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ZeaZe

How did people figure best setups, builds, choices etc?

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I'm wondering how people figured traps and aura are better than most towers, and that huntress poision tower is very weak.. but I don't see anywhere to read reasons and numbers.. why is the best choices the best? 

I see a lot of items that upgrades poison tower, if getting the best of the best combination, maybe poision tower would be a strong single target tower? idk, but who knows? and how do you know? .. No detailed descriptions are in-game, I'm just wondering how people can be so sure.


TL;DR

How can people know what's best when there's no detailed/advanced descriptions ofc towers, spells, enchants and whatnot yet?

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Doesn't seem too reliable, although the best source we have at the moment, yeah?

It just annoys me to see how people think it's a fact and they're 100% sure that's one way is the best atm?
Guess there's still many combinations, combos and setups that haven't been tried, and in every map.

And also.. don't players think it's kind of sad that the actual builders seem kind of useless if traps are better in ever other situation.

Or the fact that people choose to play a class just to focus on one tower, trap or alike.. it just seems boring and unbalanced, but people just accept it?


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Zeaze how many hours have you played in DD2 and how long you are part of community? You can try whatever you like but when somebody with 300+ hours played on DD2 will tell you something you should at least consider it as a fact and try if it works. Some combos are just weak, other are supreme strong this is just how it is now. It is slowly changing but some things will not change so fast. So read patch notes and try your own combos or listen to others and try what is the best.

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what is happening with the mines is that they scale a great deal, and weapons that have trip wire also help a great deal. And maps with some more Defence points alow for buffs of the frozen tower, with that apprentice build. Right now the mine build is among the best. with a hearty blockades/tower health squire... With a frosty fire build.. Elemental chaos is also used. Before this, the huntress was garbage.


there is other builds that work moderately well. Mines are just the easiest to set up.


There is detailed descriptions on peoples armor/trinkets and in the stats you chose, the tower discriptions. and other manners of ways to promote strength and power of certain things in the game.

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2 words... maybe four.  Frosty Power... relic Frosty power gear.


Frosty power: Gives a % DP bonus to things that are in the effect.  Traps can be in the effect without being targeted, thus not destroyed.  The max Frosty power that most people can get now is 50%... 10% on each gear piece that has the buff.


Old school players... have some relic Frosty power items (for example I have one piece with a 32% increase)... thus they can get huge bonuses to traps hitting targets.  I have heard of people have 100% and higher percentages.


People mimic what they see and that is effective, thus why you see a lot of others trying it.


My opinion, YMMV.

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@jason4570 quote:

2 words... maybe four.  Frosty Power... relic Frosty power gear.


Frosty power: Gives a % DP bonus to things that are in the effect.  Traps can be in the effect without being targeted, thus not destroyed.  The max Frosty power that most people can get now is 50%... 10% on each gear piece that has the buff.


Old school players... have some relic Frosty power items (for example I have one piece with a 32% increase)... thus they can get huge bonuses to traps hitting targets.  I have heard of people have 100% and higher percentages.


People mimic what they see and that is effective, thus why you see a lot of others trying it.


My opinion, YMMV.

Those weapons that give more than 10% need to be wiped from the game IMO... I haven't seen a piece of gear drop greater than 9% 

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@Gunghoe quote:

Before this, the huntress was garbage.

Bla bla bla... Hunty was ok even before Passives or new up-scaling system introduced.


@ZeaZe quote:Guess there's still many combinations, combos and setups that haven't been tried, and in every map.

Well, after Ascention update release - ALL ranged towers were like a trash... Now they're better, but still useless on Nightmare 3-4 modes.

Why? Answers quite obvious:

1. Mostly they're single target.

2. They're expensive and dont worth 40-50 du. Btw cheaper towers (like traps) get much more dps per up after new system.

3. They cant be effectively buffed. +10% from boost aura? when at the same time frost can boost traps/auras for +50-80%

4. They can be destroyed by kbtls, and ogres. But if u build them in safezone in result not enough range.


And as was told above, there's enough players with 1k hrs ingame. And they tested ALL setups, combos on all maps and difficulties.

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People tend to figure things out through trial and error. Then there's also the fact that they added a small amount of builds so people are pretty much pigeon holed into choosing one from the very limited amount making people have very similar builds. 

