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Green Mana amount feels very off


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I posted a bit of this in the stickied PS4 feedback thread, but I feel it's important enough to warrant its own thread.

Please note that I play either solo or split-screen only and I recognize that may drastically affect what I'm seeing if DD2 is being geared more towards 4 player MP only.

That being said, can someone help me understand how the amount of green mana works overall right now? I don't get it. 

Wave 1 - I've got enough to throw down 4 to 6 walls with one or two towers behind each. That seems about right.

Wave 2 - I've got enough to build out the rest of my towers (mostly) on most maps. That seems about right too.

Wave 3 - Throw down last couple of towers and start upgrading my 4 - 6 walls. (During wave, I don't spend any on repairs if I can avoid it)

Wave 4 - Spend all gained mana from monsters/chest(s) upgrading walls only. (During wave, I don't spend any on repairs if I can avoid it)

Wave 5 - Spend all gained mana from monsters/chest(s) upgrading walls only. 

There isn't enough mana to go around to do hardly any upgrades to towers. On a couple maps, I have enough to *maybe* get a couple towers to Lvl 2. For me, this takes much of the fun out of the game. With DD1 I had enough to upgrade towers and walls. They worked together with how my strategy was for that map. 

It just doesn't feel right at all  to me.

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Could you be more specific about the maps?  I haven't had this problem and most maps I can get Tier 3-4 on my defenses.  IMHO - you should not be upgrading walls, but the defenses behind them.  The idea being that the defenses kill anything before they get to the walls.  The wall need just enough life to allow the defenses to do their job.

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It's with nearly every map that I've played. I've played every map up to the last two on Dragonreach. There is just enough mana gathered to get each wall to its next level (typically L4 max on each). Even with upgrading walls I still will oftentimes lose them during wave 5. 

I'll play a few rounds poking at upping the towers instead. Seems that if I can only get 1 or 2 walls per lane upgraded per wave then that would lead me to believe I could only get 1 or 2 towers upgraded per lane as well, which from my experiences with DD1 doesn't bode well. My typical setup is a wall with 1 ea of: fire, freeze, earth, ballista, and cannon behind it. 

Are you playing solo?

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Sometimes it depends on the difficulty. In campaign, the chests don't give as much mana as they do in, say, Incursions. On 25++, you generally have enough mana to use up all DU before the start of the first wave.

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Not sure if this will help but when you play solo (maybe split as well idk) you have to run through all the loot and gather all the loose green gems Before you open a gem chest. Once you open the gem chest, all green gems on map Wil disappear.  This could cost you easily 1-200 greenbacks a round. In regular MP this doesn't happen. Hope that helps. Also dedicate 2 heroes to be builders so their low level towers hit harder.  The hero you fight with should not be building anything ever unless emergency during combat. Just fyi. GL

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Thanks, Smoke. I saw about the green mana bug so I do grab it before opening my one chest for the next wave. I've got a squire and apprentice I use for building (both at L20) and a huntress or monk (both at L19) for combat.

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Just ran a couple tests:

Siphon Site D

Starting Mana from chest – 630

For all waves, fighting with Huntress standing on pipes tocover all 4 lanes without moving much

Wave 1

  • Build per lane (4x)
  •       2 Spike Blockades (wide lanes)
  •       1 flameburst
  •       1 frostbite
  • 1 flameburst covering stairs by chest next to East Causeway
  • 30 mana remaining
  • End of wave – 323 mana (gain of 290)
  • Wall by south corridor at 20% health (kobolds right out of the gate)

Wave 2
  • Added per lane (4x)
  •       1 earthshatter tower
  • Upgraded 20% health wall to L2
  • 460 mana from chest
  • Added per lane (4x)
  •       1 Ballista
  • Repaired all walls - 32 mana
  • Upgraded 6 towers to L2
  • 1 mana left over
  • End of wave – 294 mana (gain of 293)

Wave 3

  • Upgraded 5 towers to L1
  • 460 mana from chest
  • Repaired all walls – 24 mana
  • Upgraded remaining towers to L2
  • Upgraded one tower to L3
  • 80 mana remaining
  • End of wave – 373 mana (gain of 293)

Wave 4

  • Repaired all walls - 17 mana
  • Upgraded 3 towers to L3
  • 460 mana from chest
  • Upgraded 5 towers to L3
  • 16 mana left over
  • End of wave – 84 mana (gain of 68)

Wave 5
  • 460 mana from chest
  • Repaired walls (15 mana)
  • Upgraded 5 towers to L3
  • Wave 5 total defense stats:
  •       14 towers at L3
  •       3 towers at L2
  •       7 walls at L1
  •       1 wall at L2
  • All defenses standing at end of wave


Greystone Plaza

Starting Mana from chest – 700

For all waves using huntress standing on central bridge tocover all 4 lanes (L20 2436 DPS). Keeping close eye out for kobolds and wyverns.

