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mmm

nerf frost already!

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seriously how can such a toxic mechanic be still in game?


it makes no sense from every point of view, first of all a frost tower is supposed to bring CC not dmg


like in every strategy game there must be a choice between a safe rout but with less dps and the other way around, frost provide the most cc in the game WITH the most dmg boost in the game

its absurd


also the passive adapt well only with traps making it the only progress viable build, its nonsense that a mage tower makes all other mage towers useless (and squire too ofc)


the dmg boost must be HUGELY nerfed and must be on enemies not on location so every tower benefit from it


also the tower MUST call for upgrades its nonsense such a powerful tower that function at his best at lvl 1 lol 

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I feel like your forgetting that you have to build for those towers. Sure they are strong, but no stronger than the 100,000 DPS of other towers, of the 150,000 HP of some walls.
Also I don't think you understand what "toxic" means. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it toxic.

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yeah they are stronger than any other tower in the game, and i do knwo exactly what toxic mean: frost


something the completely change the gameplay of an ENTIRE GAME, leaving no other viable tactic to be played

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In that case, Once frost is nerf'd how do u plan to play nm4?.  Im just wondering, and thats prior to getting geared by nm4 . If anything I'd say lots of the towers either have to by buffed, or empower needs buff to make towers viable. But thats IMO

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@mmm quote:

yeah they are stronger than any other tower in the game, and i do knwo exactly what toxic mean: frost


something the completely change the gameplay of an ENTIRE GAME, leaving no other viable tactic to be played

Simply saying "They are stronger than any other tower" does not make it true, and your definition of Toxic is, in itself, toxic.

If frost towers do in fact leave the game so that there is "no other viable tactic to be played" how do you plan on playing the game if this nerf you want comes into effect? Are you going to magically come up with another way to play the game? Or do you simply not understand what the word viable means?
A quick google search will tell you that the definition of viable is as follows: capable of working successfully; feasible. Or maybe you are confused as to what the word only means, another google search will tell you the definition: alone of its or their kind; single or solitary.

You say you want this change but if you were to get your way then, according to you, the game would then become completely and utterly unplayable.


TL:DR

-What you are saying contradicts itself

-I was intentionally toxic in this post to help you better understand the word

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@LastTourniquet quote:

Simply saying "They are stronger than any other tower" does not make it true, and your definition of Toxic is, in itself, toxic.

If frost towers do in fact leave the game so that there is "no other viable tactic to be played" how do you plan on playing the game if this nerf you want comes into effect? 

If there is only 1 way to play high level end game, in my opinion that's pretty not fun. I understand the OP for using the word 'toxic' since it is lame if there is only one way to beat that. 

Also, if they would decide to nerf that tactic, they would OBVIOUSLY also nerf the monsters' stats. That is in fact the magical solution the devs should come up with. Or increase stats on items/tower- or heropower. 

No need to overreact like that being so offensive. The OP was not being like that, so no need to act like this even when he uses a word such as 'toxic'. Did he say you were? You probably either have played League of Legends or are having a lot of fun with the frost apprentice build :)

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@Cyrius quote:


@LastTourniquet quote:

Simply saying "They are stronger than any other tower" does not make it true, and your definition of Toxic is, in itself, toxic.

If frost towers do in fact leave the game so that there is "no other viable tactic to be played" how do you plan on playing the game if this nerf you want comes into effect? 

Also, if they would decide to nerf that tactic, they would OBVIOUSLY also nerf the monsters' stats. That is in fact the magical solution the devs should come up with. Or increase stats on items/tower- or heropower. 

While I can see where you are coming from, the problem here is that the OP said nothing about changing the mobs stats. When I was talking about a magical new way of playing the game I was talking about the current state of the game with ONLY the tower being nerfed as the OP suggests, not having the Devs make the game easier on top of nerfing the tower.


