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Stop complaining about the hero deck.


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@dreamanime quote:


@Eat your Donut quote:

80k walls get wrecked by kobolds in no time....4 kobolds if I'm not mistaken...

You are totaly right on that, don't deny it. That's why you need to stop them before they reach it. But what do i know right? I am probably just a new lvl 50 who didn't played much at all. Not that this is possible at all right?

Just admit you lied and apologize for that already.

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@Eat your Donut quote:

You just lost the little credibility you still had with this post....Keep doing nm4 inc with 80k walls.


 I think devs are making a mistake if they keep HD this way. I will keep playing because I am an unconditional fan and I will support devs (financially with dlc's and stuff) but I will always give my opinion. I like challenges but some limitations that are currently imposed feel like they should not be there. HD is one of them. DEVS of DD2 let us be creative :D!!!

It's a fact tho and has not much to do with credibility. You can read it up in the forum and see for yourself.

I do give you a + for your mindset and opinion tho =). And don't just read half stuff. Ain't my walls which are so low, i have 340k walls too. I just don't like to take my waller with me in free play, simple because i think that walls are the most neclectable factor in a defense, regarding the most common thought that they are the most important one. I just wanted to show that it is possible even with low walls. Obviously you need player who do repair and not afk. And who do focus stuff like witherbeasts and keep monster ccd. Or know at last what to do, or else it will go down the hills. But plainly saying it is impossible just because they have low health is an assumption.

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@T.G.B. quote:

KnowsNoLimits

You like repairing?

Now I know you are full of it.

I bought Dungeon Defenders 2, not Defend and Repair that you don't have a moments rest. If you think that's fun then I pity you.


Are you SERIOUS right now, dude??? You're actually trying to call me out on this???


Yes!! I like repairing!! It is a whole other skill for me to test and improve upon!! (As I've already said.)

I never feel bogged down by it. It's fun to multi-task on such a level, and to juggle all of these things I'm supposed to be doing.

You pity me for craving challenge?? This is seriously your official position??


Try thinking it's a skill to harness and perfect when 3 of your walls are getting hammered in solo NM4 incursion and you can only repair one at a time, mean while you have Witherbeasts, Drakins and Javelin throwers in the back ground just decaying your defenses even more.

This sounds like FUN, dude!! You can cancel repairs, by the way. This is where it gets really intricate of a skill! You have to juggle the repairing very efficiently, using proper prioritization and execution, all the while DPS'ing and eliminating the threats!!


You didn't play DD1, did you?? You think you're talking about difficulties I know nothing about. I'd love to hear your complaints about DD1's warrior.png Dark Elf assassins - which could either be hero assassins, or tower assassins. While I come from a world where I have to repair *** with them running around, you seem to be caught up on simply having to juggle a double repair job with two walls taking damage.


Get real, dude. If you're not a very good gamer, that's fine. It's allowed. But don't try to call other people out on things you aren't well-versed in, just because it's different from what you find fun.

I welcome challenge. I'm sorry you don't, and it is I who pities you.

LMFAO holy *** you are funny.

Oh really you can cancel repairs? wow I didn't know that. No seriously what other pearls of wisdom do you have to share. You have several Witherbeasts in a lane wearing down multiple lanes at a time and see how repairing will save you. Another thing about DD1 defending is it was alot easier and faster to do than DD2.

Bro I have over 3k hours in DD1 and I was in endgame. You bringing up Dark Elf warriors as a threat to defenses shows me you had no idea how to properly defend. Not to mention the fact that DEW's were nerfed significantly in damage countless times. That they became *** cats.

You are typical though.

Someone calls you out and they are automatically a bad player. When you have just admitted that DEW's are a threat in DD1?

One of the most easiest enemies in the game. Here's a tip step off hard difficulty and enter nightmare. Yes there were more enemies than just DEW's.
HAHAHAHA.

You want a threat, try Spiders, Sharken, Djinn, Goblin Copters and I didn't have issue with any of them because I knew a thing about placement of defenses.

I use to run survival NMHC  mix mode solo and not ever did a Dew appear to be a threat to me and that's carrying 3 afk's with me to get more loot and purposely make it harder.

I don't need to call you bad at the game you have just done the job for me. I mean DEW's? that was the most terrible enemy you could of come up with to prove a point.




