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Fozzie

So many unskilled players in NM4

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There are plenty of resources to learn how to play the game with combos and what each class and their skills are useful for, just takes a few moments to look or ask.


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One of the problems with looking for resources available is how volatile the game is. Many resources created you may not know the validity of just due to a patch coming out and changing it. 

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I love reading the comments from all this Super Mega Ultra players :D

- What?? You don't have ipwr 69 69 69?? Get out of my game Pleb!!!

Long live the Plebs! Like we say on Twitch: FREEEEDOM

And don't forget folks, Put your Faith in the Light!, Kappa.

Kappa_R.jpg

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What if, you had to collect tokens in each Nightmare levels in order to join the step above?

You need kobolds tokens to go in NM2, you need wyvern tokens to join NM3, you need (large ammount) of Dark mages? tokens to enter NM4.

That way you have to farm some of each NM stages to enter the harder stuff.

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...so many new huntresses, few days old and dealing good damage cause of the way-too-good-new-bows. 
most have no second char or even know how to build with a huntress and they sure as hell are all HD specced and can press LMB.

But SADLY that's totally enough even in incursion to make a 4-player-run easier than solo. 1 carrier, 3 carriees...

i even had ppl play non-50s in ramparts nm4 incursion. like a squire with 5.7k Health.

In the end we played with him, since he joined over and over again (so much for kicking...) and i had no way of excluding him properly.

He turned out out be a nice guy that can repair walls just as good as anyone else and i personally felt he was contributing more by just repairing and AE-stunning occasionally, than by leaving and having us to play the map with a group of 3.


So beside restriction for endgame content, there are deeper problems, because if you put it to an extreme a lvl1 hero can help repairing your fourth lane and being actually viable and making the run easier. That should not be possible, i feel there is some complexity missing, preventing those things.
And lastly balance is pretty much missing on the DPS side.

While balance will and can be done later on, i feel the launch of the game (yes it was launch) was a desaster in the sense of people playing to level50 and then skipping all the content and simply leech in nm4/nm4 inc. the missing of any requirements for content accelerated things pretty much.


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I really don't think ipwr restrictions will do much good at all. It will just make people grab ipwr upgrades that are stat downgrades. What's needed is to track average performance on maps. If someone have yet to clear a NM3 map, or have cleared a few while in a group but usualy die on the early waves then he's most likely not ready for NM4. However, if someone have cleared all, or a good percentage, of the NM3 maps he's played lately, then he's likely ready to try NM4. Basically like a division system. Fail on too many public NM3 maps in a row and you get demoted and only allowed to play NM2 or lower in public.


That way it will at least be about how good your gear actually is and how good you actually play instead of being about how many high ipwr random stat greens you have found.

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Hey all! 

I understand your frustrations, but let's look at it from a different perspective.

Yes, there is the option to set it to private and play solo or invite your friends BUT what if we educate and help these players instead?

I have run about 6 or 7 NM4 runs and in each run I had a newer player who was ipwr geared for NM4, but might have not had the build/game knowledge to play NM4 alone.

I took the time to show them how to build properly and why you build this here and this here, etc.

It took maybe an additional 5 mins and I did it while I was building anyway, so it is not like I had to go out of my way to show them what to do :)

Between the waves I also reminded them to repair the walls and to upgrade traps in certain locations.

Help everyone out, we were all there once :)

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I Want to play high nightmare lvls, im stuck on nm3 first map , i dont have friends that play this game, and i want to play nm4. but its impossible with ppl that dont know the basics and they are on nm3 etc. I cant improve my gear Etc if ppl join that maps with squires with 30k hp on shields or *** like that. then what can i do to play hardmode maps?¿

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@Arkaeron quote:

I Want to play high nightmare lvls, im stuck on nm3 first map , i dont have friends that play this game, and i want to play nm4. but its impossible with ppl that dont know the basics and they are on nm3 etc. I cant improve my gear Etc if ppl join that maps with squires with 30k hp on shields or *** like that. then what can i do to play hardmode maps?¿

At the very least, educate them on the current meta. Tell the Squires to get Hearty Blockade gear and spec 100 HH 15 DH, etc and if they are good, they will listen.

