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thepenguinwelder

Controversial - Is player input going to ruin the game?

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@Some random guy quote:

There was supposed to be something about "crafting" which we had a vote long ago and we could readjust gear stats or something.

That vote was like 6 months ago, where the hell is it???

I assume they will implement it after they have improved the loot issues.

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We don't know exactly how much of our feedback is being taken into consideration. When I become a councilor a year ago, I was having private conversations with Iamisom over Playerverse, and most of the threads in the councilor sections had dev/player interaction. Now, the forums seem deserted in regards to dev activity. I have a very thorough thread of bugs that I took the time to find, record, and report, along with several suggestions in the "Suggestions" sub-forum. No dev responses. Not just on my threads, but almost none of the "suggestions" have any response at all.  (To be fair, I just created the suggestion threads this morning, so not much time for dev feedback or even player feedback)

However, I don't wish to come across the wrong way. I'm not saying that the game should be changed to our liking, and I'm not saying that the devs are ignoring all feedback. This is a complex topic, and it's multi-faceted. 

To me, the reality is that most feedback now a days has devolved to repetition. Everyone wants;

- Hero deck removal
- To be able to solo NM4
- General balance perfection (spheres, hero stats, gear, etc. Guys.. its alpha)

There's very little discussion on core gameplay mechanics, the philosophies behind them, the differences therein in relationship to DD1, etc. Was it a good idea to switch from single elemental resits to general magic resist? From single elemental damage to general magic damage? From evenly dispersed enemies per entrance to the at-random-super-entrance model? Should heroes have mixed damage tower kits (some magic, some physical), or specialized tower kits? Do we want heroes to be able to solo, or do we want a heavy push towards co-op? Should there be a cap on hero stats to enforce 'jack of all trades' heroes, or should we stick to the specialized style of DD1? If no cap, how do we construct the leveling math so that specializing feels rewarding without being overpowered?

Just an assumption, but I believe this is the kind of stuff devs want to hear about. Not another hero deck thread. Not another balance thread. Not another shard thread.

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To me, the reality is that most feedback now a days has devolved to repetition. Everyone wants;

Hardcore players want; not everyone.


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@Alhanalem quote:
To me, the reality is that most feedback now a days has devolved to repetition. Everyone wants;

Hardcore players want; not everyone.


The things that I listed are the most popular topics in these forums by a landslide. I don't know how you define hardcore, but I'd say most who know about this site, create an account, and post frequently are 'hardcore' about DD.

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@Aheadatime quote:


@Alhanalem quote:
To me, the reality is that most feedback now a days has devolved to repetition. Everyone wants;

Hardcore players want; not everyone.


The things that I listed are the most popular topics in these forums by a landslide. I don't know how you define hardcore, but I'd say most who know about this site, create an account, and post frequently are 'hardcore' about DD.

Trendy conducted a player survey, which Josh Isom talked about at length here. .This survey included players of all skill levels and in particular a lot of people who never post on teh forums. The result of that survey was that most people thought the hero deck was okay and most thought some things needed tweaking, but that it shouldn't be removed.

In general terms, the forums tend to represetnt the hardcore community much more than the not-so-hardcore community. Additionally, people that are not unhappy with the state of something generally don't start threads to declare that. The number one reason anyone comes to a internet forum of any kind is to complain. (Sad, but true).

You're exactly right that most people who come here to post are probably in the hardcore category. However, the forums represent a very small portion of the total playerbase, and hardcore players represent a very small portion of the total playerbase in just about every game. Thus the forums are not really that representative of the community as a whole. One challenge faced by any community manager in the games industry is trying to find ways to change that.


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@Alhanalem quote:


@Aheadatime quote:


@Alhanalem quote:
To me, the reality is that most feedback now a days has devolved to repetition. Everyone wants;

Hardcore players want; not everyone.


The things that I listed are the most popular topics in these forums by a landslide. I don't know how you define hardcore, but I'd say most who know about this site, create an account, and post frequently are 'hardcore' about DD.

Trendy conducted a player survey, which Josh Isom talked about at length here. .This survey included players of all skill levels and in particular a lot of people who never post on teh forums. The result of that survey was that most people thought the hero deck was okay and most thought some things needed tweaking, but that it shouldn't be removed.

In general terms, the forums tend to represetnt the hardcore community much more than the not-so-hardcore community. Additionally, people that are not unhappy with the state of something generally don't start threads to declare that. The number one reason anyone comes to a internet forum of any kind is to complain. (Sad, but true).

