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calranthe

Taking a break and returning to DD1

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Both myself and wife have decided that DD2 is just not as fun and engaging as the original and unfortunately it is hard to pick out the wrong decisions or qualities.

Do not get me wrong DD2 is a good game I have 280 hours in the game and I know it is still alpha but it just feels like all the fun is draining out of the game and I do not think balancing will fix it.

So let me try to break it down.

The towers and effects in DD2 are a let down, compare any class on DD2 to its equivalent in DD1 and they are lacking, even just comparing the fireball tower of an apprentice is laughable.

Weapons in DD1 are amazing and weird from grenade launchers to mini-guns, light sabres to staffs

Sound effects, Graphics and explosions, when your lightning tower waists an ogre or a harpoon slaughters an enemy you actually feel powerful.

Yes we had balance issues, cheating and problems but I just logged off DD1 after 25 survival rounds and have a smile on my face, it was fun and I felt like a defender and that didn't matter if I was in my Hunter, Mage or Summoner, I had forgotten the glee of seeing my Ogre pet wallop a troll across the map.


While in DD1 I can solo with any class as a single player in DD2 I have to bring in many different chars, Monk for air defence and boosting/serenity, Squire for barriers, Mage with a frost build, Huntress Trap build  and because of the Deck restraints I am left without a DPS character.

While I do enjoy the extra strategies it has taken away from me being a kick ass Tower defence bad ass because I have to split my personality to succeed.

At the same time monthly missions seemingly designed to cause burn out in casual players.

I will keep an eye on DD2 and I really want to see it succeed but the simple fact is DD1 makes me feel like a bad ass DD2 makes me feel like a grind job or farmer.

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Even if you come back soon it's not going to change that much. Yeah of course there will be more passives, weapons, maybe characters, more hero deck slot (i hope), but DD2 will never get one thing that made DD1 fun : the feeling of being overpowered with towers. Tower attack rate and speed were just great in DD1.

*sigh* my 0.07s harpoon... The good old times

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Well that sounds like a feeling I had on my first 25 hours of DD2, I still play and farm with mates, but I don't have that joy you seem to describe to us, hopefully this game will be just as fun :D  they're actually trying, I believe!

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Lets not forget pets, I took a 4 month break from DD1 to concentrate on DD2 after a couple of days back in DD1 I was running about grabbing mana when I noticed my pet was slaughtering enemies left and right, I just stood there and watched with a smile  then thought about the pets in DD2 and :(

I really want Trendy to Succeed and I have my defence council + collectors edition, happy to support them but in DD1 I felt and feel heroic in DD2 the word is Drudgery:  dull, irksome, and fatiguing work :  uninspiring or menial labor.

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At the moment OP is completely true, Theres no reason sense of feeling strong or overpowered currently. Everything seems far too linear and straight forward to the point it gets a little dull. You dont get to see your towers go from short range slow firing at low levels to insanely long range machine gun towers in endgame. For me theres no feeling of accomplishment other than getting towers to do slightly more damage at a time.

Pets are horribly static. Theres no difference between a pet you get when you fire receive one to a pet you get from endgame. In DD1 it was great because NM maps not only dropped horrible weak pets but those same pets could drop in a super OP form and was exciting to see one on the ground after hours/days/weeks of farming.

Same thing goes for weapons. There was such a MASSIVE scaling on weapons that it made my head spin at times. That moment you're farming obsidian weapons in akatiti jungle and one drops that so ridiculously powerful you feel like the game hacked the stats for you and gifted it to you. It was incredible finding weapons like that.

Ive said it many times before, TOWER RANGE AND SPEED NEED TO BE BROUGHT BACK TO GEAR AND WEAPON SCALING NEEDS TO BE LIKE IT WAS IN DD1 SO WE CAN HAVE A FEELING OF ACTUAL PROGRESSION.

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Yea the items in DD2 feel so lame. I think higher tiers of items could have more secondary stats. e.g. "worn" have 0 secondary stat, "sturdy" have UP TO 1 secondary, "powerful" have UP TO 2 secondary, epic have UP TO 3, mythical have UP TO 4, legendary have UP TO 5.

I liked how in DD1 that an item could boost practically any stat and it was super rare to get an item that boosted most stats.