The main 2 builds currently would be squires hearty blockade for much better walls, & apprentices frosty power for stronger traps & auras. 

But that said you don't need to just copy what other people do, for example I used Arcane barriers, Frost bites, LSA, LA, Serenity, Anti air, & Explosive traps as my main towers & was able to do nm1 easily & started doing nm2 before I stopped.

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Best setups are figured out by trial and error. There is no secret nor shortcut to that, really. Lose the map 9 times, 10th time will be a win.

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@ZeaZe quote:

And also.. don't players think it's kind of sad that the actual builders seem kind of useless if traps are better in ever other situation.

Or the fact that people choose to play a class just to focus on one tower, trap or alike.. it just seems boring and unbalanced, but people just accept it?


Yes. But it will be fixed I'm sure. Possibly in the next patch. For a brief history, before traps the best build involved water traps with monk aa towers, and lightning strike auras (LSA uber) with boost auras to kill ogres. Using that combo, you could kill Betsy in mere seconds on the hardest level. Then LSA and water traps got hit with the nerf bat, and now normal LA's are better than the uber LSA's and water traps are unreliable.

Once boost auras and LSA's got "fixed", traps and frosty towers became the new meta. Normal towers were useless because they lacked range, lacked dps, cost more mana, and would be destroyed in 1 hit by a high level ogre.

In the last patch Trendy mentioned that they had an adjustment for traps but it wasn't the right adjustment so they left it out. Towers got a huge buff in that patch. They can now match traps in dps, but when you factor in mana cost and risk of towers getting destroyed, traps still easily win. I would guess Trendy has it figured out now and we will see a trap nerf very soon, possibly another tower buff as well.

TLDR

On lower difficutly maps you won't see much of a difference between traps and towers. Towers are viable on these maps. On nm3+ towers are not viable because they will get 1 shot by the baddies.

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Alright well, thanks for all the answers, guess it's just a matter of wanting to play an unfinished game that'll change throughout the time playing or not.
I just thought towers r supposed to be main defense damage whilst the others might be more situational, maybe they r supposed to and will be fixed, then I'll be happy, sure.

Seems kind of harsh to be building up a character around trap, or leveling up 3 huntresses to have phys/elem traps and a dpser.. then if changes/updates r made any person that did that would have 2/3 huntresses with weird ass stats that doesn't work, kind of waste of time?
And r the game harder or easier than it should be atm? Cause if it ends up being harder than its current state, then everyone who has completed would have to complete again to get the real feeling..?

I don't know, can't quite relate.



@atharix quote:

Zeaze how many hours have you played in DD2 and how long you are part of community? You can try whatever you like but when somebody with 300+ hours played on DD2 will tell you something you should at least consider it as a fact and try if it works. Some combos are just weak, other are supreme strong this is just how it is now. It is slowly changing but some things will not change so fast. So read patch notes and try your own combos or listen to others and try what is the best.

atharix I'm not sure what you mean with this comment.. I'm not saying anyone is wrong regarding what is strongest, I'm just asking HOW people can be so sure.

Doesn't really matter how long time I've played a game, I still need stats, numbers, tests, statistics n whatnot in any game to be able to understand why it's best and not just that it is the best choice..

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Basically if you have frosty fire staff and frosty power items trap build is the easiest way to win, meaning you can play your builders in wave and gain passives for them, and progress.

Without frosty your only buff is the woefully expensive and under powered boost aura. This doesn't stack buffs like frosty and only passive increase is on relic, even that is small.

So this is why as a whole we have got to the current meta, frosty fire frosts targeting trap areas with hearty walls. Traps, using elemental chaos uber, can either be magical of physical damage for 20 DU so they are far superior DU for DU than anything else and more versatile.

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[[118966,users]]

Yeah, it's a part of Early Access game:) Seeing it being developed right under your nose, touching freshly baked content and seeing through all the tweaks.. Builds up a history;) And much deeper knowledge than someone who joins at a finished product. I like all that.

About Huntress: you do not need to have two different Huntresses builders to build both Elemental Chaos and Explosive Traps. One Hero is enough. You simply equip / unequip EC Uber Sphere whenever.


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To explain the situation without the need for any numbers, there's some rather easy decisions that people had to make.

First off, Frosty apprentice is just too goddamn good at the moment. Up to 50% (or higher with legacy gear) more DP on your defenses, plus extra attack speed (which you can only get through SAS points anywhere else) through Frostfire makes it a ridiculous combo with any towers that it can work with.

