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Anndgrim

A message to NM4 players about Hero Decks

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What u say is nonsense

@Anndgrim quote:

So if you don't, then please, go build up some decent builders and come back later.

u seem angry because u're not able to build everything, that's too bad. u can go build up some decent builders too.

u can build each nm4 map with a nm4 geared frost dude, nm4 geared waller dude and nm4 geared traptress, using geysers to slow more. Then u'll be happy when dps huntress come to help u.

stop rage, and let ppl play, if u're no happy, kick them or play private.

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@JCourtney quote:

Being forced to have active DPS character is killing getting geared on builders. 

i think the problem is exacerbated by the stat system DD2 decided to go with.  in DD1 even your builder characters had plenty of incidental DPS stats on the gear.  it wasn't a situation where you build OR you DPS.  if you built you still had half power in DPS and if you DPS'd you still had passable tower stats

they should really rethink the loot stats in this game

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I really don't get what the problem is with that.

@ram1024 quote:


@JCourtney quote:

Being forced to have active DPS character is killing getting geared on builders. 

i think the problem is exacerbated by the stat system DD2 decided to go with.  in DD1 even your builder characters had plenty of incidental DPS stats on the gear.  it wasn't a situation where you build OR you DPS.  if you built you still had half power in DPS and if you DPS'd you still had passable tower stats

they should really rethink the loot stats in this game

I build nearly everything 100% of the time, except walls (because walls are the most ignoreable part of a defense if your players are good, in short they repair lol) and most of my builders are build up by just my DPS char farming the gear. Having a DPS char (or Tank) is not hindering getting the gear you want for your builders, it just helps clearing a map more easier! You just need one DPS item set not even optimise for anything (maybe for huntress because she profits the most of it), but this one set you can give then to an APP or squire or monk, with whoever you want to farm gear for your builder and done! You get all the gear you want and are still usefull then figthing with builder gear. It isn't hard to switch gear around, takes just a few seconds, i do it all the time too.

Having an DPS char kills nothing except monsters and helps you win a map. You get your gear anyway.

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@Colonel Rambo quote:

What u say is nonsense

@Anndgrim quote:

So if you don't, then please, go build up some decent builders and come back later.

u seem angry because u're not able to build everything, that's too bad. u can go build up some decent builders too.

u can build each nm4 map with a nm4 geared frost dude, nm4 geared waller dude and nm4 geared traptress, using geysers to slow more. Then u'll be happy when dps huntress come to help u.

stop rage, and let ppl play, if u're no happy, kick them or play private.


I seem angry? Cause you seem too.


Funny thing is I soloed NM4 Greystone up to wave 5 just a couple of hours ago.


But the thing is : Why the *** should 3 DPS Hunties show up on a map with nothing more than the bow they dropped after 20 minutes of NM3 and their 125k gold Charge Sphere and expect the fourth guy with "Builder" written on his forehead to bring 4 NM4 builders painstakingly built up and 1 million gold + 240 tokens worth of spheres.


Stop acting as if I should be grateful because someone who categorically refuses to pull his own weight deigned  showed up in a game.


It's funny that you seem to assume that I only have builders. I also have a 650 iPwr Huntress and when I pull her out it is usually the best one on the map.

But the fact is, unless I show up having done all the grind that others seem to think they're too good to do, if I queue in pub, I am about 95% sure of not getting past first wave.


Especially since the majority of huntresses who show up make the map harder rather than easier by their sole presence (difficulty scales based on the number of players even in public as far as I can tell).



If I decided to just kick them I'd basically have to kick 8 out of 10 players who show up.

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Gearing builders absolutely does suck even as a solo player as you want your DPS out during the combat phase or you can't handle as high of a difficulty. 

I wrote a suggestion in the suggestion forum about letting us select which class we get drops for so we can gear a character without having to use that class during the combat phase. 

https://dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/127313/let-us-set-the-smartloot-class

I also think leveling alts is an incredibly obnoxious process that needs to be toned down. Or they need to completely re-do how gearing/specing works. I doubt they will do that at this point as they wouldn't want to render all the purchased extra hero slots worthless.

I also wrote a suggestion to buff bonus XP from 50s https://dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/127815/increase-the-lvl50-bonus-xp though I think some kind of bigger change may be needed for the game to survive. I don't see that many people being willing to gear a dozen+ different heros just because every single tower/object in the game has a completely different set of gear (or more) to go with it. 