You're exactly right that most people who come here to post are probably in the hardcore category. However, the forums represent a very small portion of the total playerbase, and hardcore players represent a very small portion of the total playerbase in just about every game. Thus the forums are not really that representative of the community as a whole. One challenge faced by any community manager in the games industry is trying to find ways to change that.


Yes I agree with everything you've said, and my previous points do not clash with your post. My points were aimed at the title of this thread. Given that I don't see as much dev interaction as I did a year ago, and given that this forum is the vocal minority, I do not believe that our input is deteriorating this game. I believe that the devs have a vision for this game, and whether or not it ends up better/worse/more popular/less popular/more revenue/less revenue will not be dependent on our input, but rather on TE's creative talent and vision, given the aforementioned points.

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I did a year ago, and given that this forum is the vocal minority, I do not believe that our input is deteriorating this game.

I don't think  it is either. There is possibly such a thing as listening too much (to the point that one's own creative vision is lost), but I don't think that line is in any danger of being crossed, personally.


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They know the goal of the game, but player feedback like making the game better for the majority, will be better for the game it's self. The community feedback has been good so far.

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Thanks for your input Aheadatime.


You think if the standard or focus of feedback "improved" the devs would pay more attention, yet a very thorough bug report thread received no love.


Your posts certainly make me think that player feedback stands little chance of doing much damage, but like politicians, will they spend their time pandering to the repeated nonsense requests, rather than getting the job done?

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It seems like Trendy already has a pretty clear vision of where they want to go. The game has a better chance of success because they have an open line of communication with the players. This doesn't mean they will bend over backwards to accommodate every player in game, but they are willing to take a step back and make observations based on feedback.


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I wouldn't worry to much, when DD1 originally released i was farming the best gear within a couple of days, trying to get those 20 upgrade pristines in glitterhelm! :o


DD2 doesn't have a lot of content yet, I'm sure it'll get better with time just like DD1 this, this time hopefully better with all the lessons learned from DD1.

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Some people dont have the time to pour into the game that others do. And lots of crappy loot sucks compared to less loot that is better so we dont have to spend as long grinding and digging through our bags to figure out what to keep.

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@thepenguinwelder quote:

1. You think if the standard or focus of feedback "improved" the devs would pay more attention, yet a very thorough bug report thread received no love.

2. Your posts certainly make me think that player feedback stands little chance of doing much damage, but like politicians, will they spend their time pandering to the repeated nonsense requests, rather than getting the job done?


Your welcome for the feedback. I always enjoy a good discussion.

1. Yes, I believe that the devs are paying less attention than they had been a year ago or so due to the nature of F2P model. Now there's exponentially more people to please, exponentially more bad ideas, and it has become exponentially harder to have a meaningful discussion on finer details. Improving the feedback is not possible. There are too many people with ideas of their own (however many times they've been suggested in the past), and it would be impossible to dictate the quality or thoughtfulness of their posts. Thus, here we are. 

2. I'm not sure if the devs are building this game based on our feedback or not. I can certainly tell that they are very clearly building this game around a different audience this time around, but I haven't seen any of the changes that lead me to this belief having been suggested by anyone here in the forums. This tells me that they're making these choices internally, which loops back to point number one. Perhaps our feedback isn't that well thought-out or meaningful, or perhaps TE just had an idea of how this game should play out and they're not interested in drastically changing that vision at the moment.

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In short no, because player input has never ruined a game.

Player input can certainly offer a fresh perspective, that isn't always good nor is it always bad. It is up to the developer to decide how or if they ever act on that input.

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@thepenguinwelder quote:

My point is, without our influence DD1 was great. My fear is that with our influence, DD2 may not be. 

I almost feel like it's the opposite. It feels like they're doing their best to avoid making this a rehash/rerelease of DD1, which in fact the fans want a lot of things we had in DD1. They're afraid to just reuse what works, and in trying to recreate the wheel have created a more shallow game with less depth.

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@Ajido quote:


@thepenguinwelder quote:

My point is, without our influence DD1 was great. My fear is that with our influence, DD2 may not be. 

I almost feel like it's the opposite. It feels like they're doing their best to avoid making this a rehash/rerelease of DD1, which in fact the fans want a lot of things we had in DD1. They're afraid to just reuse what works, and in trying to recreate the wheel have created a more shallow game with less depth.

