So if anyone is wonder we won't be getting Hero Deck changes until early next year

R.I.P forums.

It was just confirmed in the latest dev stream which is live atm.

I'm guessing January, maybe February we will see something.

Thoughts?

For those of you wondering why, the milestone we're working on right now is the final milestone of the year. This milestone is focused on improving loot/RNG issues, as we mentioned in the Devstream. You can hear Brad talk about those changes when the Video on Demand goes up on YouTube later tonight. :)

@iamisom quote:

For those of you wondering why, the milestone we're working on right now is the final milestone of the year. This milestone is focused on improving loot/RNG issues, as we mentioned in the Devstream. You can hear Brad talk about those changes when the Video on Demand goes up on YouTube later tonight. :)

Thank for clarifying! I was watching the stream and Brad mentioned some group called R.P.G. which seemed to be something that one could sign up for. Could you elaborate for me?

@iamisom quote:

For those of you wondering why, the milestone we're working on right now is the final milestone of the year. This milestone is focused on improving loot/RNG issues, as we mentioned in the Devstream. You can hear Brad talk about those changes when the Video on Demand goes up on YouTube later tonight. :)

Cheers for the clarifiction.

I'm not going to lie though I am disappointed with that decision, but at least I know why it's happening.

All  of the "positive" feeling toward the Hero Deck is based on the fact that people like to bring multiple heroes into combat. To the extent that the HD allows the use of multiple heroes, I'm 100% for that as well. If the survey questions had been better constructed, it would have been clear to Trendy that the limiting aspect of the HD is generally viewed negatively ... especially by late game solo players who need 4 builders in order to beat the map, and therefore don't have the opportunity to use a DPS hero. Until geared up properly (which takes a long time), some maps actually require 4 builders AND a DPS hero to beat.

I think the assumption by many who replied to the survey is that without the Hero Deck, they would only be able to bring a single hero to battle ... so obviously it is a positive thing.

I think that Trendy does not have good data, or that they are misinterpreting the data they have.

At a bare minimum, just make a 5th, dedicated DPS slot on top of the 4 builder/general slots that exist today. Make it so the new, 5th slot cannot build. This would make a HUGE difference.

Well so much for me playing till next year. I was waiting for either hero deck change, tower rebalancing, or mid/late game xp changes. I don't really get excited for loot if the process of getting it sucks.

@Chappyy quote:

Well so much for me playing till next year. I was waiting for either hero deck change, tower rebalancing, or mid/late game xp changes. I don't really get excited for loot if the process of getting it sucks.

Yup, I know a few who are going to be most likely taking a break until it's finally changed. So you aren't the only one.

I haven't played for a week, and don't really have any motivation to do so at the moment.

I farm NM4 LFR, but haven't been able to break into NM4 Gates Incursion. Need to play a DPS in addition to my builders, but for some reason can't figure out how to make that happen. Can someone point me in the direction of how to build with 4 heroes and DPS with a 5th?

@KnowsNoLimits quote:

@Chappyy quote:

Well so much for me playing till next year. I was waiting for either hero deck change, tower rebalancing, or mid/late game xp changes. I don't really get excited for loot if the process of getting it sucks.

Yup, I know a few who are going to be most likely taking a break until it's finally changed. So you aren't the only one.

I haven't played since the start of September . I tried one in mid sep but after one round I was depressed and did my laundry instead.

@DavidBlainesNephew quote:

@iamisom quote:

For those of you wondering why, the milestone we're working on right now is the final milestone of the year. This milestone is focused on improving loot/RNG issues, as we mentioned in the Devstream. You can hear Brad talk about those changes when the Video on Demand goes up on YouTube later tonight. :)

Thank for clarifying! I was watching the stream and Brad mentioned some group called R.P.G. which seemed to be something that one could sign up for. Could you elaborate for me?

It's the Remote Playtesting Group. It's a collection of volunteer community members who help us test upcoming content for feedback. You can join the group by contacting Dani Moore at dani.moore[at]trendyent[dot]com. (Dani also runs the Remote QA group, which is a group of volunteer community members who help us find bugs before release. You can use the same email address to sign up for that, too!)

@Professor_Valconian quote:

All  of the "positive" feeling toward the Hero Deck is based on the fact that people like to bring multiple heroes into combat. ... If the survey questions had been better constructed, it would have been clear to Trendy that the limiting aspect of the HD is generally viewed negatively ... especially by late game solo players who need 4 builders in order to beat the map, and therefore don't have the opportunity to use a DPS hero. Until geared up properly (which takes a long time), some maps actually require 4 builders AND a DPS hero to beat.

