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Caimen0

Pseudorandom Ultimate++ generation

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Now that we've seen our first change from the CDT that has meet some real opposition, I think now is an appropriate time to begin thinking about other controversial matters.

Dungeon Defenders endgame is, by design, very grind based, yielding very poor quality items a large majority of the times you run a map. The goal is, for most people's standards, to get a usable item of a certain variety and move on to other interesting maps. However, most of us on today are not of that group of people. We are the "hardcore" crowd, that will tunnel in on one item that we want, usually of exceedingly high quality, and will continuously run a very small selection of maps (sometimes just one) until we get what we want.

But what if you never get what you want?

Most of the people who are still around and playing for 3, 4, 5000 hours are searching for ultimate++. Be that armor, weapons, pets... Everyone has that one item that they don't have that they really want, and they want it to be better than everyone else's.

Some people have found the item that they are looking for, usually after several hundred hours of work, but here's the catch about these ultimate++ items: you are never guaranteed to ever get them because the game works on an random system that gives no partiality to the user. Harry is really the perfect example of this (although whether or not he would agree with my proposition I do not know): 440 Crystalline Dimension runs, countless ultimate EGS, and... never to see an ult++.


I propose that the system used to generate ultimate++ weapons, armor and pets be slightly amended to gradually increase the chance of an ult90 / ult93 / ult+ rolling ult++ for every time the roll fails. Upon an ultimate++ item being rolled, the bonus chance is reverted to zero.

The problem to that system: Upon running Lab Assault, countless Ultimate pets and weapons are generated every time you complete the map. This would significantly increase the ultimate++ armor spawn rate from Lab Assault far beyond what is intended for any map. My solution would be to restrict this bonus per item type, so that only ultimate armor spawns add to the increased chance for ultimate++ armor to be rolled. When one runs Tinkerer's Lab campaign, for every Blaster that rolls ult, only the ult++ roll of Blasters is affected.

This system does several things:

1) It rewards those who spend long amounts of time trying to get "that one item"

Even if the ultimate++ item spawned is not the one any given player is looking for (DPS gladius instead of tower gladius for example), this system encourages the player to continue by showing tangible marked progress toward the one item they really want.

2) It reduces the (sometimes massive) feeling of unpleasantness when a player receives an ultimate++ item that is not up to their quality standards

When you are farming for "that one item", chances are you're not going to get it on your first ultimate++ of that item. I personally spent nearly 50 hours on King's game campaign attempting to get a ++, only to be met at the end of those grueling runs by this. For another example, suppose on his 450th CD run that harry pulls a 300^ ult++ EGS. I think it would be an understatement to say that harry wouldn't be very pleased. I'm sure others have their own stories of this type. Introducing this new system would lessen the blow caused by such a find, as the player knows it won't take a long (In some cases, frankly absurd) time to get their next one.

Some Practical Numbers

When an ultimate item is spawned, the game rolls a ~1/42 that the item in question will become an ultimate++. For ultimate+, this roll is a mere 1/8.

  In the system that DD currently runs in, this 1/42 or 1/8 is not affected at all by any external multiplier; you stats, your level, you time played, your achievements... you get the idea. The system I would like to see implemented would gradually increase the chance for an ultimate++ item after every failed ultimate++ roll - possibly maxing out at a number that, while not necessarily guaranteeing an ultimate++, would bring the chance up gradually, possibly even by tenths or hundredths of a percent, to a 21/42 or 1/2 roll for ultimate++. These are of course arbitrary numbers that can be modified later on, but I wanted to bring it up to illustrate what I want the system would do.

What this system does not do:
1) Decrease the rarity of high end ultimate++ items

Ultimate++ Seahorses, Crystal Blades, Monkeys, and other such items will still remain absurdly low, as the chance of simply getting an ultimate is so bad that the idea of farming enough ultimate to guarantee an ultimate++ should land you in an asylum.

2) Change the overall experience of casual players

Any casual player does not play this game for hardcore farming and will likely not often repeatedly farm the same map enough to trigger a significant modifier on ultimate++ roll rates. Any ultimate++ will still be reasonably random, as there is generally no significant effort being put forth to reach one, and any that decide to bridge the gap to get an ultimate++ that they really want should be rewarded.

To the CDT: should this system be implemented, is it possible to store the roll modifiers for the items that is inaccessible to users, such as encrypted in the DD files, or otherwise stored in Trendynet servers? If the answer to this question is a no, then it would be inadvisable to implement.

I would love to know everyone's thoughts on the matter, as this is something I've been thinking about for a few months now.

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Sounds like a good idea. I'm not sure about lab assault. Will they roll less ult ++ with the modifications then? Me personally, I had more than enormous luck with ult ++, be that armor or weapon! Would be nice if this could be implemented somehow. It certainly would give me ample incentive to run ww again. Might also change the value of labruns I think.