Perhaps moving certain gear modifiers to spheres (or another rune type system) and making gear less specialized would help. Also adding a system for saving sets of spheres/runes/whatever so you could rapidly change your build with the click of a button would help. That way you wouldn't have to have multiple duplicates of every hero. Another thing that could help is giving every hero two sets of gear/spheres. One for the build phase and one for the combat phase. That way every single hero could be built to contribute in both phases and the issue of getting builder gear when you only have a DPS of a different class (usually huntress) would be less of a problem. /shrug

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@Anndgrim quote:


@Sirloin quote:


@Anndgrim quote:

You don't have to spam the same map.

You can do it far more cleverly and it's not like the requirements for the first Nightmares are incredibly high.


Seriously all builders have done it and if nobody "bothered" doing it the game would just simply die because a community entirely made of DPS huntresses won't get anywhere.

Far more more cleverly you say? Care to be more specific?

The "Other people have done it" argument doesn't mean the process is in a fun state.

I dislike the current loot system personally.

I think grinding is what you put in your game when you want to take the fun out of a game by diluting it completely.


And you have things like Incursion, or asking for help.

I've put a lot of low iPwr players through Greystone NM3 just because they asked. It's not like NM3 isn't full of players who can solo it easily but aren't for NM4 yet.


NM3 has that advantage of dropping items that are good enough to make the map easy.

Good on you man. Helping new players get geared up has always been one of my favorite things to do. Especially in DD1. I would make games all the time carrying high survival and invite newer players in to get as much loot as they could hold. Having the ability to help out your buddies/random people  is so important in any game.

You're comment about grinding is spot on. Grinding =/= content.

Which is why I have an issue with the current EXP system. If I have a buddy who wants to play DD2 I would like to be able to rush him up to level cap in a reasonable amount of time. I ,as a new player going from 1-50,  feel that the leveling experience is a grind.


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@Borg quote:

Gearing builders absolutely does suck even as a solo player as you want your DPS out during the combat phase or you can't handle as high of a difficulty. 

I wrote a suggestion in the suggestion forum about letting us select which class we get drops for so we can gear a character without having to use that class during the combat phase. 

https://dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/127313/let-us-set-the-smartloot-class

I also think leveling alts is an incredibly obnoxious process that needs to be toned down. Or they need to completely re-do how gearing/specing works. I doubt they will do that at this point as they wouldn't want to render all the purchased extra hero slots worthless.

I also wrote a suggestion to buff bonus XP from 50s https://dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/127815/increase-the-lvl50-bonus-xp though I think some kind of bigger change may be needed for the game to survive. I don't see that many people being willing to gear a dozen+ different heros just because every single tower/object in the game has a completely different set of gear (or more) to go with it. 

Perhaps moving certain gear modifiers to spheres (or another rune type system) and making gear less specialized would help. Also adding a system for saving sets of spheres/runes/whatever so you could rapidly change your build with the click of a button would help. That way you wouldn't have to have multiple duplicates of every hero. Another thing that could help is giving every hero two sets of gear/spheres. One for the build phase and one for the combat phase. That way every single hero could be built to contribute in both phases and the issue of getting builder gear when you only have a DPS of a different class (usually huntress) would be less of a problem. /shrug

As far as picking which class loot drops goes, It's an interesting idea. But, I think you could solve the problem by having a good spread of loot drop for all classes with a leaning toward the class you are currently playing. Also, just so I understand you, you're talking about weapons right? Seeing as how armor of all types will drop during a given match.

My solution to the exp problem would be to remove all XP orbs, character bonuses etc and just increase the amount of exp from insane, NM1-4 over what is already received in hard. Resulting in 1-2 hours to fully level a new character regardless of how many level 50s you have.

I still don't understand how hard mode gives less exp than insane/nightmare modes. The only reason I can come up with is it's a hard gate put in by Trendy to force 8+ hours of grinding out of new players before they reach 5 difficulty modes of end game content.

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@Sirloin quote:


@Anndgrim quote:


@Sirloin quote:


@Anndgrim quote:

You don't have to spam the same map.

You can do it far more cleverly and it's not like the requirements for the first Nightmares are incredibly high.


Seriously all builders have done it and if nobody "bothered" doing it the game would just simply die because a community entirely made of DPS huntresses won't get anywhere.

Far more more cleverly you say? Care to be more specific?

The "Other people have done it" argument doesn't mean the process is in a fun state.

I dislike the current loot system personally.