@Cyrius quote:

No need to overreact like that being so offensive. The OP was not being like that, so no need to act like this even when he uses a word such as 'toxic'. Did he say you were? You probably either have played League of Legends or are having a lot of fun with the frost apprentice build :)

That part of the post was merely so the OP doesn't misuse the word. It gives the game a bad rep if you throw words like Toxic, or Unplayable around without really meaning it. If, for example, I was to say the game is completely broken because of X, Y, and Z and then didn't clarify that by "broken" I meant "easily exploitable, though its a choice" some people may take that to mean its not worth their time. The same goes for words like Toxic.
If I call a game mechanic "Toxic" it means I am saying that it is ruining the game for the vast majority of players to the point where you can't play 2 games without someone complaining about it, and in the case of the frost tower, that is simply not true.

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The OP did not suggest ONLY the frost tower getting nerfed. Where did he put that limit in his post? To me, it's obvious that if they decide to nerf, they will change something else to still make it playable at that level of difficulty. It should be the same for anyone else. 

And I still don't think he misused the word. The OP was not calling the game toxic, he was calling frost towers with the current mechanic/numbers toxic. I don't see any problem there.

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Personally I don't see anything wrong with it. I doubt the difficulty level/stats are going to be redone just because a handful of people dislike 1 of the passives which really isn't that "broken".

Using actual towers is still viable - Just not optimal. Realistically there will always be 1 go to setup that outperforms the others. Changing it around isn't going to achieve that much.


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@Cuddles quote:

Personally I don't see anything wrong with it. I doubt the difficulty level/stats are going to be redone just because a handful of people dislike 1 of the passives which really isn't that "broken".

Using actual towers is still viable - Just not optimal. Realistically there will always be 1 go to setup that outperforms the others. Changing it around isn't going to achieve that much.


Saying there will always be 1 setup that outperforms others is pretty bold. Why would this always have to be the case? There are loads of games where there are multiple strategies which are roughly just as good. So it is in fact possible for the devs to balance strategies out in this game as well, as long as they take players' feedback in consideration as well.

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The misuse of the term "toxic" is huge in this post. I suggest you avoid the term until you learn the meaning. People can be toxic. Not the game or it's mechanics.
while not the MOST toxic, your unneeded rant about perfectly fine implemented and working game mechanic is, in fact, TOXIC. Toxic is what spreads negativity without any valid reason - purely for self-satisfaction. In this case, to rant about perfectly fine working game mechanic. So please, in the future, do not misuse the term "toxic" as it leaves an impression that the community in this game was actually toxic, which is NOT true. That is misleading and might close the door for new players who browse forums for info before jumping into the game.

In reality, frostbite towers are good as is. Other towers or a boost aura need a buff to become as useful as traps / frostbite combo at the moment, because the late End Game right now is balanced around the most powerful defenses we have - frostbite / traps / lightning aura combos. Yes, LA Monk is viable.

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Seriously, I don't understand why people get so butthurt when someone calls a game mechanic (not a player) toxic. I think it's perfectly fine to call anything 'toxic', if given the right justification for that. 

@Seph quote:

In this case, to rant about perfectly fine working game mechanic. 

In reality, frostbite towers are good as is. Other towers or a boost aura need a buff to become as useful as traps / frostbite combo at the moment, because the late End Game right now is balanced around the most powerful defenses we have - frostbite / traps / lightning aura combos. Yes, LA Monk is viable.

So you are saying it should not be changed, while it is the single best/most viable tactic late game. Wow this game is not going to stay boring later on at all then, such insight (/sarcasm). If they nerf it, and decrease monster strength accordingly, I think that would be a good thing.

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Because "toxic" is a term to describe player behaviour, not the game itself. It can easily confuse people.

@Cyrius quote:So you are saying it should not be changed, while it is the single best/most viable tactic late game. Wow this game is not going to stay boring later on at all then, such insight (/sarcasm). If they nerf it, and decrease monster strength accordingly, I think that would be a good thing.