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I agree with the OP.  After the initial wow factor of the new look and style wore off I realized I wasn't having fun playing the game. It seemed way more grindy and I didn't feel rewarded for my grind. It probably isn't but if you are having fun you don't notice the grind as much. DD1 I was excited to get to the next difficulty level each time because each time it was a challenge. I don't even care about endgame in DD2 it just seems like the same thing only you feel less rewarded for the even longer harder work you have to put into the map.  In DD1 breaking into NM, I got massively excited after wave one if I opened a chest and got that one piece of upgraded gear. Even if I got monkey stomped wave two I could notice a subtle increase of power with every piece of gear I got.

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I think it is a trap that other games have fallen into, developers start to balance the game against the top 1% the ones that have a crew/clan/guild who farm items and live for new tactics, the ones that will beat any challenge and ace nightmare+++ and there is nothing wrong with those kind of people but it raises the risk vs reward curve so high that to most of the rest of us it is work not play. Trouble is even that top 1% will never be happy because no one can produce quality content at a rate they will not burn through. Look how quick the top guilds on Wow own a new expansion.

The month long quest gives a pet whose stats seem completely random and I am sorry for that kind of work we deserve an uber pet or a super weapon or piece of equipment not a unique pet that can roll with such fun abilities like tower crit character crit.

Even the lore does not really fit, we are so much more reduced in power from our younger versions in DD1

Hell if you take DD1 as happening when we were a lot younger then Squires should be dropping down Quad barrel cannons and mini-gun style harpoon throwers just based on the evolution and challenge of enemies and our apprentice should now be able to drop down multi elemental towers that fire gatlin like magic missiles and fireballs.

(BTW the community patch for DD1 rocks jester is now fun as hell to play and solo viable)

We play to have fun and I should not need to start up DD1 for that.

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What i miss, which has been mentioned, but in other words, is the great power ups. I mean, when you got NM equipment, you became a beast! Anything under NM was a piece of cake. When you started out u maybe had a dps of 100? But with decent NM equipment u end up with millions of dps! That is a dramatic change. Since the change is much less dramatic in DD2, i don't really get the same feeling of progress, or godlike power. 


Back in the days I watched youtube videos and was like "Thats such a badass weapon! Never seen it b4, how do i get it?" And usually it was some hard challenge. Now there's really no weapons/items/pets that stand out. Just some weapons that is visually more appealing.


However, i hope that it will become just as dramatic changes as in DD1 in the future, when more content comes. The same goes for unique weapon abilities and stuff. I like DD1 better as of now. But i love DD2 too and will continue playing until i've beaten all NM4 maps. 

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I'm having similar feelings like most people here. I'll be honest, I couldn't really even bring myself to finish getting a fourth character to 50, me and my friend and never beat NM3 - powerups feel nonexistent compared to DD1, the joy of getting a legendary drop cannot be even remotely compared to the joy of getting a Mythical in first waves of nightmare... I had to keep checking the tower stats to see that my gear is actually working, as it's barely seen to the naked eye.

After a while we got bored grinding and just spent rest of the time finding loopholes in most maps. Now that we're done, I've nothing left to do here.

Really looking forward to DD2 picking up the pace, though.

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The thing I most miss about DD1 - as much as even varied weapons - was negative item stats. I loved that items could be terrible. I loved that items could have a few great stats, far better than the item's level, but with a cost. It really allowed customization in your hero and your playstyle.

In DD2, I feel like every item choice is:

  1. Does the item have the Primary Stat (Defense Health for Squire, Defense Power for everyone else) of my build as it's primary stat? If not, discard it immediately.
  2. Does the item have the Special Passive for my class (Hearty Blockade, Frosty Power)?
  3. Does the item have the Secondary Stat for my class (if any)?
  4. If neither 2 or 3 is satisfied, discard the item.
  5. Mild preference to higher rarity because they level better.

I could write a script to do that for me. It's not a choice, it's a maximization function. There is an optimal answer, and that's bad.

Part of this is that items are very controllable. They only have two stats, and up to three passives. You can filter very heavily and get items perfect in every way, because while they are rarer, they're not that rare. Gone are the days of items with ten stats, some good some bad, and the appraisal of what you can use and what drags you down and whether it's worth it.