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@T.G.B. quote:

Chappyy

-snip-

I agree with a lot of "pro HD" people on other issues.

I didn't read your post because after the first part I was sure it was a rant and not constructive. I apologize if it was. If you want to tell me what I think then you need to go back and read my past posts on what I think the top three issues are. I'm not some me vs you guy and you might find we agree on a lot more issues outside of this one.

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@KnowsNoLimits quote:

You have several Witherbeasts in a lane wearing down multiple lanes at a time and see how repairing will save you. 

We all know the feeling of when you check what's is comming and you see like 16 witherbeasts in each lane :_D it's a moment of silent fear. But Witherbeasts are just strong when you can't hold them up, you can't kill them in time or can't kill the other Monsters which would damage the wall. If you can pull one of these 3 off, you are usualy safe.

;) Hope i could help you. If you have more questions on how to handle them I will help you out gladly.

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[[24592,users]]


Damn, dude. All-out with the fake laughing and everything. You're on your last leg?


I do now recall all the Elf nerfs, but I was against those nerfs at the time. My friends and I were clearing on-release Halloween while everyone else was crying for nerfs. Judging from the fact that you are speaking with nerfed Elves as your baseline, while I speak with release Elves as my baseline, I think it's pretty obvious which two types of people each of us fall under. You think you're on such high-ground right now, and since I know your type, I know there's no amount of convincing I can do that will make you understand.

All I can do is stop talking to you. There's no reason to make you think you're "winning" any more frequently than you already think you are.

P.S.

My remark about cancelling repairs was so obviously sarcastic that you taking it seriously and running with it really speaks volumes.

Anyway, carry on.

--------

[[70482,users]]

I believe that. I think we saw eye-to-eye in this thread for a brief moment, too, but somewhere in there it went to ***.

I don't think my post was a rant, by the way. Maybe it was, but I don't think it was.

The thing is, I... am telling you what you think, but only using things that you said. Usually when something like this occurs, the two people are simply tunnel-focusing on two different focal points of an argument.


But I dunno. Whatever.

Devs should "fix" the HD only because their playerbase seems to mostly dislike it. Like I've said before, all I can really do is tell you guys that you'll figure out eventually that the HD was just a symptom. Maybe not though, maybe you'll coincidentally identify the source issue without even realizing it was connected to the HD fiasco. *shrug*

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@dreamanime quote:

<3 someone knows how to play yay.

@PandynatorDD quote:


@Gnuy Niy quote:

80k wall, wow, lie of the year

If you play it right, especially gates inc you can do it w/o walls even taking damage. 


Obviously you can choke them out, stall them or like I said before just have a DPS Huntress's taking a lane each, minimizing the rogues.

Then again you could have top end stats where they just die before reaching the walls. Which isn't really coming down to a build, just raw power.

Which makes any inferior build seem viable.

What I call an effective build is when you have someone with mediocre stats clear end game content.

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@T.G.B. quote:

KnowsNoLimits


Damn, dude. All-out with the fake laughing and everything. You're on your last leg?


I do now recall all the Elf nerfs, but I was against those nerfs at the time. My friends and I were clearing on-release Halloween while everyone else was crying for nerfs. Judging from the fact that you are speaking with nerfed Elves as your baseline, while I speak with release Elves as my baseline, I think it's pretty obvious which two types of people each of us fall under. You think you're on such high-ground right now, and since I know your type, I know there's no amount of convincing I can do that will make you understand.

All I can do is stop talking to you. There's no reason to make you think you're "winning" any more frequently than you already think you are.

P.S.

My remark about cancelling repairs was so obviously sarcastic that you taking it seriously and running with it really speaks volumes.

Anyway, carry on.

--------

Chappyy

I believe that. I think we saw eye-to-eye in this thread for a brief moment, too, but somewhere in there it went to ***.

I don't think my post was a rant, by the way. Maybe it was, but I don't think it was.

The thing is, I... am telling you what you think, but only using things that you said. Usually when something like this occurs, the two people are simply tunnel-focusing on two different focal points of an argument.


But I dunno. Whatever.

Devs should "fix" the HD only because their playerbase seems to mostly dislike it. Like I've said before, all I can really do is tell you guys that you'll figure out eventually that the HD was just a symptom. Maybe not though, maybe you'll coincidentally identify the source issue without even realizing it was connected to the HD fiasco. *shrug*

It was pointed out I think right around June July time frame that the hero deck might not be so bad if all the heroes had viable towers and/or there were multiple answers for things like AA and so on. So we acknowledge that the towers are bad but it doesn't change the problem I have with the limiting factor of the deck.