Why would a strong defense need a nerf? Why NERF everything that is viable? I don't get the logics in here.

On the contrary, you should BUFF other things to make them viable instead. Does that not make sense to you? I don't get why people are so focused on NERFING things all the time, if they work. It's not like you can afk NM4 incursions with the trap / frostbite anyway. I would agree that it needed nerf IF and only IF you could afk with your eyes closed in NM4 Incursions Wyvern's Den. Then - yes, it would be way too powerful.

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@Cyrius quote:
@Cuddles quote:

Personally I don't see anything wrong with it. I doubt the difficulty level/stats are going to be redone just because a handful of people dislike 1 of the passives which really isn't that "broken".

Using actual towers is still viable - Just not optimal. Realistically there will always be 1 go to setup that outperforms the others. Changing it around isn't going to achieve that much.


Saying there will always be 1 setup that outperforms others is pretty bold. Why would this always have to be the case? There are loads of games where there are multiple strategies which are roughly just as good. So it is in fact possible for the devs to balance strategies out in this game as well, as long as they take players' feedback in consideration as well.

True balance is very rarely truly achieved especially in a game with so much player freedom. And even if it were to be achieved - It would take a very long time to fine tune everything to such a point. In the majority of games this becomes an endless cycle of over-nerfing everything that people use a lot, and then over-buffing it back up again.

"Balance" is far harder to achieve than 99% of players ever truly realise. You see this thread is about nerfing Frosty because it's "toxic" (whatever that's really supposed to mean). And with that, as you have said realistically most mobs would either need to be nerfed too or stats would need to go up.

Or... Maybe Trendy could just buff the other damage dealing towers to make them a little more viable instead. (Although they're still air kobold magnets so that's not my thing). Like really... Nerfing Frosty probably wont make any more people use Earthshatter towers.


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@LastTourniquet quote:


While I can see where you are coming from, the problem here is that the OP said nothing about changing the mobs stats. When I was talking about a magical new way of playing the game I was talking about the current state of the game with ONLY the tower being nerfed as the OP suggests, not having the Devs make the game easier on top of nerfing the tower.


because thats not important


the point is that frost tower is op


NM4 doesnt have to be beatable atm, devs CLEARLY told its not balanced, what must be balanced is the champions we can use and the tactics, after that the game modes can be balanced


it would be impossible to balance otherwise when there is ONE super op tactic that can beat maps higher than you without much effort and all other tactic/defenses who struggle against same lvl maps

also loot just sux, its nearly impossible to get the gear your really want, if that is ever fixed it will make things smooth even with no op frost



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@mmm quote:


@LastTourniquet quote:


While I can see where you are coming from, the problem here is that the OP said nothing about changing the mobs stats. When I was talking about a magical new way of playing the game I was talking about the current state of the game with ONLY the tower being nerfed as the OP suggests, not having the Devs make the game easier on top of nerfing the tower.


because thats not important


the point is that frost tower is op


NM4 doesnt have to be beatable atm, devs CLEARLY told its not balanced, what must be balanced is the champions we can use and the tactics, after that the game modes can be balanced


it would be impossible to balance otherwise when there is ONE super op tactic that can beat maps higher than you without much effort and all other tactic/defenses who struggle against same lvl maps

also loot just sux, its nearly impossible to get the gear your really want, if that is ever fixed it will make things smooth even with no op frost



Given that so many people are currently in NM4 - Yes it does need to be beatable or I imagine Trendy will lose a hefty chunk of playerbase since we wont actually be able to do anything.

& No it wouldn't be impossible to balance everything. As mentioned in the 2 posts above you - The better solution is actually to buff the useless towers that no one uses in end-game content because they're just too weak to be worthwhile. 

NERF NERF NERF is not the only solution to balancing things out. 

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@Cuddles quote:

It would take a very long time to fine tune everything to pure balance. 

