deliberation, I cannot find anything redeeming in Dungeon Defenders. Not its single-player, not it's multi-player, certainly not its Tower Defense, not its loot mechanics, and, most assuredly, not its community. The whole Dungeon Defenders experience, from the first achievement for simply following a tutorial, to the last achievement in killing four giant snowmen and an alcoholic Santa Claus, is garbage."

No one in their right mind would put a thousand hours into a game if it wasnt fun or if it was garbage.  

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Agreed with Arcflare. There are so many people with well over triple and quadruple digit numbers of play time and that's what's logged on steam I had to play with the gamespy in order to play local lan. I will say this, I can see where the reviewer (is that we are calling this guy?) is coming from in the second half of the review. All of my time on DD1 was overseas could not play online and had to pick and choose my DLC which was mainly Shards and most of the heroes. Have to say one of my all time favorite games right there still. I came back to the US and was introduced to labs, tavern defense, and finally played co-op. After that I can agree with what the reviewer is saying about the loot and endgame. It's kind of like they gave up at the end. BUT I still played and I still loved it. I just didn't play any of the new crazy maps.

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The original DD1 had great progression.
The player-base quickly altered from people who enjoyed playing the game to the hardcore who enjoyed farming, who enjoyed achieving perfection more than actually enjoying the gameplay itself.

They tailored the game to that base because Trendy made terrible balance changes to 'fix' their game, resulting in the power creep it resulted in.
Was it cool that you could literally have a ballista fire so many harpoons that it came out one big, long stick animation-wise?  Sure was.  Magic Missle towers that fired faster than today's machine guns?  Totally sweet.
But was it practical from a gameplay stand point?
Not really.  It detracted from Tower Defense and became about arbitrary math to achieve God-hood. 
Kind of neat.

But, then those people who achieved God-hood complained that content was no longer difficult.  Those hardcore players were the most vocal, and Trendy only listened to them.
People with thousands of hours in the game also spent many, many, many moons AFKing Survival maps because they didn't end 'till you lost.  And with a build timer, you didn't need to be present to play. 
Was that really enjoying all 1,000  thoofse hours? 
I mean, unless you enjoy not playing a game while playing...I'd personally say no.

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After reading this i went back to try DD1 and i agree. DD1 is so much better than DD2. I would say DD2 is at about 5% of what DD1 is.

Ill try to list the things i think DD2 did better though.

#1: Mana chests. No more running around opening all the chests.

#2 Mana character switch. No more dropping all your mana before you swap characters.

#3 Mobile forge. No more having to run back to the forge for every little thing.

#4 Combat flow. Hard to explain but DD2 feels more fluid

#5 Graphics. DD2 has a better zoomed out angle than DD1. I think i like the art style in DD1 better though. The towers etc look really cool in DD1. ( magic missle tower is one of my favorites and its not even in DD2)

#6 online play and item security. Seems more solid and less hacked so far.

#7 spheres. I think they are a cool idea.

I'm sure there are a few more that i cant think of right now. But everything else is pretty much significantly worse. Here are a few examples that stand out.

Gear: super dumbed down to a few stats and super specialized into a few towers = bad

Towers: there are hardly any of them compared to DD1 and even less are usable.

Classes: Same as Towers. Not even the gender swaps are available.

Hero Deck:... yeah... wtf

No Summoner: This one gets its own line cause summoner was by far the best thing about DD1 :D

Maps: Small choke point low DU maps with little build differences.(also due to lack of viable towers)

End Game: DD1 endgame is about getting the crazy achievements and farming specialized items on fun maps (coal/diamonds/pawn shots/special weapons). In DD2 its farming the same map(Nm4 gates inc) over and over for terrible RNG super specialized gear.

Map Settings: Yeah all of this is missing. Build timers, mix mode,hardcore,strategy only, etc etc. Huge part of map replay value just gone.

Depth/Difficulty: Completely missing. No interesting mechanics or enemies just stat point increases.


I think this game has huge potential but i doubt it will be anywhere near DD1 for at least another year or 2.

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This is an awesome conversation. Thank you for keeping it classy, Defenders. 

This entire thread is very in depth. As such I will be pitching it up to one of the Big Brains from Production. I assure you that we take your feedback seriously, and many of the points raised here will be looked at. 

Thank you all again for your feedback!

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Butter, thanks for the comment! It's awesome to let us know that we are being heard, even if they don't agree with us. Our goal I hope is to make this game one that I can sink lots of time into and love just as much as the first one. Thanks again for the update!

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DD2 isn't a bad game.  it's pretty, it has great style.  it has a strong planned out campaign.  the boss fight was OMG


the problem is all of that is tackled pretty quickly then you're dumped into content that pigeonholes you into one viable playstyle that requires you to level and gear 4 characters in order to continue playing.  no game should ever have this requirement.  people should WANT to make and level other characters because they want to experience the game again with a different style of play, but not all of the DD2 characters are solo viable

would you play Diablo3 if in order to tackle master difficulty you had to level 4 characters?  if in order to play at torment you could only have those characters specced and geared ONE specific way?


they need to get their itemization to the point where MANY builds are viable.  and they need to modify their character designs to allow each character to complete the game content on their own without swapping

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@ram1024 quote:

DD2 isn't a bad game.  it's pretty, it has great style.  it has a strong planned out campaign.  the boss fight was OMG


the problem is all of that is tackled pretty quickly then you're dumped into content that pigeonholes you into one viable playstyle that requires you to level and gear 4 characters in order to continue playing.  no game should ever have this requirement.  people should WANT to make and level other characters because they want to experience the game again with a different style of play, but not all of the DD2 characters are solo viable

would you play Diablo3 if in order to tackle master difficulty you had to level 4 characters?  if in order to play at torment you could only have those characters specced and geared ONE specific way?


they need to get their itemization to the point where MANY builds are viable.  and they need to modify their character designs to allow each character to complete the game content on their own without swapping

Only need 4 to solo...  It's a multiplayer coop game. 

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if it were a multiplayer co-op game there would be no option to solo

it is a solo game with the option to play multiplayer co-op


again, no one would play diablo3 if leveling and gearing 4 characters was a requirement.  there's no other multiplayer co-op game that requires you to level and gear 4 characters...

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