And that's ignoring that items with variable everything can produce results that, regardless of effectiveness or utility, are HILARIOUS. My favorite gun EVER in DD1 was a grenade launcher with -1132 projectile speed. The grenades did not arc and bounce. THEY DROPPED STRAIGHT DOWN AT MY FEET. There's nothing quite like pulling the trigger and watching a grenade just drop down THUNK. It was great. It made my huntress a melee character, which is stupid and impractical for all the obvious reasons, but it let me change things up and just have fun with such a ridiculous weapon.

That ridiculous is a big part of what was lost from DD1. 

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At first I thought I was the only one feeling like this but I have to agree with pretty much everything people have said, we all here because we really like Trendy and have sunk many hours into there games another issue is seemingly Trendy is trying to reinvent the wheel and what I mean is

DD1 network code was not perfect but it worked

DD1 revolutionary choice of play on a secure server or open "anything goes" was great as was the shops and steam integration the ability to drop your characters from secure servers onto your computer and play lan/crazy stuff if servers were down.

DD1 Shops I mean yes the economy went down the toilet but still it was fun.

DD1 the fun factor and innovation to the weapons looks and use.

DD1 Survival mode, hardcore mode, ease of which to customize and change any mission to suit what you wanted to play.

DD1 enemies, I mean those damn spiders they really did take away your comfort zone, Sharkens!!.

DD1 Private tavern, I mean come on in DD1 your tavern was something to be proud of, so many visual rewards and so nostalgic when you come back and walk around remembering how you got each one.

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When DDE came out I got disappointed, because all i really wanted was DD1 with minor fixes. My dream was a new game, exactly like DD1 but without all the "hacking" and better RNG. I never once bought an item from another player because it was so common to manipulate items to have really good stats. And the RNG was kind of broken because it was almost impossible to get a good ultimate or supreme item. Especially ultimate. Kind of lost the purpose to even implement ult and supreme then,


Anyways, if these issues was fixed, it would be my dream game <3

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I opened up DD1 today, for the first time in ages.  And you know what, the graphics might be a bit crude but it just flowed.  You can take control of your hero and it does it exactly what you want and you can see him do it, you can feel him do it and it is so rewarding to have that connection.  This is severely lacking in DD2.  I don't feel connected at all.  I don't see the point of having amazing graphics if the play is a let down.  And quite honestly, after what, two years, it is a let down. 

Perhaps we are deluding ourselves in the hope that DD2 will achieve the play that DD1 brought to us.

They way things are going, I feel sad in the thought that it wont get better.

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All we can do is give feedback and make our voices heard after all we are not slamming the game we would love for DD2 to take the place of DD1 and I agree tweaks and improvements to DD1 would have with that solid foundation made a much better game than this.

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@tompish quote:

When DDE came out I got disappointed, because all i really wanted was DD1 with minor fixes. My dream was a new game, exactly like DD1 but without all the "hacking" and better RNG. I never once bought an item from another player because it was so common to manipulate items to have really good stats. And the RNG was kind of broken because it was almost impossible to get a good ultimate or supreme item. Especially ultimate. Kind of lost the purpose to even implement ult and supreme then,


Anyways, if these issues was fixed, it would be my dream game <3

I hope DDE isn't a precursor to how DD2 is going to go. DDE was an epic failure and I can't believe I wasted money on it. I was like you though I thought it was just a reboot of the game to test playverse system. Oh it was not.

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The OP and many others in this thread are spot on. I have been feeling this way from the beginning of DD2. It has gotten marginally better as time has progressed, but DD2 still pales in comparison to DD1 in terms of fun factor.

TRENDY, PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF THIS FEEDBACK.

I REALLY want DD2 to succeed, but at the moment DD1 is better in so many ways. Hate to say it, but I think the only area that DD2 is an improvement on DD1 is in the art/graphics department. Other than that you have taken a step backward in every other area. Go back to DD1 and see what made it fun. Don't be afraid to carry those ideas forward into DD2. Feel free to tweak them, but don't just throw them away. That would be a shame.

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@tompish quote:Back in the days I watched youtube videos and was like "Thats such a badass weapon! Never seen it b4, how do i get it?" And usually it was some hard challenge. Now there's really no weapons/items/pets that stand out. Just some weapons that is visually more appealing.

This x 1,000.

I was psyched to see new weapons with the Ascension patch ... but they still come nowhere close to approaching the glory and FUN of DD1 weapons.