Problem is, the only defenses that can use this bonus are the defenses that are basically right underneath the mobs. So, traps and auras. The only damaging aura is the lightning aura at the moment, which is really underwhelming at the moment after the nerf. So we are left with explosive traps and blaze balloon.

Explosive traps are just so much better in the damage and DU department compared to the blaze balloon, and on top of that, you have the tripwire passive which gives it another 10% damage boost, and the huntress uber that makes explosive traps capable of doing both physical and magical damage.

For the walls it's fairly easy to go for squire. The squire blockade is already better than the apprentice's (it doesn't blow up after a bit of damage), and that difference is only made bigger through the Hearty Blokkade passive and the monk boost aura being able to boost the HP of a barricade by an additional 25% and provide protection at the same time.

That leaves up with the setup basically everyone in the endgame is using.

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@Seph quote:

ZeaZe

Yeah, it's a part of Early Access game:) Seeing it being developed right under your nose, touching freshly baked content and seeing through all the tweaks.. Builds up a history;) And much deeper knowledge than someone who joins at a finished product. I like all that.

About Huntress: you do not need to have two different Huntresses builders to build both Elemental Chaos and Explosive Traps. One Hero is enough. You simply equip / unequip EC Uber Sphere whenever.


Oh yeah, I heard about this, but that is not seen as a bug? I mean, theyre not planning to fix such thing?
Just seems weird to win the game now if the game is easier than it's supposed to be, but kind of cool if harder.
Then at release people be like "lol you completed it in alpha when it was easy"

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Taking stats is not useful yet since the balance keeps changing.

Mostly we have personal experience. I have tried the tower build in NM4 and got rolled in the first wave. I have accidentally forgotten the frosty power on my App and got rolled in the first wave with the trap build. Doing the trap build correctly I can complete Liferoot NM4 fairly consistently. Ogres walking over walls is the biggest problem. Flying kobolds are a problem when playing squire and the biggest threat is not the center.

BTW you only need one huntress with DP + DH or DCD and equip/unequip the elemental chaos uber as needed when playing solo. An HD + AP huntress is nice to have when playing with a group.

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wow, 3 replies while I was writing that up :) Anyway, it is not a bug being able to switch out ubers. I think the idea is to allow more towers than just the 4 options. All heroes now have 5 towers if you buy all the ubers.

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@ZeaZe quote:Oh yeah, I heard about this, but that is not seen as a bug? I mean, theyre not planning to fix such thing?

Just seems weird to win the game now if the game is easier than it's supposed to be, but kind of cool if harder.
Then at release people be like "lol you completed it in alpha when it was easy"

It is meant to be that way. You can freely swap spheres while building defenses and effects stay. That was the whole idea behind Uber Spheres.

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They should really remove legacy gear already, it's insanely lame to have people hold on to better gear than is currently obtainable. Also kills the joy for new players

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@Ubara-tutu quote:

wow, 3 replies while I was writing that up :) Anyway, it is not a bug being able to switch out ubers. I think the idea is to allow more towers than just the 4 options. All heroes now have 5 towers if you buy all the ubers.



@Seph quote:


@ZeaZe quote:Oh yeah, I heard about this, but that is not seen as a bug? I mean, theyre not planning to fix such thing?

Just seems weird to win the game now if the game is easier than it's supposed to be, but kind of cool if harder.
Then at release people be like "lol you completed it in alpha when it was easy"

It is meant to be that way. You can freely swap spheres while building defenses and effects stay. That was the whole idea behind Uber Spheres.

They should make a nicer way of switching between the turrets, or simply just let the uber sphere add another turret to your turret-line/ability bar. 

But yeah.. okay, fair enough. =)

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@Agronic quote:

They should really remove legacy gear already, it's insanely lame to have people hold on to better gear than is currently obtainable. Also kills the joy for new players

What do you mean? I just heard about more bagspace n stuff

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@ZeaZe quote:What do you mean? I just heard about more bagspace n stuff

I think he means items that were obtained on release day. Like Frosty Power, for example. On release, you could have 40-50% Frosty Power on a single item. Passives got nerfed (now you can have up to 10 % on a single piece) ever since, but all those old items were not deleted, so some people still have them. People call it "Legacy gear".

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