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thepenguinwelder

Controversial - Is player input going to ruin the game?

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I have 1250 hours in DD1, 200 in DDE and 120 in DD2. I fear that some of the player suggestions are going to detract from the work of art this game could become.


I understand that this game was built on the influence system, but some of the ideas given by the player base may end up destroying the fun of the game, (for me / for others)?


I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about this, but a couple of recent "successes" of public opinion seem to be negative to the long term enjoyment of the game. I'll give examples. The difficulty of the monthly quest being halved, (I know there were other reasons for this), and the proposed changes to making loot drops less random and therefore better quality.


There is no way I would have played DD1 for so long without friends to play with and a reason to keep grinding the same levels looking for that improved helmet. Of course I want to find that pair of gloves with hearty blockade and automation, but do I want them to fall in my lap? I don't think I do.


As I said, I haven't given this much thought yet, but am interested in hearing the thoughts of other players or the devs. DD1 was a terrific base game and DDE was created after a great deal of feedback.


Thanks all for a great community and game so far, and Penguin pet FTW!

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I think the question is how can we get DD2 to be as fun as DD1.  It doesn't matter what happens going forward, because everyone is basing the game off of their 500+ hour DD1 experience. 

We need this game to have more depth and strategy, than it currently has.  We need bigger maps, more complex maps, we need new mob types.  

I know their working on the loot right now, but we need to get this game to require more than just throw up some walls, put crap behind it.  

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The issue is DD2 is already in a base playable form and it's already not up to par with DD1.   I wouldn't buy too much into the influence thing.  They still end up going in whatever direction they want to take it anyway.  

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They need to bring back the mechanics of DD1 and improve on them. Look at the stat system for example. There is such a broader stat system in DD1 and it makes it feel like DD2 is dumbed down version of it. 

DD1 has stats like projectiles, projectile speed, projectile damage, hero ability+, hero run speed, tower range and speed, individual resistances etc. 

In DD2 all we have is a few basic stats and 2 tower stats being range and speed being locked by only being able to increase them by spending points on them. Also resistances were just changed to physical and magical defense on gear. 

DD1 had a much better customization when it came to building heroes the way you wanted. Pretty much every stat could drop on any piece of gear and the stats on gear was pretty random but the scaling of gear was always way broader than it is now in DD2. 

DD1 had a far far more unique weapon system. Weapons stat scaling on endgame weapons blew my mind at times because of how crazy some weapons got. You could find a fairly weak weapon and then realize it had 300+ levels you could pump into it and it would turn out stronger than a weapon that you could find later with a higher base across all stats with only 50 levels on it. This doesnt even factor in projectiles or projectile speeds and all the different stats you could get on weapons.

Finding loot in general was just much more fun because you never knew what you were going to find and the stat system allowed for far more unique and fun off the wall builds across every map.

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All honesty when I heard about the fresh crew working on DD2 I was pumped. When my kid said f2p will ruin this game, I defended it. Now almost one year of playing DD2 my kid no longer plays, and I feel like my kid might be right. The op doesn't need to worry because our input isn't as impactful as you would think. 

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@Chappyy quote:

All honesty when I heard about the fresh crew working on DD2 I was pumped. When my kid said f2p will ruin this game, I defended it. Now almost one year of playing DD2 my kid no longer plays, and I feel like my kid might be right. The op doesn't need to worry because our input isn't as impactful as you would think. 

This post makes me think of a Metallica song ... Sad But True.

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Well, if gear was made more quality, obviously it would need to be rarer to compensate. Which is a good thing. Think of it as the same time spent, only with less time spent throwing away garbage drops. Also getting to be excited when you see rare drops again. Like in DD1. OMG something ++! Etc. I just want orange gear to be appropriately legendary, not often garbage like everything else can be :p. Secondaries and the passives really need to be tied together more. At least on legendary.

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@Arcflare quote:

DD1 had a far far more unique weapon system. Weapons stat scaling on endgame weapons blew my mind at times because of how crazy some weapons got. You could find a fairly weak weapon and then realize it had 300+ levels you could pump into it and it would turn out stronger than a weapon that you could find later with a higher base across all stats with only 50 levels on it. This doesnt even factor in projectiles or projectile speeds and all the different stats you could get on weapons.

This plz. Make the weapon enchanting process more meaningful!!! Not just "Make all your gear 10-15% better by pumping 2,000,000 gold into it."

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Also, it seems like the devs dig their heels in sometimes if player view is too different from theirs.

Examples being:

The extra large vote they did for several things at once, which by the end of it, we learned among other things, that they decided to order it anyways 'taking into account what we voted', what order they'd implement all of it, but also factoring in ease of programming it in. Which basically meant... mostly what they were gonna do anyway, they would do, unless it also got like as close to 0 votes as possible.