Or... Maybe Trendy could just buff the other damage dealing towers to make them a little more viable instead. (Although they're still air kobold magnets so that's not my thing). Like really... Nerfing Frosty probably wont make any more people use Earthshatter towers.


I never said everything needed to get PERFECTLY balanced. Just roughly. Which is different from how it is now.

Also, buffing other towers to deal more damage is basically exactly the same as nerfing the frost tower's mechanic. It's a good idea too, but no different than the idea of nerfing the frost combo and nerfing monster's strength. Same result.

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@Cyrius quote:

The OP did not suggest ONLY the frost tower getting nerfed. Where did he put that limit in his post? To me, it's obvious that if they decide to nerf, they will change something else to still make it playable at that level of difficulty. It should be the same for anyone else. 

And I still don't think he misused the word. The OP was not calling the game toxic, he was calling frost towers with the current mechanic/numbers toxic. I don't see any problem there.

Actually he DID only suggest frost tower getting nerfed, otherwise he would have said something to the contrary. You can not just assume anything. If may seem the next obvious step to change other parts of the game but he said nothing at ALL about that so as far as anyone reading the OP is concerned the only thing suggested was to nerf the frost tower.

Lets chalk the OP's use of the word toxic up to personal use then. Because personally I don't think its toxic at all. As apposed to it being an overpowered I think it shows how UNDERpowered a lot of the other towers are. The OP makes a point that the existence of the frost towers makes all of the other Apprentice towers and Squire towers obsolete. This may or may not be true (I haven't tested it but I am willing to bet some combination of Training Dummy + Frost Tower + Boost Tower could be, at the very least, do-able). But if it IS true its not because the Frost Tower is over powered, if anything its because the rest of the towers just aren't up to snuff. Instead of calling for a nerf on Frost Towers, we should be calling for a buff on Boost Towers so that we can have more options while still keeping the Frost Tower build viable. This would achieve the same result, the only difference being how big the numbers are. And as a rule of thumb bigger numbers are ALWAYS better.

If the Frost Tower gets nerfed it is basically like the Devs saying "This is the hardest we want the game to get". The only way the statement becomes untrue is if they either A) Add new towers/mechanics to the game B) Buff the already existing towers somehow (maybe by raising the cap on upgrade levels, DD1 maxed at 3 Stars) C) Reversing the nerf to the point that it returns to where it was before the nerf, or becomes even better than it already is. Or some combination of the three.
If A

Then those new towers/mechnics would have to be so much stronger that it makes the existing towers obsolete

If B

Both nerfing Frost Towers and buffing the existing towers would only serve to make Frost Towers obsolete

If C

The original nerf becomes null and void and it would be an admittance that it was a mistake

Now you may be completely fine with the current difficulty staying where it is, and that is your prerogative, but you have to remember the game is in its Alpha stages. Meaning even if things go well there will more than likely be an entire Beta stage to come next before the full release. Personally I think the game would be very dull if the hardest it is rite now is the hardest its going to get even when full release comes about.

Therefor instead of asking to nerf things we should be asking the Devs to buff things in one form or another. Just recently, and in fact as I am typing this rite now, there is an influence vote on whether or not "Normal" should be more challenging. This is because there were complaints of the game being Too Easy. If we nerf the current end game content while at the same time buff the content at the start of the game that severely limits the amount of changes that can be made to the game. Two walls are set: On one side we have a wall saying its Too easy, the other side we have a wall saying its Too hard, and both walls are made of unobtainium, a metal so hard the only way through is to break the space/time continuum and teleport to the other side.
One of the biggest reasons DD1 was/is such a good game is because there were a ton of different ways to play and it had a HUGE replay value. If we pigeon hole ourselfs before the game is even released then where is all that replay value going to go?

This turned into a MUCH longer reply than I originally intended and I kind of veered off course a little, but my point is still in there.. somewhere... you just have to look really hard.. and maybe use your imagination.

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@Cyrius quote:


@Cuddles quote:

It would take a very long time to fine tune everything to pure balance. 