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@Spaceballs the Username quote:


@Arkaeron quote:

I Want to play high nightmare lvls, im stuck on nm3 first map , i dont have friends that play this game, and i want to play nm4. but its impossible with ppl that dont know the basics and they are on nm3 etc. I cant improve my gear Etc if ppl join that maps with squires with 30k hp on shields or *** like that. then what can i do to play hardmode maps?¿

At the very least, educate them on the current meta. Tell the Squires to get Hearty Blockade gear and spec 100 HH 15 DH, etc and if they are good, they will listen.

90% ppl just dont care, they think that you are who dont know to play and sometimes they insult me for trying to help them, Yesterday playing on Nm2 with a party of 2 guys, they kicked me for literaly say: man, i have  3k Defense power and i have better turrets than you so i can build it  if you want. ( 5100 Dps  my turret vs 2700 dps his turret)

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@chesticles quote:Help everyone out, we were all there once :)

Except that, if "there" is NM4 with no idea how to play the game, a lot of us never were.  A lot of us were either intelligent enough to intuit the basics of the game or we learned them along the way because we consumed content (by choice and necessity) in the order it was meant to be consumed. 

Teaching people how to repair things in freeplay normal is one thing but teaching them how to do it in the middle of the hardest content in the game is evidence of a deeply flawed gaming experience.  Being nice to a never ending stream of people deprived of a quality experience is a nice sentiment, but it isn't a fix.

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Fun fact: Reading all this seems so common people beating NM4 without a drop of sweat, BUT so far the only guy ever to show real proof of beating Betsy on NM4 was a stream where he and his folks used stacks of green aura with a bug where the hero damage was doing millions DPS.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, or even better, show me your stream doing it legit. I'm really curious, thx.

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@mmaakk quote:

Fun fact: Reading all this seems so common people beating NM4 without a drop of sweat, BUT so far the only guy ever to show real proof of beating Betsy on NM4 was a stream where he and his folks used stacks of green aura with a bug where the hero damage was doing millions DPS.

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, or even better, show me your stream doing it legit. I'm really curious, thx.

Well to be fair, people are saying they beat a NM4 map, they didnt say they beat NM4 betsy incursion or anything like that. Beating gate on NM4 does technically mean you beat a NM4 map.

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@chesticles quote:

Hey all! 

I understand your frustrations, but let's look at it from a different perspective.

Yes, there is the option to set it to private and play solo or invite your friends BUT what if we educate and help these players instead?

I have run about 6 or 7 NM4 runs and in each run I had a newer player who was ipwr geared for NM4, but might have not had the build/game knowledge to play NM4 alone.

I took the time to show them how to build properly and why you build this here and this here, etc.

It took maybe an additional 5 mins and I did it while I was building anyway, so it is not like I had to go out of my way to show them what to do :)

Between the waves I also reminded them to repair the walls and to upgrade traps in certain locations.

Help everyone out, we were all there once :)

You know, I understand you want to take the side of the newer player because technically what they are doing IS allowed in the game. And I understand that teaching newer players can really help them understand some of the mechanics in DD2 much faster. 

The problem isnt that we should be teaching them though. Its that somehow they made it all the way to NM4 without knowing how to play the game. The reason they dont know how to play is they get carried to 50 and them intently jump to NM4 where now your telling us is the other people in the parties responsibility to teach them, because they are new, when it should have been THEIR responsibility to learn the game threw normal progression. Thats just baloney if you ask me.

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@chesticles quote:

Help everyone out, we were all there once :)

There is no problem helping everyone out, it's nice. But even if you teach them, they still have problems applying what they learned - making everyone waste time. 8/10 runs I ask people who joins me why they don't repair, they will say "Just hit 50 and join quickmatch NM4 Incursion". This is a flaw in the game, imo.


I made a similar thread about this same problem too sometime ago: https://dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/126756/too-many-leechers-private-game-bug

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@Spencer1K quote:

You know, I understand you want to take the side of the newer player because technically what they are doing IS allowed in the game. And I understand that teaching newer players can really help them understand some of the mechanics in DD2 much faster. 

The problem isnt that we should be teaching them though. Its that somehow they made it all the way to NM4 without knowing how to play the game. The reason they dont know how to play is they get carried to 50 and them intently jump to NM4 where now your telling us is the other people in the parties responsibility to teach them, because they are new, when it should have been THEIR responsibility to learn the game threw normal progression. Thats just baloney if you ask me.

