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tonyb

Yet another Hero Deck Post

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These guys can't even fix the barricades that ruin the game for solo anyway, not even a temporary fix, they obviously can't see the solo issue.

CO-OP can build, leave game, rejoin with DPS. So of course co-op players have no problem with the hero deck, it doesn't affect them, they have no hero deck.


There's a workaround for solo.

Get a second account, use sandbox or a second computer. Start a private game, then join with the second account, build, leave, come back with dps and leave with second account. You have no hero deck solo with effort.

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If a builder leaves the game, their towers lose any passive buff they had on their gear. So, this strat might be viable in early difficulties, but in NM and higher it would severely hurt the towers.

@mokn quote:

CO-OP can build, leave game, rejoin with DPS. So of course co-op players have no problem with the hero deck, it doesn't affect them, they have no hero deck.


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@Sweetwarlock quote:

If a builder leaves the game, their towers lose any passive buff they had on their gear. So, this strat might be viable in early difficulties, but in NM and higher it would severely hurt the towers.

@mokn quote:

CO-OP can build, leave game, rejoin with DPS. So of course co-op players have no problem with the hero deck, it doesn't affect them, they have no hero deck.


No, the only thing that's lost is the hp from barricades when you rejoin. Build barricades after you rejoin the game and you won't have to waste some mana repairing them.

If someone leaves the game and doesn't return, then yes all passives and gear are lost but that is not what i'm talking about....

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@iamisom quote: Players enjoy having a system that surfaces the ability to bring in multiple heroes (which was an issue in DD1). Most players want tweaks to the system, not a removal.
  • A large number of players wish they could bring in more heroes.

What exactly was the issue in DD1?

I'm not sure what you mean here by "surfaces". Permits? Facilitates?

Is this really the source of confusion? Whenever I have said "Remove the hero deck" I did NOT mean "Allow us to bring only one hero into a game". I meant "let us bring as many heroes into a game as we want." The only counter-argument I have heard for the hero deck is it makes the game "Pay to win". If a paywall is the biggest worry around fixing an absolutely core feature then maybe, out of all the cash shop options, having to purchase additional characters shouldn't be one of them.

The way you word a survey question and the target demographic can greatly influence the end results.

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@iamisom quote:

I'd be happy to talk about the survey. At the beginning of the survey, there's a question that asks, "Did you play before or after the F2P launch?" If you answered "after," you wouldn't see the Hero Deck question -- you were sent to another page that talked about Campaign Normal difficulty. Only those who played before our F2P launch answered questions about the Hero Deck. It's possible that some of these players had just picked up the game, but it's most likely that these players had at least a few weeks of playtime under their belt.

What we learned from the Hero Deck survey:

  • The Hero Deck has issues, but the general vibe about the Hero Deck system as a whole is generally positive. Players enjoy having a system that surfaces the ability to bring in multiple heroes (which was an issue in DD1). Most players want tweaks to the system, not a removal.
  • A large number of players wish they could bring in more heroes.

The survey helped us take some of the comments from the forums and bring them to a wider audience. For example, some players on the forums wish that you couldn't use multiple heroes in a match at all (which, according to survey data, isn't representative of our playerbase as a whole). Some players wish that the Hero Deck only existed in group play (which, according to survey data, does represent the wishes of the playerbase at large). 

The Hero Deck is a topic we can ask again in a later survey. Someone mentioned in another thread that we didn't ask about how many heroes a player had, which is a fair point, and it's something we'll add in when we do another Hero Deck survey question. Our data gathering doesn't stop with one survey. Like all things in our game, it's a continual process.

The takeaway from the survey is that the playerbase at large agrees that the Hero Deck should allow more heroes to be used in a match and that it's possible to address the issues using the current system. If, after we make those changes, the issues are still being reported, then we can take a look at totally redesigning the system.

Could you post the question of the survey here to ensure that the player do not mislead by the survey?

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2. How do you feel about the Hero Deck in solo play? The Hero Deck is the system that allows you to bring multiple heroes in a match and is organized on the Forge screen.


The question sounds like they are asking how people like bringing multiple heroes to the match. Of course most of them will say that they like it. 

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I understand that the reason behind having the hero deck is to FORCE you to play with other people.  Would it not make more sense to have a better lobby/joining system and give people more intensive to play with others.  If people could advertise what type of game it was then it would limit the hours of sitting in an empty map waiting for someone to randomly choose the same map you chose.  


I usually play with friends in real life but they don't play as much as me so I end up having to join a game with random people and VERY rarely will it turn out to be a good game.


I really hate being FORCED to play with people who don't even communicate with you and just plonk any old defences down no matter of their stats or the map.  I mean why oh why would you place a 10k magic barrier in front of a 350k squire barrier? lol WTF?  Why am I FORCED to play with these people?

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100% with this topic. 