Also when they did examples, one of the top 3-5? ideas was adding a new, non human hero. One guy was assigned to do it who, thrown in middle end of stream, drunkenly threw down a barely worked on example of what it would be like, then when queried on it, he dismissively said he deleted all of it already. And it STILL looked like it would have made a pretty great addition, and better than many things they showed, in that condition. It got super swept under the rug and very little respect as an idea though, considering what happened. Seriously, look that one up. Fighting as a mini betsy wyvern would have added a lot of fun to dps.

*cough* The Deck that Must not be Named *cough*

Many of the dd1 improvements they started with, which eventually needed to be redone completely. Several were great, don't get me wrong, but others were not so much.

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I often feel that I am in the quiet majority around here.  I like the game.  I don't play public a lot, because the kick mechanics are not good and you know... people.

I played well over 2500 hours of DD1 and then another 300+ on DDE.  I am glad this game is different.  DDE is very similar to DD1, but too easy.  I also play 2500 hours of the first and want to move on ;-)

There seems to be a lot of long term memory issues with DD1.  It changed a lot since it was first created.  It rolled out with like 13 maps, there was no NM at all, and the gear all sucked or so it seemed.  Every change on the way to becoming the final version of DD1 was tough.  Each change broke some balance and the maps had to get progressively harder to account for the ever improving gear.

Finding the best gear in game was a huge slog until Lab Runs made Ultimate gear easy to get.  Before that, I knew a lot of people that had traded their way to maxed out Ult sets, but not a lot who had actually found a full awesome set. 

The DD1 community was pretty good at letting the developers know when things fell out of balance.  This community can be supportive and constructive or it can be like the DDE community.  I for one trust the developers and feel that I have already gotten my early access moneys worth out of it.  I say to them, "Make a great game, surprise me with awesome".

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Thanks defenders. A good start to the conversation.


Well, at least those who actually contributed to it. The irony is that half these posts are suggestions. (Which there is another area for).


What this does show is that as players, we are passionate about this game and want it to be great. So much so, that we can't help voicing our opinions, even in a thread about not voicing our opinions.


I am pleased that there are examples of the devs powering through with their own vision. If Van Gogh had listened to public opinion, we would have lost his work. On the other hand, (and I hesitate to use this example, but so few games are made by two developers), Call of Duty seems better when made by Treyarch, the company that listens to the players and has a visible public relations representative.


I guess my question is now morphing into, do we know what we want?


To mention a couple of posts from above, I agree with zim. I loved DD1, but also want to move on. I too put many hours in and don't want to just keep playing the same game.


Ninja-kero, I am confident that many lessons were learnt from DD1, especially in regards to adding content to the base game. This seems evident from conversations on the dev stream. (Thanks for the reply).


Chappyy, I have had similar thoughts regarding f2p. I guess when I said "I fear", I may have been overstating. This thread was for me to get a take on others opinions. Thanks.


Thank you all for continuing this thought. I appreciate your points of view.

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In DD2 all we have is a few basic stats and 2 tower stats being range and speed being locked by only being able to increase them by spending points on them. Also resistances were just changed to physical and magical defense on gear. 

Range and Speed were constrained because those stats in large part eventually broke the gameplay of DD1. (To be fair, it ended up being fun in part BECAUSE of how busted it was :D ) As far as number of uniqe stats go though, DD2 has more of them than DD1, having added hero crit dmg and rate, and tower crit dmg and rate, and a slew of unique passive effects. in DD1, all you had was the 8 core stats (I'm going to ignore individual resistances because you could just cap them all easily anyway). There were no special effects on gear, other than a bonus to total stats for having all your gear be the same type.

I find DD1 and DD2 to both be fun for different reasons. DD1 has a high excitement factor from its colorful, spammy, fast-action goodness. DD2 on the other hand takes a more measured approach, and I feel like min-maxing your heroes is more challenging from the variety of passive effects. I feel like as far as loot goes, there's a greater variety of potentially useful items because of the passive effects in DD2, so the loot itself is more fun. There's pros and cons to each. But that's what happens when the two games are made so differently and with different pholosophies. I kind of think it's better that way though.

Disclaimer, this is totally a personal opinion piece, just mine and not anybody else's.  :)

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3k+ hours here in DD1.

DD1 is superior to DD2 just because DD2 isn't ready to be compared to DD1 just yet. It's still in alpha and missing alot of content.

DD1 had several new classes, a ton of maps, weapons, pets and a whole plethora of things to explore.

DD2 has the Hero Deck.

So yeah no contest.

DDE is a very good example of how not to listen to the casuals.

It started well, with a new boss, pet abilities and some other cool stuff.

Then people complained getting loot was too hard and what happened? they gave out a new set of armor used specifically for tower and DPS characters and boy did that kill that game off.

All the challenge was taken away. Nightmare was made into a joke and was a former shadow of itself.

If you want true NM mode DD1 has it.

I remember in DD1 NM palantir Ogre's having over 200 million health and the Blinged out Demon lord having a couple billion of health and what did they do? they listened to the cry babies that want everything handed to them and nerfed there health significantly.