I think grinding is what you put in your game when you want to take the fun out of a game by diluting it completely.


And you have things like Incursion, or asking for help.

I've put a lot of low iPwr players through Greystone NM3 just because they asked. It's not like NM3 isn't full of players who can solo it easily but aren't for NM4 yet.


NM3 has that advantage of dropping items that are good enough to make the map easy.

Good on you man. Helping new players get geared up has always been one of my favorite things to do. Especially in DD1. I would make games all the time carrying high survival and invite newer players in to get as much loot as they could hold. Having the ability to help out your buddies/random people  is so important in any game.

You're comment about grinding is spot on. Grinding =/= content.

Which is why I have an issue with the current EXP system. If I have a buddy who wants to play DD2 I would like to be able to rush him up to level cap in a reasonable amount of time. I ,as a new player going from 1-50,  feel that the leveling experience is a grind.


The curve slows down way too much.

I don't know what it is about how they handle XP but I quickly realized after grinding pet affection points for the previous monthly that I would level up about as fast, when already in high levels (40+), playing easy than playing hard.

(About 1 level every two maps)

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@Sirloin quote:


@Borg quote:

...

As far as picking which class loot drops goes, It's an interesting idea. But, I think you could solve the problem by having a good spread of loot drop for all classes with a leaning toward the class you are currently playing. Also, just so I understand you, you're talking about weapons right? Seeing as how armor of all types will drop during a given match.

Well, weapons and armor. While the armor types are all the same, the affixes they roll depend on which class you're playing. You can use the generic affixes on any class, but you won't get something like serenity aura radius or hearty blockade unless you're playing your monk or squire in the combat phase. So getting blockade gear for your squire currently requires you play a squire in the combat phase. 

As an example, with my idea you could play your DPS huntress in the combat phase but pick squire for your loot type if you're currently most in need of upgrades for your squire builder and get those class specific affixes on armor in addition to getting the weapons.

Having all class gear/affixes drop/roll would be a solution also, but would be more RNGtastic. It's already difficult to get a drop that has all the stats you want and affixes you want on the same piece of gear when it only drops loot targeted to your combat phase class. If they had loot drop for all classes they'd need to make some of the useless combinations gear currently rolls go away or it would be even harder to find the right combination of stats (IE: don't give me hero health and damage on a legendary that has an affix that scales with defense power). 

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Hi

When i join a game nm4 i got one problem i need to carry the whole team :S is not fun 

but if i join a game with good people is super fun :)

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@Tmeik quote:

That's the stupid thing i ever heard.

I'm gonna pull an appeal to motive and guess you're in that category.

It's that fresh new thing called pulling your own weight.


I'm tired of showing up on a map with my NM4 Waller, my NM4 DP Squire, my NM4 Fire Mage and my NM4 aura monk and know that there's 90% chance that everyone else will show up with no one else but a often mediocre Huntress and a sign that says "Carry me through this".


And as I've replied to others who pull the "You should be grateful". I have a NM4 Huntress and I bring her when I know I'm not the only builder in the group.



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@Anndgrim quote:
@Tmeik quote:

That's the stupid thing i ever heard.

I'm gonna pull an appeal to motive and guess you're in that category.

It's that fresh new thing called pulling your own weight.


I'm tired of showing up on a map with my NM4 Waller, my NM4 DP Squire, my NM4 Fire Mage and my NM4 aura monk and know that there's 90% chance that everyone else will show up with no one else but a often mediocre Huntress and a sign that says "Carry me through this".


And as I've replied to others who pull the "You should be grateful". I have a NM4 Huntress and I bring her when I know I'm not the only builder in the group.



It's a rough spot man. I started a thread in suggestions about about this exact issue and some potential fixes.

https://dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/128091/matchmaking-has-to-go

If you care to have a read.

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@Anndgrim quote:

Funny thing is I soloed NM4 Greystone up to wave 5 just a couple of hours ago.

I also have a 650 iPwr Huntress and when I pull her out it is usually the best one on the map.

GG you're a god. 6904404229_6f4120c914.jpg

What i mean is the following point;

* Or you just start the game / like to play dps, and join nm4 maps with dps; 

* Or you played alot, made strong builders and you are able to build nm4, with 3 chars, so an open slot for dps. And all ppl play together. 

* Or you just mad and you open posts in forum saying "haaa a message to ppl who can't help me build in nm4".

Then u flame saying what i quoted, u're in the 3rd point dude, 2 bad.