The deck is just useless. We can't play in NM4 without DPS, but if we want win, we need 4 charater to build. 

Search the problem...

Most of player on NM4 are just leecher. The game despairs me. I just stop to play another time. ( Yeah the first it was when all items are reroll )

It's a long time than i haven't loot anything. 

So bye bye, maybe later. When game will finish or no. 

PS : Sorry for my english. 

PS 2 : I have 547h on DD2 and i play since December 2014. 

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@IGELmitDEAGLE quote:

2. How do you feel about the Hero Deck in solo play? The Hero Deck is the system that allows you to bring multiple heroes in a match and is organized on the Forge screen.


The question sounds like they are asking how people like bringing multiple heroes to the match. Of course most of them will say that they like it. 

Yes most of the questions seemed to favor the hero deck.

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@IGELmitDEAGLE quote:

2. How do you feel about the Hero Deck in solo play? The Hero Deck is the system that allows you to bring multiple heroes in a match and is organized on the Forge screen.


The question sounds like they are asking how people like bringing multiple heroes to the match. Of course most of them will say that they like it. 

Really Trendy? If the answer to this question is the basis for your belief that there is a lot of "positive" feeling about the hero deck, then I have lost a ton of respect for you. You really don't have any idea how people that the hero deck actually impacts feel about it.

People with <= 4 heroes should have no input on whether or how the hero deck should be changed. It has nothing but a positive effect on their game play.

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I'm so over this. Here is a last word on the topic though...

The Hero Deck and loot system are the two things that killed the game for me.

The endless BS comments and twisting of lousy metrics just make it abundantly clear that despite the awful design and game balance ramifications there seems to exist no intention of straightening things out. I've criticized this issue for over a year and a half to no avail. 

The hero deck has been discussed thoroughly and been shown to have major problems - objectively. TE is now saying in defense of the hero deck that an inaccurate survey showed that the overall feeling is that people like the deck. After pointing out the AGAIN lousy data collection and analysis the response is "Our data gathering doesn't stop with one survey."  It seems to be enough data to tell us that we don't know what were talking about though? Really? 

Sadly, it may be time to move on for many of us it seems. It will be interesting to see how this turns out. The game had a spike of interest but despite the release of Ascension pt.2 there has been a steady decline in users since the initial F2P weekend. (Took numbers from steamcharts)

Week 1 peak to week 2: -16.61%

Week 2 peak to week 3: -20.46%

All time peak to week 3 peak: -33.67% (Day of Asc. pt.2 release)

All time peak to today's peak: -42.54% (Sunday is normal peak day for week)

Hopefully changes are made and the game becomes successful. That said, I and other fans and content creators I've spoken with feel that there are major issues and due to what feels like shady maneuvers will have to withhold support or at least proceed with caution.

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Satori,

Though I agree with your opinion on the hero deck...  the decline is pretty much expected.   F2P opening will always draw a lot of onlookers.

Its like window shoppers...  most will browse and move on.  You want a lot of them but you know most are going to move onto the next store.  A drop-off of only 42% after 3 weeks of F2P opening is pretty damn impressive.   That means 58% of the folks the who tried the game are still playing 3 weeks later.  That is good news!  Right?


(Granted most of them have not hit the Loot or Deck issues yet..  but still... )

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2. How do you feel about the Hero Deck in solo play? The Hero Deck is the system that allows you to bring multiple heroes in a match and is organized on the Forge screen. limit you from bringing more then 4 character, thereby forcing you to looking for player to group up, and can easily exploit by rejoining the game if you are in a team.

Hows that?


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Tony,

Don't get me wrong, I hope the game does well and yes I agree the numbers are to be expected. Its just disheartening that these major issues keep lingering and with the numbers (while good I guess) not keeping DD2 in the top 20 I can't get the crew to jump on this for streaming/vid purposes. 

I also agree that the people still around likely haven't hit the endgame loot issues and the 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th hero struggle. Not sure when that bubble would pop. Could be weeks or months depending on how they play.

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@Satori quote:

I'm so over this. Here is a last word on the topic though...

The Hero Deck and loot system are the two things that killed the game for me.

The endless BS comments and twisting of lousy metrics just make it abundantly clear that despite the awful design and game balance ramifications there seems to exist no intention of straightening things out. I've criticized this issue for over a year and a half to no avail. 

The hero deck has been discussed thoroughly and been shown to have major problems - objectively. TE is now saying in defense of the hero deck that an inaccurate survey showed that the overall feeling is that people like the deck. After pointing out the AGAIN lousy data collection and analysis the response is "Our data gathering doesn't stop with one survey."  It seems to be enough data to tell us that we don't know what were talking about though? Really? 