Wave 1

  • Build per lane (4x)
  •       1 spike blockade
  •       1 flamestrike
  •       1 frostbite
  •       1 earthshatter
  • 1 flamestrike by rockets by innkeeper hills to cover eventual wyverns
  • Remaining mana – 20
  • End of wave – 261 mana (gain of 241)

Wave 2
  • Repaired walls – 14 mana
  • Added per lane (4x)
  •       1 ballista
  • 440 mana from chest
  • Added per lane (4x)
  •       1 cannonball
  • Upgraded 7 towers to L2 (2 at each lane where possible, 1 at remaining)
  • Remaining mana – 17
  • End of wave – 264 mana (gain of 247)

Wave 3
  • Repaired walls – 20 mana
  • Repaired 1 ballista – 11 mana
  • Upgraded 4 towers to L2
  • 440 mana from chest
  • Upgraded 9 towers to L2
  • All towers (except wyvern flamestrike) now at L2
  • All walls at L1
  • Mana remaining – 23
  • End of wave – 270 mana (gain of 247)

Wave 4
  • Repaired walls – 21 mana
  • Upgraded 2 towers to L3
  • 440 mana from chest
  • Upgraded wyvern flamestrike to L2
  • Upgraded 4 towers to L3
  • Mana remaining – 39
  • End of wave – 282 mana (gain of 243)

Wave 5
  • Repaired walls – 23 mana
  • Upgraded 2 towers to L3
  • 440 mana from chest
  • Upgraded 4 towers to L3
  • Upgraded “! boss” lane wall to L2
  • Mana remaining 49
  • Wave 5 loadout:
  •       3 walls L1
  •       1 wall L2
  •       12 towers L3
  •       9 towers L2
  • Repaired non upgraded (this wave) towers – 45
  • Mana remaining – 1
  • All defenses standing at end of wave (2 walls at 5%)

I am fairly certain the only reason this worked is that I had the huntress sitting in a central location and the RNG monster generator was kind to me (no sending out of 7 Orcs at once in one lane). I also, luckily, nailed every kobold I saw in most lanes.  I'm certain if I didn't have a ranged character it would not have been pretty.

I'll do another test later with my monk to see how it goes on Greystone (more level appropriate).

But, even if I do succeed with beating the level, my original statement/question still stands. To me, compared to DD1. The amount of green mana I can use to upgrade towers feels off.  Perhaps that's just how it is now and it's not expected to upgrade everything to L4/L5 by the last wave. It does feel very weird to not upgrade walls...

This entire thread also isn't meant to say, "I can't beat the levels!!" as I certainly can. This is more about me wondering how it's going to be on harder difficulties when not using a ranged DPS character that can cover the worst damage offenders in each lane at once.

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Well my guess is that those low level maps just don't offer many gems. Those maps unfortunately can't even be played in high level games... almost every map gets locked and we are left with only 5 maps... can't even play throne room on incursions. .. doesn't make sense but it's the way it is for some reason so I'm going to assume those maps just don't give out many gems since they are only allowed to be played before level 25. I don't know why it was so hard for trendy to add all the regular maps to incursions but apparently it was and that is probably part of why not many gems come from those maps. 

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I only play solo (if what im about to mention was already said i apologize) and i am curious what u do as ur character while a match is ongoing? lets say your on a map that u set up with 4 choke points (i often start like this using 2 walls at each, 3 towers minimal at each) but u only stick around one and fight the whole time, crystals seem to disappear eventually at the other choke points. I noticed when i started flying around the map and never stayed at one choke point for too long i had more green to work with. When im lvling my tower build toon and dont switch to a dps i let defenses do 90% of the work and just run around collecting. If i am on a dps i try to give help at each choke point briefly, evenly, to both help as best and evenly as possible while getting green before it poofs. Prior to doing that i had similar opinion as urs but now that i gather them before they poof i usually have enough to, at round 5 (map depending) to have 4-5 choke points wit 2 lvl 2 walls, 4-5 cannon towers at lvl 1, with 1 to 2 of them at lvl 2, per choke point. This is not an end game strategy but its doing me good till i get my account in order. I never lose anything before lvl 20 this way and usually end up with more green than i need. (By like 200 or so) 

Also dont forget to try to upgrade before repairing. Its not much, but it saves on the green. It can save u that 5 more green u may have needed for one more upgrade.