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@Colonel Rambo quote:


@Anndgrim quote:

Funny thing is I soloed NM4 Greystone up to wave 5 just a couple of hours ago.

I also have a 650 iPwr Huntress and when I pull her out it is usually the best one on the map.

GG you're a god. 6904404229_6f4120c914.jpg

What i mean is the following point;

* Or you just start the game / like to play dps, and join nm4 maps with dps; 

* Or you played alot, made strong builders and you are able to build nm4, with 3 chars, so an open slot for dps. And all ppl play together. 

* Or you just mad and you open posts in forum saying "haaa a message to ppl who can't help me build in nm4".

Then u flame saying what i quoted, u're in the 3rd point dude, 2 bad.

*sigh*

Sorry, I did not realize I was dealing with an angsty teenager.


Let me get this straight.

  1. I make this thread saying people need to bring something other than a DPS
  2. I get told that "I'm just mad because I can't build".
  3. I get told that I should be grateful that DPS deigns showing up in my game because I couldn't do anything on my own because everyone seems to assume that I can only build.
  4. I post my stats to say "No I'm not here because my feelings got hurt. This is a legitimate topic."
  5. I get insulted and derided by some idiot who is desperate to turn this into a name calling contest.
  6. Therefore I am the one who is flaming.


Because I ask people to change the way they play so as to not be a burden to everyone and so that not every single public game ends in a total disaster.


P.S. : Thinking that posting "LOL!" gives you automatic superiority is not clever, it's just obnoxious as ***. What are you? 14?


I suppose that if that wasn't already agreed upon and I was showing up with a thread saying "Stop pressing G just as you arrive on the map" I'd get told something along the lines of :

6904404229_6f4120c914.jpg

 you just mad because you can't build the whole map in 30 seconds.

Then u flame saying what i quoted, u're in the 3rd point dude, 2 bad


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Why u need to justify yourself, i'm just lolling at u. If people want to play dps let em play dps, if u're no able to build without em don't be mad about that.

And i'm not 14, i'm 6.

ps: saying "i can solo a map so ima 2 stronk" is flaming.

now i'll stop to read ur posts, im laughing too hard that im pooping on my layers.

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This topic is really lol :D wonder why it isn't closed yet by the mods.

Like always i am kinda super fine with alot of dps or anyone joining, doesn't even need to be lvl 50 if they know what they do. If they are bad, then well i don't play with them. It's so easy. =) It's not about everyone having a builder or dps, it's about a good talk and players who know what they do.

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Here's a next level derail. None of what the op said can possible be true. It can't be true because that would mean that he was building everything while the other three only DPSd and as we all know the hero deck prevents this from happening.




Kappa

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@Chappyy quote:

Here's a next level derail. None of what the op said can possible be true. It can't be true because that would mean that he was building everything while the other three only DPSd and as we all know the hero deck prevents this from happening.




Kappa

What? I'm not sure what you are on about? How does the hero deck either prevents a single person from building or 3 other people from playing DPS?


@Colonel Rambo quote:

Why u need to justify yourself, i'm just lolling at u. If people want to play dps let em play dps, if u're no able to build without em don't be mad about that.

And i'm not 14, i'm 6.

ps: saying "i can solo a map so ima 2 stronk" is flaming.

now i'll stop to read ur posts, im laughing too hard that im pooping on my layers.

No, that is by definition not flaming.

Being needlessly insulting and derisive however is. Something you might be familiar with.


You came in and said "you're just mad because you can't build" and I replied that you were wrong.
Then I said that my huntress was good because I saw the "you just mad because you can't DPS" coming from a mile away.


@dreamanime quote:

This topic is really lol :D wonder why it isn't closed yet by the mods.

Like always i am kinda super fine with alot of dps or anyone joining, doesn't even need to be lvl 50 if they know what they do. If they are bad, then well i don't play with them. It's so easy. =) It's not about everyone having a builder or dps, it's about a good talk and players who know what they do.

Knowing what they're doing isn't going to do much difference in a NM4 map if they're not able to equip level 50 equipment.

I didn't come here raging as I didn't particularly care about the issue since I spend most of my time time playing in private or at least with a group.

I came here to propose a solution to the fact that I noticed while queueing in public that it almost always end in a quick defeat.


I will say that yes, I did get irritated when after all I did was basically propose an implicit "rule" of meta people came down to insult me and attempt to mock me.