Sadly, it may be time to move on for many of us it seems. It will be interesting to see how this turns out. The game had a spike of interest but despite the release of Ascension pt.2 there has been a steady decline in users since the initial F2P weekend. (Took numbers from steamcharts)

Week 1 peak to week 2: -16.61%

Week 2 peak to week 3: -20.46%

All time peak to week 3 peak: -33.67% (Day of Asc. pt.2 release)

All time peak to today's peak: -42.54% (Sunday is normal peak day for week)

Hopefully changes are made and the game becomes successful. That said, I and other fans and content creators I've spoken with feel that there are major issues and due to what feels like shady maneuvers will have to withhold support or at least proceed with caution.

SPOT ON... seriously TE just refuse to acknowledge that they (hero deck and loot drop) are major issues. will the drop in players steer them towards solving these issues - from the look of how they replied recently (stating that the survey poll is supportive of the hero deck), i doubt so. 

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@サイモン [世界政府] quote:

Play NM4 in a public match and then tell me the hero deck isn't a steaming pile of dog sh*t.

the fact of the matter is, the devs themselves don't do the following

 - play significantly enough of their own game (solo nm4 in nm3 ending gear to break into nm4) to understand our plight

 - play significantly enough to understand the consequences of free choice in public matches where fresh 50s just join nm4 thinking it is ok to leech and then after which starts going around hey guys i have a huntress in nm4 gear to dps and then start to say what issues are there with hero deck (whom right now the devs listen to saying that there's no issue)


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@サイモン [世界政府] quote:

Play NM4 in a public match and then tell me the hero deck isn't a steaming pile of dog sh*t.

I get mixed results.

I got called a leecher today when I joined and had the highest walls and supplied the traps for the group. So many A-holes online.

However last night I found a group who knew what they were doing, had 300k walls after everyone compared and it was a joy to play with them.

I find the better players are nicer to you as long as you have something to bring or offer to build. Bringing a DPS is fine, but if you have at least another builder to offer to help it will improve things immensely.

If you only have a DPS Huntress then yes you are wanting to be carried. That's not to say you can't join with one, you just should have some other character that may or may not be able to help.

People will appreciate that immensely.

I agree with you 100% on your HD comment though.

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One of the major themes of this game is to not be "Pay to Win." The only way to get more hero slots is by paying money. Giving people unlimited access to characters in-game could arguably be unfair to the non-payers. I feel an increase to maybe 6 characters would be fine? I personally only have 5 characters. The fifth one I leveled up and haven't used once -_-. I thought of all the ways I could combine him with my other builds and realized you can't modify your deck in game.

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@gigorahk quote:

One of the major themes of this game is to not be "Pay to Win." The only way to get more hero slots is by paying money. Giving people unlimited access to characters in-game could arguably be unfair to the non-payers. I feel an increase to maybe 6 characters would be fine? I personally only have 5 characters. The fifth one I leveled up and haven't used once -_-. I thought of all the ways I could combine him with my other builds and realized you can't modify your deck in game.

Easy.  Just make it so you can buy more hero slots with in-game gold...  Just a lot of gold.  

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I have heard many different reasons why the hero deck isn't a working system. I won't iterate on them.

So far, I have only heard one argument which I could consider a valid reason to keep the hero deck around: "Removing the hero deck would result in a pay to win situation."

An easy solution to this problem would be to let people make as many characters as they want without paying and solve the problem for good. Never to look at the issue again when new heroes/builds/difficulty levels are released.

Argument:

"Trendy will never do that? Make less money? Absurd!"

Counter-argument:

Trendy needs to think about long term. Considering all the cash shop options, if they needed to remove a paywall to get rid of a failing system and make the game fair for everyone then that is the correct decision from a business prospective. Higher user retention. More time played. More characters leveled. Higher odds of players sticking around to care enough to buy costumes, cool pets, bag space,storage space, interesting things to put in private taverns, etc etc etc.

The most successful free to play games have purely cosmetic or time saving (double exp/gold for a period of time or for buying into a sort of "premium membership")options in their shop.

The number of heroes you bring into a game is a core game function and a price tag shouldn't be anywhere near it.


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@JCourtney quote:


@gigorahk quote:

One of the major themes of this game is to not be "Pay to Win." The only way to get more hero slots is by paying money. Giving people unlimited access to characters in-game could arguably be unfair to the non-payers. I feel an increase to maybe 6 characters would be fine? I personally only have 5 characters. The fifth one I leveled up and haven't used once -_-. I thought of all the ways I could combine him with my other builds and realized you can't modify your deck in game.

Easy.  Just make it so you can buy more hero slots with in-game gold...  Just a lot of gold.  

Or tokens, and you can still make money because you offer slots for both in game currency and premium currency.

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I do not see any "cons" coming from hero deck.

Only that player switching classes to lvl them up, which I do not prefer but it is ok.

I reallyl ike that you have all free slots for all other type of classes so far.

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