Hey Spencer1K,

I just wanted to clarify a few things :)

I never said it was your responsibility to teach anyone anything, I was simply looking at things from a different perspective and suggesting that everyone help each other out.

No one is expected to help, but helping others will help foster a better, helpful DD2 community. 

If you feel differently, that is perfectly ok, and I respect that stance on the issue ^^


@taratey quote:


There is no problem helping everyone out, it's nice. But even if you teach them, they still have problems applying what they learned - making everyone waste time. 8/10 runs I ask people who joins me why they don't repair, they will say "Just hit 50 and join quickmatch NM4 Incursion". This is a flaw in the game, imo.


I made a similar thread about this same problem too sometime ago: https://dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/126756/too-many-leechers-private-game-bug

Hi taratey,

I agree, there probably should be some type of requirement for NM4 or even end game content, so users who are not experienced with the game have time to play lower difficulties to get comfortable with the maps, builds, repairing, etc.

How to implement this is another issue though.

I am sure it has been talked about internally, and the best way to resolve this issue for the greater good of the community will be made in due time. ^^

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@chesticles quote:@taratey quote:


There is no problem helping everyone out, it's nice. But even if you teach them, they still have problems applying what they learned - making everyone waste time. 8/10 runs I ask people who joins me why they don't repair, they will say "Just hit 50 and join quickmatch NM4 Incursion". This is a flaw in the game, imo.


I made a similar thread about this same problem too sometime ago: https://dungeondefenders.com/2/topic/126756/too-many-leechers-private-game-bug

Hi taratey,

I agree, there probably should be some type of requirement for NM4 or even end game content, so users who are not experienced with the game have time to play lower difficulties to get comfortable with the maps, builds, repairing, etc.

How to implement this is another issue though.

I am sure it has been talked about internally, and the best way to resolve this issue for the greater good of the community will be made in due time. ^^

A quick and easy fix would be to add new quests.

Beat Betsy on Freeplay Hard to unlock nightmare. Beat Betsy on NM1 to unlock nm2 etc. This will solve half the problem, people joining lategame nm without any gear. Even if you get carried through each map you'll get some drops.

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@chesticles quote:Yes, there is the option to set it to private and play solo or invite your friends BUT what if we educate and help these players instead?

They have enough modes to learning, not highest difficulty. Is some of they "special" and can skip all long progress?


When game was in Pre-Alpha state, difficulty didnt scale of players number. So 1 builder could carry 3 leachers. Now another situation, when except builder - other players should be on geared DPS toons or have some builders too... So game punishes all trying to carry leaches.

We obviously should have option to create premade lobbies with randoms and some restrictions (gear/gametime, some mythic score or rank, etc)

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The idea of completing 25 NM1 maps before you can play NM2 and so on, would at least gate NM4 and NM4 Inc away from people who are unaware of basic game techniques. Through the necessity of doing 75 Nightmare maps at least players would gain the skills.

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Unlocking certain modes as you progress will probably help.

Like to unlock nm1, beat 10 insane maps. To unlock nm2 beat 10 nm1 maps and so on. Makes it so that the player can't just dive in to nm4 shortly after reaching 50 or if the player has no experience with the previous modes/difficulties. Learning the difficulty will naturally come on its own.

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Rather than ipwr gates or quest completion gates, I would rather see DD1 style resists and player seeking mobs.  Nothing drives home the message that you shouldn't be in a difficulty level quite like dying every 10 seconds.  Unfortunately, the abysmal loot structure doesn't allow stacking resists to be a satisfying experience.

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@Fozzie quote:

The idea of completing 25 NM1 maps before you can play NM2 and so on, would at least gate NM4 and NM4 Inc away from people who are unaware of basic game techniques. Through the necessity of doing 75 Nightmare maps at least players would gain the skills.

This is an interesting start but people would surely start to complain because this feels as superlative of the monthly quests we have been farming.

The reason why I don't play NM 2/3/4 yet is because I'm not good enough and not because I haven't enough wins on my counter.

I think it could work to bind the access to higher difficulties to some kind of challenges/achievements. (Somehow I have to think about Super Mario 64 where you have to use the collected start to jump into the buildings...)

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