This is a valid point, and I mentioned this when I was discussing the survey results in my stream yesterday. I also mentioned this when I sent out the summary of the survey internally. 

We know there are issues with the Hero Deck, and we want to fix those.

@iamisom quote:

@DavidBlainesNephew quote:

@iamisom quote:

For those of you wondering why, the milestone we're working on right now is the final milestone of the year. This milestone is focused on improving loot/RNG issues, as we mentioned in the Devstream. You can hear Brad talk about those changes when the Video on Demand goes up on YouTube later tonight. :)

Thank for clarifying! I was watching the stream and Brad mentioned some group called R.P.G. which seemed to be something that one could sign up for. Could you elaborate for me?

It's the Remote Playtesting Group. It's a collection of volunteer community members who help us test upcoming content for feedback. You can join the group by contacting Dani Moore at dani.moore[at]trendyent[dot]com. (Dani also runs the Remote QA group, which is a group of volunteer community members who help us find bugs before release. You can use the same email address to sign up for that, too!)

@Professor_Valconian quote:

All  of the "positive" feeling toward the Hero Deck is based on the fact that people like to bring multiple heroes into combat. ... If the survey questions had been better constructed, it would have been clear to Trendy that the limiting aspect of the HD is generally viewed negatively ... especially by late game solo players who need 4 builders in order to beat the map, and therefore don't have the opportunity to use a DPS hero. Until geared up properly (which takes a long time), some maps actually require 4 builders AND a DPS hero to beat.

This is a valid point, and I mentioned this when I was discussing the survey results in my stream yesterday. I also mentioned this when I sent out the summary of the survey internally. 

We know there are issues with the Hero Deck, and we want to fix those.

Read this in the most unrude tone please  but with all due respect DEVs have been saying this since last spring. There is a difference between we want to and we are. I tell my kids all the time I want to take them to Disneyland but those little turds haven't been yet. FYI they are 17 and 13.

that sucks, the only thing u have to do is to set a 5th slot for those who must build nm4 alone and cant dps because of 4 slots. Its pretty ez, 5 instead of 4. it's like 4+1, 5.

Well, I will look forward to playing again in January/February then!

@Colonel Rambo quote:

that sucks, the only thing u have to do is to set a 5th slot for those who must build nm4 alone and cant dps because of 4 slots. Its pretty ez, 5 instead of 4. it's like 4+1, 5.

This.

However it won't happen anytime soon.

@ToxicCaterpillar quote:

Well, I will look forward to playing again in January/February then!

Don't blame you at all, if the HD is limiting your fun then just wait until it's fixed.

As for me I'm still going to play. I enjoy challenges and even if you stack the odds against me in solo, I'm still going to try my best to overcome them.

@Professor_Valconian quote:

All  of the "positive" feeling toward the Hero Deck is based on the fact that people like to bring multiple heroes into combat. To the extent that the HD allows the use of multiple heroes, I'm 100% for that as well. If the survey questions had been better constructed, it would have been clear to Trendy that the limiting aspect of the HD is generally viewed negatively ... especially by late game solo players who need 4 builders in order to beat the map, and therefore don't have the opportunity to use a DPS hero. Until geared up properly (which takes a long time), some maps actually require 4 builders AND a DPS hero to beat.

I think the assumption by many who replied to the survey is that without the Hero Deck, they would only be able to bring a single hero to battle ... so obviously it is a positive thing.

I think that Trendy does not have good data, or that they are misinterpreting the data they have.

At a bare minimum, just make a 5th, dedicated DPS slot on top of the 4 builder/general slots that exist today. Make it so the new, 5th slot cannot build. This would make a HUGE difference.

NO. That would mean dps is even more required. Some people actually hate dps, or don't want to dps.

@Ninja_Kero quote:

@Professor_Valconian quote:

All  of the "positive" feeling toward the Hero Deck is based on the fact that people like to bring multiple heroes into combat. To the extent that the HD allows the use of multiple heroes, I'm 100% for that as well. If the survey questions had been better constructed, it would have been clear to Trendy that the limiting aspect of the HD is generally viewed negatively ... especially by late game solo players who need 4 builders in order to beat the map, and therefore don't have the opportunity to use a DPS hero. Until geared up properly (which takes a long time), some maps actually require 4 builders AND a DPS hero to beat.