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Heh, going after the item generator already (not that I can't see where you're coming from here...)

Jokes aside, there's currently a rather large technical obstacle to proposals like this one: preserving the data about this "bonus". While adding the option to switch off the move while building I found I was unable to add the value to the save file (pending further investigation as to the exact reason, but I have a pretty good idea). Not a huge issue for general options, but data like this needs to be save specific. Even if that wasn't the case, we're still talking a rather large chunk of data to hold each players reward history (and if anyone still cares about it, you're basically giving hackers a switch to generate "legit" items as well). There are plans in the works for tweaks to the generator (and there are tweaks in the first update as well) but we do have to work within certain boundaries and this is almost certainly outside those.

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@Veetoo quote:

Sounds like a good idea. I'm not sure about lab assault. Will they roll less ult ++ with the modifications then? Me personally, I had more than enormous luck with ult ++, be that armor or weapon! Would be nice if this could be implemented somehow. It certainly would give me ample incentive to run ww again. Might also change the value of labruns I think.


Overall this will increase the amount of ultimate++ armor that you get from lab runs. One aspect of the change was to make the amount of ultimate++ armor not overwhelmingly common from the map. If the item types are not differentiated between in the roll modifier, the number of weapons and pets rolling ultimate will wind up increasing the amount of ultimate++ armor that spawns, possibly significantly.



@CrzyRndm quote:

Heh, going after the item generator already (not that I can't see where you're coming from here...)

Jokes aside, there's currently a rather large technical obstacle to proposals like this one: preserving the data about this "bonus". While adding the option to switch off the move while building I found I was unable to add the value to the save file (pending further investigation as to the exact reason, but I have a pretty good idea). Not a huge issue for general options, but data like this needs to be save specific. Even if that wasn't the case, we're still talking a rather large chunk of data to hold each players reward history (and if anyone still cares about it, you're basically giving hackers a switch to generate "legit" items as well). There are plans in the works for tweaks to the generator (and there are tweaks in the first update as well) but we do have to work within certain boundaries and this is almost certainly outside those.

Yeah, that is the exact obstacle I was thinking about when thinking about the system. Simply adding a .txt file to so many accounts in the end is a considerable amount of data to put on servers, and putting it natively on the computer allows hackers another way to hack ++ items. It might be possible to create an obfuscated file, or store it obfuscated in a file that is already present. But again, that is assuming you can actually add things to the save file. If it is not possible to hide the number set rather well, I think it would be a bad idea to implement unless you simply don't tell anyone you added it in. (and I'm pretty sure you can't do that)

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A question.

Is it possible for myth and higher tier items (armor and wep or maybe all items) to spawn withOUT hero run speed??  I find it such a useless stat, usually even beyond level 50.  Or make it the smallest chance to get rolled perhaps?

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@anotherengineer quote:

A question.

Is it possible for myth and higher tier items (armor and wep or maybe all items) to spawn withOUT hero run speed??  I find it such a useless stat, usually even beyond level 50.  Or make it the smallest chance to get rolled perhaps?

Beyond 100 hero speed you have to have diamonds or other pets to make a significant difference in hero speed.

As is stands, it is certainly possible for items to spawn without hero speed - it just seems for some strange reason that they have a tendency to spawn with it being rather high.

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@Caimen0 quote:


@anotherengineer quote:

A question.

Is it possible for myth and higher tier items (armor and wep or maybe all items) to spawn withOUT hero run speed??  I find it such a useless stat, usually even beyond level 50.  Or make it the smallest chance to get rolled perhaps?

Beyond 100 hero speed you have to have diamonds or other pets to make a significant difference in hero speed.

As is stands, it is certainly possible for items to spawn without hero speed - it just seems for some strange reason that they have a tendency to spawn with it being rather high.

Indeed.  I would rather have a wep with high hero attack rather than hero speed though.  Aware of the 100 point speed cap.  Just saying I don't think there is much point of items spawning with hero speed mythical gear and beyond.

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well, i see crazy's worries about hackers beeing able to generate ult++ easily and i agree on that matter. Never the less i also like the idea to reward player for consintency in farming for the desired ult++. So if the system proposed was already based on ult spawns, and failed ult++ rolls, why not to add another crafting system (yes i consider making diamonds crafting) for creating ult++. For example you would have to dismantle 50 ultimate armor pieces to obtain ult armor tokens and then enter your tavern to spawn ult++ armor piece. Also you could dismantle your ult+ to get 4 tokens, and ult++ for 20 tokens. So that way, if for example ult ++ spawned without h attack and hp with negative tower stats(which is extra bad luck) we could simply turn it to tokens again :D dont know what to do about specific rewards however, like ecannon etc. Not to mention this would add new nice for of currency, much better than useles cubes.