Again if this stuff was mentioned i apologize, i have bad eyes so i have to limit the amount of reading i do per go :/

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Edit: when i said walls at lvl 2 and cannons at lvl 1-2 i meant lvl 1 being  upgraded once, lvl 2 twice, so 150 green spent into a "lvl 2" wall/cannon on upgrades. I tend to feel quantity over quality (at least before ur in the lvl 20+ playlist) is more effective for my playstyle.

Now if ur having green issues in the lvl 20+  stuff then my info may still help but probably wont yield a "game changer" result like it did for me.

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MysticWriter, that's what I do for sure as well. Running to pick up and only focusing on certain lanes when I need to (such as protecting the two window controls in the throne room). And always upgrade before repair. 

I'm still hovering around Lvl 20 - 22 with my four toons, so haven't gotten to the harder plays yet (freestyle or Gambler's Pass). So am not sure how it goes on those yet either.

One thing to note that I mentioned only partially, is that doing what I listed above with my two tests, I certainly can beat most stages. UNLESS, that is, we get screwed on the lane difficulty. My gf and I did a co-op play yesterday on Forgotten Ruins where we had two red and one orange lane. We were completely decimated. There just wasn't any way to keep up with all the larger enemies. 

I've,  at minimum, a couple hundred hours in playing DD1, so I'm not a complete slouch with understanding placement and lane blocking. It was just way too much for my defenses to handle.

In reading through another thread today, it struck me that that person's thoughts, and mine are similar, but we've gone through them in different ways. The thread was saying that this pre-alpha build feels like there is more focus on the "running and gunning" play style and with less focus on tower strategy. I think that's spot on.

One of the things I enjoyed about DD1 was setting up my defenses, then sitting back a bit and seeing how they did (not totally idle, focusing on some of the big guys when I needed). Then improving on where I see gaps in my defense. Doing this over and over to find the best placement of towers for all lanes, THEN spending time running around mashing things with my Blasticus while not having to worry too much about the towers.

This may be the direction that Trendy is thinking of heading with this, but the point of a pre-alpha is to work out and get feedback on the direction (and bugs) the software is heading.  For me, this is a big game-play issue that takes a large bit away from what I loved about DD1, and is why I wanted to get it out there.  I certainly appreciate everyone's thoughts on it thus far.

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Im surprised you feel the amount of green isnt enough then. Sounds like we do identical gameplay (what u last described is dead on to what i like) but there seems to be something drastically different in our experiences. I recently tried the soonest map u can in the 20+ playlist and the last wave had 2 red bars and a purple while a green had an !. I thought i was a gonner for sure but my defenses did most the work.  My walls broke but my line of towers finished the wave off before they got taken out. My tower toon is lvl 22 and my dps 19. I think what may help is try to focus on tower health for gear. I make that my main focus with speed as a second (speed seems to yeild better dps on dummies than power, up to a point). Make sure you have 2 "defense stat lines" per piece of gear on ur tower toon. I find it better to have a way lower lvl glove that gives both defense health/speed than anything hero related high lvl gear. Having rediculous tower health yeilds u spending less green (dont keep repairing, if a wave only brings a wall to 3/4th hp itll prolly survive another wave if u upgrade ur dps towers instead and then u can jus upgrade during the fight/ at wave end if it can survive till then) as long as u dont repair in small amounts. I do all of this and unless im doing something of a higher lvl I can win with extra green before starting the last wave. When i did the 20+ i had jus enough.

Hope this info helps, its jus how i do things and i could be "wrong" but it seems to work for me. 

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I always pick up all the green mana from the enemy drops before opening a chest.  It seems to me that the enemy dropped mana just disappears when you open a green mana chest.

That might be the difference in why you are seeing limited mana and I haven't had the issue.  Since, i have gotten my Monk/Huntress built I rarely use the squire on any maps any longer so mana is never usually a problem now.

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I agree that squire defenses seem to be a major resource drain as they can all be broken and require constant maintenance.  They just don't have the resistance they should have. I had my squire set with maximum health and even blockades with 70k hp will require constant attention.  Meanwhile my lightning auras with very little health easily survive wave after wave with only fixing/upgrading between rounds or every other round.

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@Smoke-Town quote:

I agree that squire defenses seem to be a major resource drain as they can all be broken and require constant maintenance.  They just don't have the resistance they should have. I had my squire set with maximum health and even blockades with 70k hp will require constant attention.  Meanwhile my lightning auras with very little health easily survive wave after wave with only fixing/upgrading between rounds or every other round.

Id like to hear more about your playstyle as I have been curious about why it seems the  squire cant hold up yet is a green dump. Add me if u dont mind - Systematic_-_-_

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