Yeah this is my current thought process as well. They've moved away from a lot of things that made DD1 great. Generally, game studios want to add new features when creating a sequel to keep things fresh, which is natural. History shows, though, that when a studio changes too much too fast, it loses it's fanbase. This was most apparent for me in the Halo series. After 3, they changed the mechanics of the game too drastically while removing too many old features and adding in too many new ones. The games popularity steadily decreased over time at a much faster rate than any previous title.

The thing with DD2 is that it's free to play. Getting a bunch of people to pick it up and try it out isn't good enough in terms of economics. WIth a F2P model, you have to have a seriously foundationally sound game so that the players play the game long enough to want to buy all the smaller stuff. 

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@Aheadatime quote:


The thing with DD2 is that it's free to play. Getting a bunch of people to pick it up and try it out isn't good enough in terms of economics. WIth a F2P model, you have to have a seriously foundationally sound game so that the players play the game long enough to want to buy all the smaller stuff. 

Very good point and spot on. 

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I'll make this short and sweet, a long time ago I was in a closed beta for a game called apb (now known as apb reloaded) The complaining and whining on their beta forums over every little detail and their attempts to fix it literally broke the game.

By the end an ak47 was completely useless at even point break range (nerfed to hell because everyone complained about being killed by it) while a crappy pistol ( the weakest weapon that no one complained about being overpowered) by the end was only second to a grenade launcher.


By the end of that beta, the game was broken. The Devs really did their best to try and listen to everyone, but they had a very poor pool of immature people playing that did nothing but complain about every single aspect of the game and never focused on any of the good. Eventually the entire game was scrapped and had to be completely remade in a separate incarnation that I've never played.


The community can ruin a game and development is a much harder job than most people give credit. What I think is endangering this game right now is not in game bugs, but the monetary model they are using. I think they should look to games like Warframe which is a successful and profitable free 2 play with in game currency for what they should be doing there.

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The playerbase is quite small and will keep going down during xmas sales. There was as many people during some periods of the closed alpha, yeh the game had a big spike upwards when it went f2p but it didn't hold.

http://steamcharts.com/app/236110

This game has been worked on for 3 years. Look at how little has been done since it was a co-op and moba game. They switched to co-op only and have done very little gameplay wise, graphics have improved big time but i prefer gameplay over graphics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92r8dGBNqeg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LbMSuUD14I

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Here's my view on this game from an observer stand point.


The majority of the playerbase can't get into nm4. ---- It isn't hard.


The majority of the playerbase complains about stupid things like deck slots and inventory bags. ---- A simple addition of quantity would solve this but what do they want instead? more bags and hero deck removal when plans of adding slot bonuses on certain hero deck slots are in development or planning stage.


The majority of the playerbase thinks anyone that doesn't agree with them is toxic. ----- Reality check, they're the only toxic one slowly destroying a good game.

The way i see it, we have to accommodate the "majority" of the playerbase due to their learning disability. Because those players tend to be the one to throw money at things to get better or have an "edge" such as more inventory space. Check out the new pack for an example. 

EDIT: The point im trying to make is that WANTING a challenging game when the majority wants an easy game is stupid. Keep quiet and let them destroy the game. Nothing you can say or do will change it. A new game will come out eventually.

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Here's my view from an observer standpoint.

The people complaining about the hero deck and bag space have every right to; The developers are by no means obligated to do anything about it, especially if they're planning to add more slots or fix it anyways. However being a little more open about decisions, some of them, would help ease players minds. As well, it's usually not so much a complaint about bag space as a specific set of things being purchasable with cash only, when gem buyers were led to believe gems would be good for all things.

The people complaining about other players voicing their opinions are themselves toxic. The point of the forums is to show the developers current opinion, and provide a guide for future decisions which may or may not be listened to; however listening is usually a good idea, with a grain of salt at times. Considering that, threads complaining about others having complaints is both hypocrisy and destructive to the forums themselves. What use would such a post or thread be, except as counter intuitive flame bait?

I've also noticed a trend where the same people also call everyone else not agreeing with them that there should be no talking, sink to calling everyone else stupid. It's interesting that those who see themselves as the single sparks of hope, intelligence, and light would sit posting how stupid everyone else is in a forum they dislike intensely, as if that would help anything at all.

The way I see it, without complaints, they wouldn't have had even the starting amount of bag space that we have now; which is comfortable to most players. We wouldn't have many people saying 'I can work with this', considering how short space was in beta. We don't have to accommodate those who flame in forums though. We can simply ignore them if they rant or go off discussion.

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