I think the assumption by many who replied to the survey is that without the Hero Deck, they would only be able to bring a single hero to battle ... so obviously it is a positive thing.

I think that Trendy does not have good data, or that they are misinterpreting the data they have.

At a bare minimum, just make a 5th, dedicated DPS slot on top of the 4 builder/general slots that exist today. Make it so the new, 5th slot cannot build. This would make a HUGE difference.

NO. That would mean dps is even more required. Some people actually hate dps, or don't want to dps.

Agreed I wouldn't want a slot added just to accommodate dps because that is sure to lean towards more dps requirement. 

We really need to give dps its own sections of the game like in dd1. We don't need another game that's Sanctum.

Sanctum is Sanctum. I actually like my tower defenses all... winnable off tower defense alone. I mean, some maps where a dps is required would be fine. Some maps that lean towards tower only also fine, and some maps being dps only with nice dps loot, also fine. Trying to get it all done in the same maps? Not gonna work. You can't balance for people with that many varied interests at the same time.

Like this here.

We have the people who ask for dps to make a difference, a major difference, in map completion.

The other ones who say it's no fun to afk after setting defenses, and they want to do more than repair.

Still others who think dps is still too weak.

Then there are those asking why they need to dps at all in a tower defense, they just want to build.

And other ones who want to 'afk'. Trendy even wanted to put in a throne emote for literally that kind of thinking.

And some who don't want any dps at all, or other people, even. Which is why soloists.

I can understand both sides. Builders like puzzling out new and interesting ways of killing things from relative safety, seeing if they can never leak using 100% auras etc. Others prefer more of a personal massacre. However, you can't have it so people can relax on a map on a high difficulty if they build well enough with gear around that zone, then also make dps practically mandatory. No anti afk while also totally 'afk'. No hero decks designed for forcing group play while also having solo uninhibited. Just check the forums. You'll see each of these repeated on about every page.

We need three kinds of maps really, and likely some changes. A map for dps to hunt on for a nice dps weapon/set. A map for builders to get nice builder stuff on, and to really experiment on, and dps has little or no value there. And a map where both have to work together to get by, like nm4 is now. Otherwise we're not going to see much growth if any in the community, and the game will suffer from a lack of interest and needed fans, and die.

I don't see the reason for making this a huge topic. They elaborated quite enough in the dev stream.

It's a system that has impact on every aspect of the game. 

Should the game be balanced around everyone being able to solo with 17 heroes? One for each and every single build in the whole game?

When we get new heroes. Will we then balance the game around having 37 different builds to solo with?

It will never be a game where you can do it all. As said in the dev stream. They want you to be able to play different strategies, with many, many different builds. 

Which all ofc, should be close to equal in strength. But in different ways. Different strategies. 

You don't build a melee character in PoE or Diablo, then complain it doesnt deal enough  ranged damage. 

You play towards the strategy you build for. Sure it is not the case right now, since we do not have tons of different builds to work with. We just have to give it some time. 

And hopefully, we can get 1 or 2 more hero deck spaces, but thats it. You will never be able to completely play a one trick pony in DD2. You will have to choose and cooperate with you'r fellow players. Which is a good thing. As long as there is a viable way to solo. Even if it's harder, takes more strategy and planning. Oh and ofc, gearing up for it.

I've read TONS of forum posts on the topic of the hero deck. In exactly zero of them has anyone ever suggested that the game should be balanced around 17 or 37 or any such ridiculous number of heroes. Most say that if they added 2 or 3 slots they would be happy. Others say that there should be equality in the number of heroes that can be brought whether playing co-op or solo. Those don't seem like unreasonable suggestions.

And yes, to a lot of people it is a "huge topic." Part of the reason for that is because changes to the hero deck have been suggested for well over a year, and Trendy's response seems to always just kick the can down the road. For evidence of just how "huge" it is, go back and look at the results of influence week which happened back in June or July.

@PandynatorDD quote:

I don't see the reason for making this a huge topic. They elaborated quite enough in the dev stream.

It's a system that has impact on every aspect of the game. 

Should the game be balanced around everyone being able to solo with 17 heroes? One for each and every single build in the whole game?

When we get new heroes. Will we then balance the game around having 37 different builds to solo with?

It will never be a game where you can do it all. As said in the dev stream. They want you to be able to play different strategies, with many, many different builds. 

Which all ofc, should be close to equal in strength. But in different ways. Different strategies. 