Trendy, among other things, you really need to make weapon DPS scale with weapons stats rather than hero stats ... and make those weapon stats vary much more widely than they currently do. The first weapon you find in any difficulty will be nearly as useful/powerful as the 500th weapon you find in that same difficulty. There is just about zero incentive to farm weapons in this game. Apart from attack pattern, they are all nearly identical. NOT FUN.

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@Professor_Valconian quote:


@tompish quote:Back in the days I watched youtube videos and was like "Thats such a badass weapon! Never seen it b4, how do i get it?" And usually it was some hard challenge. Now there's really no weapons/items/pets that stand out. Just some weapons that is visually more appealing.

This x 1,000.

I was psyched to see new weapons with the Ascension patch ... but they still come nowhere close to approaching the glory and FUN of DD1 weapons.

Trendy, among other things, you really need to make weapon DPS scale with weapons stats rather than hero stats ... and make those weapon stats vary much more widely than they currently do. The first weapon you find in any difficulty will be nearly as useful/powerful as the 500th weapon you find in that same difficulty. There is just about zero incentive to farm weapons in this game. Apart from attack pattern, they are all nearly identical. NOT FUN.

This is so true. Theres really no super cool weapons or pets. The weapons in DD1 were made in such a way you could get a super weak weapon in Nightmare and on the same map 5 runs later the game make you feels like the stats were hacked on a weapon that dropped because of how insanely OP it was compared to the others that dropped (Akatiti Jungle's Obsidian weapons as a good example.)

This kind of thing is what made DD1 so fun and exciting to play because you never knew what would drop and when something crazy dropped you basically fell out of your chair with excitement. Same thing with pets too, Farming for Cats or hero pets youd find super OP forms of them. DD2's pets are horribly static. Theres really no difference between a powerful and a legendary pet in terms of stats.

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Remember the weapons that were twice the size of your character so fun and ridiculous, all we can do is hope Trendy is reading this thread, I know it is not what they really want to hear with almost two years of effort into the game but DD1 walks all over this in terms of fun. 

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Yes. You've nailed it on the head. DD1 is probably the easiest game ever made because everything is so overpowered. Anyone can pick it up and within a matter of minutes they can just roll through all difficulty levels. That's what we want for DD2 as well. We want a total AFK-fest with zero challenge. Right now it's just too hard and that means it isn't fun. Bring back the cake walk that was DD1.

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@Professor_Valconian quote:

Yes. You've nailed it on the head. DD1 is probably the easiest game ever made because everything is so overpowered. Anyone can pick it up and within a matter of minutes they can just roll through all difficulty levels. That's what we want for DD2 as well. We want a total AFK-fest with zero challenge. Right now it's just too hard and that means it isn't fun. Bring back the cake walk that was DD1.

That sounds pretty terrible.  

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@calranthe quote:

I think it is a trap that other games have fallen into, developers start to balance the game against the top 1% the ones that have a crew/clan/guild who farm items and live for new tactics, the ones that will beat any challenge and ace nightmare+++ and there is nothing wrong with those kind of people but it raises the risk vs reward curve so high that to most of the rest of us it is work not play. Trouble is even that top 1% will never be happy because no one can produce quality content at a rate they will not burn through. Look how quick the top guilds on Wow own a new expansion.

The month long quest gives a pet whose stats seem completely random and I am sorry for that kind of work we deserve an uber pet or a super weapon or piece of equipment not a unique pet that can roll with such fun abilities like tower crit character crit.

Even the lore does not really fit, we are so much more reduced in power from our younger versions in DD1

Hell if you take DD1 as happening when we were a lot younger then Squires should be dropping down Quad barrel cannons and mini-gun style harpoon throwers just based on the evolution and challenge of enemies and our apprentice should now be able to drop down multi elemental towers that fire gatlin like magic missiles and fireballs.

(BTW the community patch for DD1 rocks jester is now fun as hell to play and solo viable)

We play to have fun and I should not need to start up DD1 for that.

So many of these posts are on point. The OP said it so well, then the comments really hit home with so many issues with this game.

I really want to see this game succeed. I truly do.  I want that feeling that DD1 gives me still. 


This post really caught my eye and I keep thinking back on it. 


This needs to be seen by Trendy. They need to discuss this in a staff meeting. 

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