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@T.G.B. quote:I am saying that your complaint with the Hero Deck being too small is because you're being forced to have one entire class specialize in a single tower. I am saying THAT is the problem. More towers should be viable. You should be able to build your flame towers, cannon towers, ballistas, even poison dart towers. They should all have some sort of place in the game (even inside a min/maxing environment, so don't try to pretend like you're a pro by bringing it up).

I agree that not all towers are equally viable at the moment, that it is a significant problem, and that Trendy really does need to address it. I suspect that both pro-HD and anti-HD players would agree on that point. Once addressed, however, I still think there will be people who dislike the hero deck and want it changed ... myself included.

I will point out that Trendy has "tried" to balance towers on a fairly regular basis, but has almost completely ignored the hero deck issue/problem/call it what you will for a year or more. Again, that is probably a big reason why there are so many anti-HD threads compared to fix tower balance threads ... though I do see that brought up fairly regularly as well.

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I'm talking about Pre-nerf enemies. I was there day 1 enjoying all NM enemies as they were introduced. I'm the person that likes to be challenged. DEW's are not what I call a threat and that's when Mistymire was endgame.

I loved 200+ MIllion Ogres in Palantir and the Gold Demon Lord having  couple billion of health. I loved the Kraken having a ton of health in Aquanos.

Hell I'm the one requesting Sharken's to return in DD2 while others fear them and still have Nightmares about them.

I'm the type of player that doesn't mind to be destroyed at first, because you learn to adapt and then it's you who is making the enemies your ***.

Oh I will carry on don't worry, but don't assume things about me.

Especially when the best thing you can come up with is a DEW. That shows me you are a casual player if that was the enemy you feared the most in DD1.

Normally people which have gone into the content more would at least bring up a Nightmare specific enemy.



@T.G.B. quote:

KnowsNoLimits


Damn, dude. All-out with the fake laughing and everything. You're on your last leg?


I do now recall all the Elf nerfs, but I was against those nerfs at the time. My friends and I were clearing on-release Halloween while everyone else was crying for nerfs. Judging from the fact that you are speaking with nerfed Elves as your baseline, while I speak with release Elves as my baseline, I think it's pretty obvious which two types of people each of us fall under. You think you're on such high-ground right now, and since I know your type, I know there's no amount of convincing I can do that will make you understand.

All I can do is stop talking to you. There's no reason to make you think you're "winning" any more frequently than you already think you are.

P.S.

My remark about cancelling repairs was so obviously sarcastic that you taking it seriously and running with it really speaks volumes.

Anyway, carry on.


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But then that only confirms my position. Why is there a huge Hero Deck crusade going on right now, and only... one discussion about tower viability that I currently see?


It's like everyone gave up, and said the Hero Deck would probably see results first, so let's migrate over to that instead.

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I think we are confident that Trendy will fix the towers ... they have made multiple changes in the past and will continue to do so until they are balanced. We are not confident that they will fix the hero deck because they have showed little evidence so far that they will do so, and the issue keeps dragging on. People that feel strongly about the hero deck are simply being vocal about it. It is important to them.

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Just for the sake of being honest, doing NM4 with 80k walls or even no walls is entirely possible.  Could do it with only earthshatter towers and ballistas too probably


Just need 4 people.  People really overlook this fact in hero deck discussions when people bring their anecdotal evidence..


Co-op difficulty scaling is really out of tune.  The irony I always see in these threads is the people clamoring that "hero deck is what makes the game hard!" also are the ones whose primary anecdotal evidence from in-game is co-op play.  

@T.G.B. quote:

But then that only confirms my position. Why is there a huge Hero Deck crusade going on right now, and only... one discussion about tower viability that I currently see?


It's like everyone gave up, and said the Hero Deck would probably see results first, so let's migrate over to that instead.

Well, for me, it's more like they've already stated their position on tower balance and they're working on it.  So, I'm letting them work on it.  Where as with the hero deck, their position and plans moving forward are ambiguous at best

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@Pachipachio quote:

Just for the sake of being honest, doing NM4 with 80k walls or even no walls is entirely possible.  Could do it with only earthshatter towers and ballistas too probably


Just need 4 people.  People really overlook this fact in hero deck discussions when people bring their anecdotal evidence..