You don't build a melee character in PoE or Diablo, then complain it doesnt deal enough  ranged damage. 

You play towards the strategy you build for. Sure it is not the case right now, since we do not have tons of different builds to work with. We just have to give it some time. 

And hopefully, we can get 1 or 2 more hero deck spaces, but thats it. You will never be able to completely play a one trick pony in DD2. You will have to choose and cooperate with you'r fellow players. Which is a good thing. As long as there is a viable way to solo. Even if it's harder, takes more strategy and planning. Oh and ofc, gearing up for it.

This is a prime example of the perspective that was lost and is now sorely lacking here.

You don't even have it backwards, it is just plain wrong.

There is no balancing around 37 builds etc.

Otherwise, how else would players figure out ways to take on challenges, and map and monster and challenge makers figuring out something devious, new, or clever to fight back with?

Simply put, there should be no 'balancing' aside from making a not completely OP, unique builder. Then players figure out ways to take on absurd waves of monsters and environments with different combinations of those heroes. Some may work, some may not, some better than others, but it's far more game play, far more FUN than having cookie cutter heroes and meta and builds, maps and monsters and ways to deal. It's also easier to work with than fighting the people who play and trying to argue them into having fun when they have fun their own way.

If players find some 'broken' combo on some map, all the better. If it doesn't work on every map, just some,  that's great. If there are several 'broken' ways of dealing with a map, Trendy is doing its job. Then players are discovering and feeling pleased for themselves on figuring out how to defeat the horde of bad guys. Players are not the enemy, and neither is their enjoyment. When you start looking for ways to argue with a large amount of players who have had a problem with the game, especially for a long period, you're looking for ways to kill that game. People do leave until it gets better, and frequently they never come back. Did DDE ever get fixed? Enough pandering to Trendy not doing a thing about it, honestly. If you care about the game, look at how many people are unhappy and for how long. That's all you really need to be looking at.

@PandynatorDD quote:

I don't see the reason for making this a huge topic. They elaborated quite enough in the dev stream.

It's a system that has impact on every aspect of the game. 

Should the game be balanced around everyone being able to solo with 17 heroes? One for each and every single build in the whole game?

When we get new heroes. Will we then balance the game around having 37 different builds to solo with?

It will never be a game where you can do it all. As said in the dev stream. They want you to be able to play different strategies, with many, many different builds. 

Which all ofc, should be close to equal in strength. But in different ways. Different strategies. 

You don't build a melee character in PoE or Diablo, then complain it doesnt deal enough  ranged damage. 

You play towards the strategy you build for. Sure it is not the case right now, since we do not have tons of different builds to work with. We just have to give it some time. 

And hopefully, we can get 1 or 2 more hero deck spaces, but thats it. You will never be able to completely play a one trick pony in DD2. You will have to choose and cooperate with you'r fellow players. Which is a good thing. As long as there is a viable way to solo. Even if it's harder, takes more strategy and planning. Oh and ofc, gearing up for it.

This topic isn't a rant of any kind, this topic was to give a heads up to anyone who wasn't aware and watched the dev stream. So that's why it was made.

Not everyone watches the dev stream you know.

Also DU balances the games, having as many characters as you want gives you greater options. I'm still soloing NM4 with the HD atm, it has slowed down my progression. However you can't stop a determined player.

I still group with people as well when needed, but sometimes I just rather test my limits as a player and do content which isn't intended for solo play.

I don't like the HD as it promotes cookie cutter builds as not all towers are viable for endgame and that is also certainly a balance issue as well. Also gearing up and trying different builds should be what keeps you interested in the game. Not having the ability to do that, just kills alot of the game's longevity.

The devs seem to think that they know best what the average player wants and that they have to balance the game around them. By doing so ignoring the dedicated fans which watch their streams and use the forums. 

But in reality the average player doesn't care at all if he can bring 4 or 40 heroes he just wants a fun game.

Kill it with fire. It's a stupid stupid idea and it's time to acknowledge that and move forwards. I hate joining public games and have someone ask me if I have a good 'x' character only to have to say 'yeah but not in deck'. Total mp killer. Total sp killer. Total fail. Kill it. Bury it. Forget about it. GG.

@IGELmitDEAGLE quote:

The devs seem to think that they know best what the average player wants and that they have to balance the game around them. By doing so ignoring the dedicated fans which watch their streams and use the forums. 

But in reality the average player doesn't care at all if he can bring 4 or 40 heroes he just wants a fun game.

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