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@Anndgrim quote:


@Chappyy quote:

Here's a next level derail. None of what the op said can possible be true. It can't be true because that would mean that he was building everything while the other three only DPSd and as we all know the hero deck prevents this from happening.




Kappa

What? I'm not sure what you are on about? How does the hero deck either prevents a single person from building or 3 other people from playing DPS?


This was sarcastic because the devs said a key reason the hero deck was created was to prevent one person from doing all the building. Which by this post is clearly not happening.

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@Chappyy quote:


@Anndgrim quote:


@Chappyy quote:

Here's a next level derail. None of what the op said can possible be true. It can't be true because that would mean that he was building everything while the other three only DPSd and as we all know the hero deck prevents this from happening.




Kappa

What? I'm not sure what you are on about? How does the hero deck either prevents a single person from building or 3 other people from playing DPS?


This was sarcastic because the devs said a key reason the hero deck was created was to prevent one person from doing all the building. Which by this post is clearly not happening.

Oh, well that's true. I suspect the Trap/Frost religion started there too since it only takes 3 builders and you can bring a DPS and at some point some people forgot why people did it and started thinking it was the only way possible.


I don't like traps though and I don't want this game to be a game where a single build prevails on every maps, so I build towers.

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Nah no need to lock this topic XD, it's just a fun rage threat and perfect for some serious statements, kappa.

@Anndgrim quote:


@dreamanime quote:

This topic is really lol :D wonder why it isn't closed yet by the mods.

Like always i am kinda super fine with alot of dps or anyone joining, doesn't even need to be lvl 50 if they know what they do. If they are bad, then well i don't play with them. It's so easy. =) It's not about everyone having a builder or dps, it's about a good talk and players who know what they do.

Knowing what they're doing isn't going to do much difference in a NM4 map if they're not able to equip level 50 equipment.

I didn't come here raging as I didn't particularly care about the issue since I spend most of my time time playing in private or at least with a group.

I came here to propose a solution to the fact that I noticed while queueing in public that it almost always end in a quick defeat.


I will say that yes, I did get irritated when after all I did was basically propose an implicit "rule" of meta people came down to insult me and attempt to mock me.

First most don't come to mock or insult you, they just state their opinion too and it's just not yours. You should deal with it and accept others too.

And someone who knows what he is doing is just fine in NM4 too even if he isn't 50, sure it's a kinda waste, but anyone who wants to play a builder in a wave is kinda like that anyway. RIGHT? They can still be more usefull by repairing, cc'ing, kiting, killing through lift or crush on frozen mobs, pulling agro, support buffing, there is ALOOOOT they can do. And that is what lets you win or lose a map. Not if someone is 50 and good geared. This just helps on the DPS part, which is a huge part too, but doesn't nessessary means a win.

My suspection on your part is, the players and dps are actually fine, just they didn't know how to play. You say yourself you don't like to build with traps, and that your build is fine for nm4. Any DPS can't make you worse, they can just buff you in that sense then. So the reason is probably more that the players don't know how to play around your build. Traps are so populare not because of their damage (it's second lowest of all def), it's because they are NO BRAINER, everyone can work around it with randoms. But a good build with towers require some kind of knowledge on the game to work with them.

100% sure you could win with 3 not lvl 50 guys, which repair, kite and stall a nm4 map with easy in comparison to players who just shoot or do nothing because they are builder and want to afk. Tho NM4 is so easy currently that often 2-3 are AFK.

Better look at what they do wrong, and maybe tell them teach them how to behave, or what to do. Seriously the problems most people have with public, i don't really know them. Sure sometimes there are trolls, but they are trolls and do stuff intentional to lose your map. Most of the time players don't know stuff, and if you teach them they learn and thank you most of the time too for it. Because alot of issues are only appearing in NM4.

Tell them to look at the resistences and fight where they are strong against, that will raise their damage up to 75%. Tell them if they are squires to get the shield sphere and block. Place a serenity down for them and upgrade it maybe, tanking is easy. Tell them to repair. If they don't do tell it again, you never can mention this part enough because thats a big part which people forgot easily. Tell them not to go close to Oger who are close to your towers, there are still SOOOOOO many players who don't know that the oger only jumps if someone is close. Tell them to focus air always first, if your defense is not build against it. Get them to Body block in hard cases the air bomber.

Multiplayer is not about having the best gear and a char for every situation, it is about making the best of what you have with the people you have and communication. It's about having a good time and talking, laughing and enjoying the game. Sure loosing can happen, but you can still have a good time while doing so :D. Talking helps so much.


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