Co-op difficulty scaling is really out of tune.  The irony I always see in these threads is the people clamoring that "hero deck is what makes the game hard!" also are the ones whose primary anecdotal evidence from in-game is co-op play.  


What about soloing with no walls? Is that feasible?

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@T.G.B. quote:

But then that only confirms my position. Why is there a huge Hero Deck crusade going on right now, and only... one discussion about tower viability that I currently see?


It's like everyone gave up, and said the Hero Deck would probably see results first, so let's migrate over to that instead.

It's because not all towers are viable and it was the same in DD1.

In all it's lifetime, not once would you have things like slice and dices in NM endgame. Ethereal's were a hit and a miss, Eve's stun beam was situational and to this day that has never been fixed.

Now in DD2 we have underwhelming towers like the Earth Shatter for the Apprentice as one example.

The Hero Deck comes into it for the sole fact that all classes have that one thing which can help you out tremendously, but you have to choose which 1 thing to sacrifice.

When like I said before in DD1 you could have 20+ characters, but the amount of DU is what limits you and that's good design. It leaves the players to have unique builds from another player. 

Instead of the same mandatory defenses which take up Hero slots quite fast.

My qualm with the HD is you have less variety in builds.

You don't need DPS to beat NM4 Incursion, done that with someone before. However hell it would go alot faster if you did have one.

Also I'm going to mention again the first thing someone is asked when they enter the game is what are your towers and if you have any and if you are below par you are going to be labled a leecher. People compare stats and the strongest build.

Trendy also mentioned an interesting point in the last dev stream which I'm going to touch on now.

They mentioned what happens if we do expand the HD to 5 slots, then people will ask for 6?

This is definitely going to happen, because people don't want to have artificial limitations placed upon them.

Especially when new classes are released the slots are just going to expand and expand until the Hero Deck is pointless to have at all.

The Hero Deck is the most controversial topic, because it's flawed.

I want to personally see it gone so that people's imagination in what they can build is the limitation. Not what is forced upon you.

So I hope another 100 HD topics pop up until now and next year.

Sorry TE your intentions may of been good with the HD encouraging co-op with random people, but it doesn't work in practice.

You missed the mark with this one and the over all frustration is apparent with people or they wouldn't be making multiple topics about it.



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@Eat your Donut quote:


...

What about soloing with no walls? Is that feasible?

Not really.  The goblins that come out of lanes can be afk'd by towers.  And you can hold down a hard lane with a DPS... but once bosses start spawning all over the place there just isn't enough DPS a DPS character can do to take everything down fast enough, even if all the lanes were right next to each other.

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@T.G.B. quote:


@Zuqual quote:


@Alhanalem quote:

Since I've participated in the thread, I'm not giong to take any punitive action (and if any is needed, I'll leave that to another moderator). However, I implore everyone, please keep the discussions civil. Personally-directed comments do not advance an argument. Please take this into consideration.

Probably should have shut it down from the start. The tone was intentionally insulting, the content added nothing to the discussion, and the intent was to shut down player feedback.  It's a triple serving of "why does this thread exist?".

-snip-

Does my position make sense yet? Or are you all still trying to jam the square block through the triangle hole?

I don't believe for a second that this is the position you where advancing in your original post.  If it is, it was communicated exceptionally poorly.  I'm fine if this is the position you've come to.  I do however reject that position.  The game is going to move further towards specialization.  If you have a problem with that then the "build" design should be the focus of your posts.  If you spent time talking about the things you want to change instead of complaining about how others people's complaints are distracting, maybe you would get further.

This is me ending my post without insulting your intelligence.  It's possible for people who disagree with each other to do that.

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@T.G.B. quote:

What a colossal waste of time... If you spent all this time complaining about something that mattered, maybe appropriate attention would be on that issue instead, and we'd be seeing coming fixes to that.


Instead, you guys can't... seem... to put the square piece... into that... triangle hole... no matter how hard you try...


You want a DPS'er? Good. Make a DPS'er.

Now make 3 builders.

Ta-da!!!!


Go find someone whose 3 builders includes that one single class that yours doesn't, and together, you got the whole squad!

All it takes is two people.