The same was done with Spiders, Djinn, Sharken and Goblin Copters. In their original release they were  challenge, after that they nerfed them for the masses.


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It seems like my post went over some peoples heads. 

First of all im not asking for it to be the same as DD1. Everything i mentioned in my previous post were things thats made the game mechanically great. Im asking for a deeper level of mechanics. Right now DD2 is very straight forward. It's in alpha and i understand that but i wouldnt be bringing this up if a dev said they had plans on changing the current systems. 

DD1's mechanics should be the basis of what DD2's should be but DD2 should be taking them further, more interactive and more customizable to a persons wants or needs. DD1 mechanically is college level while DD2's current is elementary and very casual. 

Dungeon Defenders is not a casuals game. Even the current loot systems "extreme RNG" is childs play  compared to what DD1's was. A lot of people are asking it to be  dumbed down even further and the devs are trying to make it so stat sets drops together and here i am asking for far more stats to be thrown onto gear like DD1's was for deeper levels of build possibilities.


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Yes.  We need more depth in every aspect of the game.  They can tighten up the loot some, but still add in more variance to keep the min/max grind.  



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"ruin the game" is an opinion.  if they're continually following what the majority of the players want then by popular opinion the game is BETTER by definition.  not ruined

the problem is the majority of PLAYERS are not GAME DESIGNERS.  so it's very possible giving these people a vote WILL make the game worse

it's up to the game devs to realize this truth and ultimately make their own decisions to steer the game.  thus far they haven't given and really impactful decisions over to the community to steer

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Hi, casual DD1, DDE, and now DD2 player here.  DD2 has so much potential, but seems lacking in some key areas. 

1.  Tiers of enemies.        The 3-tierH


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DD1 really got me... and sometimes, when I did not feel like farming, I just browsed the server list and looked for games named like 'need help'. When we were in need of help, we were glad if people helped us - and it also was quite nice the other way round. That was pretty comfortable at DD1.

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The only thing that is going doom DD2 is if they keep the casual focus.  We need complex mechanics, loot variance, etc to keep the game alive.  

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DDE is a very good example of how not to listen to the casuals.

It started well, with a new boss, pet abilities and some other cool stuff.

Then people complained getting loot was too hard and what happened? they gave out a new set of armor used specifically for tower and DPS characters and boy did that kill that game off.

This varies a lot depending on who you talk to but I don't think those special sets had anything to do with DDE's problems. The crux of the problem was really simply the game kind of failing to deliver on its claim of the "definitive" experience, when you consider that a significant number of DD1 maps were omitted from DDE. Almost every complaint I ended up reading had some mention of the word "definitive" in it. :p

Having said that, I feel like they've learned lessons from that experience, which is why we now have things like greater community involvement in DD2's progress and the community dev team in DD1.

(crap forum software being crap, I can't get a quote box around the below text)
"Dungeon Defenders is not a casuals game. Even the current loot systems "extreme RNG" is childs play  compared to what DD1's was. A lot of people are asking it to be  dumbed down even further and the devs are trying to make it so stat sets drops together and here i am asking for far more stats to be thrown onto gear like DD1's was for deeper levels of build possibilities."

So having less than the most abysmal drop rates of usable items is "dumbing down" the game? I'm still confused by your comment as DD2 has tons of stats. It has more stats than DD1- it just doesn't have nearly every single one on a single piece of gear. If anything, gearing and statting your character is more complex now than it was in DD1. I wouldn't call it dumbed down at all - it's just different. There are tons of passive attribute combinations- I'm not seeing this lack of gear variance.

I'm not sure what the difference is between having a lot of a few stats on each item vs having a smaller amount of many stats on an item.
Note: Hypothetical numbers ahead.
DD2's system is like instead of having 10 of almost every stat on an item, you have like 40 of a couple stats. Then another item migh have 40 of a couple different stats. In the end, the overall impact on your character is similar- it's simply structure differently. Note that this completely ignores the passives, which are a pretty significant part of your gear.

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@Alhanalem quote:

DDE is a very good example of how not to listen to the casuals.

It started well, with a new boss, pet abilities and some other cool stuff.

Then people complained getting loot was too hard and what happened? they gave out a new set of armor used specifically for tower and DPS characters and boy did that kill that game off.

This varies a lot depending on who you talk to but I don't think those special sets had anything to do with DDE's problems. The crux of the problem was really simply the game kind of failing to deliver on its claim of the "definitive" experience, when you consider that a significant number of DD1 maps were omitted from DDE. Almost every complaint I ended up reading had some mention of the word "definitive" in it. :p

Having said that, I feel like they've learned lessons from that experience, which is why we now have things like greater community involvement in DD2's progress and the community dev team in DD1.

Well I know I stopped playing it when the challenge was gone from NM and top end game loot was given out like candy.

I was so disappointed in NM mode as well. Enemies were just so much weaker.



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There was supposed to be something about "crafting" which we had a vote long ago and we could readjust gear stats or something.

That vote was like 6 months ago, where the hell is it???

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