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@BorchTrzyKawki quote:

well, i see crazy's worries about hackers beeing able to generate ult++ easily and i agree on that matter. Never the less i also like the idea to reward player for consintency in farming for the desired ult++. So if the system proposed was already based on ult spawns, and failed ult++ rolls, why not to add another crafting system (yes i consider making diamonds crafting) for creating ult++. For example you would have to dismantle 50 ultimate armor pieces to obtain ult armor tokens and then enter your tavern to spawn ult++ armor piece. Also you could dismantle your ult+ to get 4 tokens, and ult++ for 20 tokens. So that way, if for example ult ++ spawned without h attack and hp with negative tower stats(which is extra bad luck) we could simply turn it to tokens again :D dont know what to do about specific rewards however, like ecannon etc. Not to mention this would add new nice for of currency, much better than useles cubes.

This sounds like a great idea from a hackers perspective. Mass duplicate easy to get ult armor and spawn infinite legit ++. 

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Diamonds aren't crafting. Crafting implies multiple outcomes with several different ingredients, which the coal/small coal system does not offer. Furthermore, I do not believe an actual crafting system would be beneficial to the game. When you add those tokens into the game you are creating yet another extremely abusable currency into the game, except this one can spawn ultimate++ reliably. Anyone with Cheat Engine and half a working brain can hack in infinite mana; anyone with half a working brain can hack in infinite crafting tokens.


DDE had a crafting system in it, and I hated it with every fiber of my being. I'd rather we not bring over the worse aspects of that game.

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@curtisgk quote:

This sounds like a great idea from a hackers perspective. Mass duplicate easy to get ult armor and spawn infinite legit ++. 



@Caimen0 quote:

Diamonds aren't crafting. Crafting implies multiple outcomes with several different ingredients, which the coal/small coal system does not offer. Furthermore, I do not believe an actual crafting system would be beneficial to the game. When you add those tokens into the game you are creating yet another extremely abusable currency into the game, except this one can spawn ultimate++ reliably. Anyone with Cheat Engine and half a working brain can hack in infinite mana; anyone with half a working brain can hack in infinite crafting tokens.

if such is so, why is coals system implented at all, people use coals and diamonds  as a currency, also i cant see how would be hacking it easy, maybe im less than half brained, most of people hacking on ranked use only basic stat modifying and proffessional hacked items are found (and paid for) in mana shops which already sell event items what so ever. also maybe we should make coals and such tokens amount tied to our accounts server side for ranked, that way it wouldnt be dupeable right?

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@BorchTrzyKawki quote:if such is so, why is coals system implented at all, people use coals and diamonds  as a currency,

Because duping coal is far more complicated than duping mana. For mana its a simple one step process; I have no clue how coal duping works. Furthermore, diamonds only have a limited usefulness in that they can be used as builder pets and Lab assault stat sticks. (as an ingame item and ignoring the currency value)

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@Caimen0 quote:


@BorchTrzyKawki quote:if such is so, why is coals system implented at all, people use coals and diamonds  as a currency,

Because duping coal is far more complicated than duping mana. For mana its a simple one step process; I have no clue how coal duping works. Furthermore, diamonds only have a limited usefulness in that they can be used as builder pets and Lab assault stat sticks. (as an ingame item and ignoring the currency value)

You say "another extremly abusable currency" and "anyone with half a working brain can hack in infinite crafting tokens." 

 and then you say duping coals is in fact complicated, and that you dont know how to do it, are we both half a brain?

i wrote crafting, but i meant the same thing as it goes for diamond spawning i thought i made it clear enough, 

so if a token would be as hard to dupe as coal, would it still be too easy for hackers to dupe? and if so then perhaps would assigning number of tokens to account rather than having them as a single item and storing server side only be enough. i really wish there was such a system, without it, when i cant see getting closer and closer to item i want, i give farming up so often after seeing mass of junk.

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Either way, it's a terrible idea that can lead to easy mass abuse by hackers to spawn legit ++. Duping items isn't that difficult to do and it would let hackers spawn as many ++ as they want and it'll never fail an item check. The current system makes it very difficult to spawn legit ++ armor, your proposed method would make it take a few minutes to spawn a few good sets. 

So in conclusion: Your idea is bad.

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@curtisgk quote:

Either way, it's a terrible idea that can lead to easy mass abuse by hackers to spawn legit ++. Duping items isn't that difficult to do and it would let hackers spawn as many ++ as they want and it'll never fail an item check. The current system makes it very difficult to spawn legit ++ armor, your proposed method would make it take a few minutes to spawn a few good sets. 

So in conclusion: Your idea is bad.

Thats just sad. If you like my idea at its base (without considering hacking)  Maybe you could come up with something a like to make it unhackable, my knowledge over dd1 engine is minimal to none sadly. I have 1,5k hours in dd1, maybe i dont farm to often, but it was only once i droppedult++ armor, well im not really encoureged to double my hours for just another piece. I know that this just seems like bad luck still i feel punished for nothing.

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