And if you only play solo... then, well, the game should be easy enough anyway. I managed with unstatted Poison Darts serving as walls. I'm pretty sure someone with a geared 4-slotted hero deck can figure out a way to make it all come together, right?

Lol... just lol.

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@Eat your Donut quote:


@Pachipachio quote:

Just for the sake of being honest, doing NM4 with 80k walls or even no walls is entirely possible.  Could do it with only earthshatter towers and ballistas too probably


Just need 4 people.  People really overlook this fact in hero deck discussions when people bring their anecdotal evidence..


Co-op difficulty scaling is really out of tune.  The irony I always see in these threads is the people clamoring that "hero deck is what makes the game hard!" also are the ones whose primary anecdotal evidence from in-game is co-op play.  


What about soloing with no walls? Is that feasible?

mmh well probably feasible. It comes more down to how well geared you are tho and how much dps output you have or how well you can repair and micro manage your waves. Like some do state, towers can be quit tanky too, and a poison dart tower lvl 1 can go far beyond 100k hp. It's obviously not a wall, but it does quit a chunk of damage too over time. Upgraded even way over 100k dps (not damage, dps!) for one tower.

The problem, like with many other towers is, to get the right passivs, on the right gear is what is hard.

Earth tower, flamethrower, cannons and ballista, all are good and can do a very high amount of damage to alot of enemys at the same time. Just you need the right gear for it kinda for nm4.

I myself actually try to farm up exactly for them currently and try to clear the hard maps with them, but I still miss so much important passivs and gear stats =(. And i think that is one difference for towers / traps / boosts. The kind of how easy you can get the gear to pull it off. Traps/ice ain't the strongest, they are rather easy to gear for. Getting a good barricade going is way more challenging. Getting a good earth tower going and ballista is hardcore in comparison. But if you manage it, your damage should end up around 150k-200k maybe per hit roughly with them. And that is aoe on a huge scale and range! I am currently on 80k-100k hits roughly for them. They clear stuff fast and steady, but it misses a few more passivs, and mods and gear upgrades (nearly all still lvl 1 enchanted, so not upgraded at all) to get it over the past where i can clear solo 1000ipw maps. Like said this ain't because they are weak, or traps/ice are to strong, they arn't, it is just plainly the gear which is still missing.

And on that note i do like that the devs currently working on the loot drops. Because that is an issue which could fix quit abit.

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@T.G.B. quote:

Ok. Well you can't do that.


Instead of having the game change to adapt to you every time there's an obstacle, how about you adapt to the game?


Your "meta strategy" is dedicating an entire hero deck slot to a single tower. Nobody sees anything wrong with this?

Try replacing the Huntress mines with a DPS tower from one of the classes you're already using. If that's not good enough, and you're going to complain that a solo person can't clear the same amount of stuff a 4-man group can, then you're just being ridiculous. Nobody complains in Diablo 3 about the 4-man leaderboards being 10+ Grift levels higher than solo leaderboards.


If the deck is too small for your own predetermined, fixated strategy for solo play, maybe you should change one of the two changeable factors in that formula (your strategy, or the single-player part), rather than join a crusade to have the game itself changed.

"Nobody complains in Diablo 3 about the 4-man leaderboards being 10+ Grift levels higher than solo leaderboards."

That's incorrect otherwise (with the latest information as received from blizzcon) they wouldn't be tweaking the game for solo players.

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Earth tower does tons of damage tho. Not that good on a single target that is true, but that's where flames are for. For a crowd it crushes then, literally. I do like to use them because of that. Huge range too. Wished more passivs would be there for them, then just one hit range increase, but i am sure the devs will do something for them for sure =).

@KnowsNoLimits quote:

Now in DD2 we have underwhelming towers like the Earth Shatter for the Apprentice as one example.


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Yeah sure earthshatter is nice, ballistas too...Tons of damage and nice range but they end up damaging enemies that are closest so ranged enemies are really an issue. Not to mention that their dmg-DU ratio is not that good. They should add useful uber spheres for these defenses. The knock-up of earthshatter was nice until "grounded" enemies were introduced so now it is useless.... They also take a lot of room so difficult to stack them in safe places...Building earthshatter and ballistas + walls does not solve the dps/one extra builder dilemma HD entails when soloing which contradicts the argument that HD is not an issue but that heroes only have one useful tower...

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