Or... Maybe Trendy could just buff the other damage dealing towers to make them a little more viable instead. (Although they're still air kobold magnets so that's not my thing). Like really... Nerfing Frosty probably wont make any more people use Earthshatter towers.


I never said everything needed to get PERFECTLY balanced. Just roughly. Which is different from how it is now.

Also, buffing other towers to deal more damage is basically exactly the same as nerfing the frost tower's mechanic. It's a good idea too, but no different than the idea of nerfing the frost combo and nerfing monster's strength.

It is fairly different, especially if walls were to stay the same. A decent nerf to strength to counter losing the frosty mechanic would probably be NM4 dropping to around NM3's difficulty when it comes to hp/damage output.

And well... In NM4 gear even without Frosties I could probably AFK a full NM3 game easily. Obviously the step up to NM4 would still be difficult but once you're their your walls would do so much better than they currently do (and the main challenge in NM4 is keeping your walls repaired anyway).

In a sense, yes it's kind of the same concept. But nerfing Frosty would probably require a lot more work re-balancing a fair amount of the games aspect (and hence a lot more could go wrong). 

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@Seph quote:

Why would a strong defense need a nerf? Why NERF everything that is viable? I don't get the logics in here. 

On the contrary, you should BUFF other things to make them viable instead. Does that not make sense to you? I don't get why people are so focused on NERFING things all the time, if they work. It's not like you can afk NM4 incursions with the trap / frostbite anyway. I would agree that it needed nerf IF and only IF you could afk with your eyes closed in NM4 Incursions Wyvern's Den. Then - yes, it would be way too powerful.

Hmm.. I like you.
I would like to point out that I typed my most recent rant without seeing this or some of the previous posts in this thread :)

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He did suggest the frost tower getting nerfed yes, and obviously I made the next step by adding that then monsters should be made a bit weaker, or other towers/mechanics buffed. Simple. He did not say that everything else should stay exactly the same. 

D) nerf frost mechanics and nerf monsters

E) nerf frost mechanics and buff other towers/mechanics

Perfect.

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@mmm quote:NM4 doesnt have to be beatable atm, devs CLEARLY told its not balanced, what must be balanced is the champions we can use and the tactics, after that the game modes can be balanced

Go try to beat NM4 right now. It is not THAT easily beatable. Devs DID balance HEROES, not maps. But guess what? Balance is a 2-way street. You balance heroes around the maps = you don't have to balance maps and the other way around.


@mmm quote:it would be impossible to balance otherwise when there is ONE super op tactic that can beat maps higher than you without much effort and all other tactic/defenses who struggle against same lvl maps
Well then, go beat NM4 Betsy with your super op frostbite tactics. <sarcasm> I'll be waiting for a thread "Betsy OP Toxic impossible to beat, pls buff frostbite towers". </sarcasm>




@mmm quote:also loot just sux, its nearly impossible to get the gear your really want, if that is ever fixed it will make things smooth even with no op frost

Well, that is your relationship with RNGoddess. I do not know what you did to p**s her off, but - there you have it. I do not have any HUGE problems looking for gear with matching stats (crit chance + crit damage, crits on phoenix bow, DP + tripwire, etc.), so i'm satisfied with what i find. Also, i wear only one Legendary item and i am satisfied with how "LEGENDARY" Legendary items are =) It makes sense, actually. I think loot has improved A LOT. You can actually gear up pretty easily / relatively fast now for a decent damage output with correct stats / passives. Unlike a couple patches ago...

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you just have no idea what you are talking about, you talk about stats are crit chance + crit dmg like that would matter lol


its just a waste of time talking about deep game mechanics with ppl who doesnt understand anything about the basics

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@Cyrius quote:

He did suggest the frost tower getting nerfed yes, and obviously I made the next step by adding that then monsters should be made a bit weaker, or other towers/mechanics buffed. Simple. He did not say that everything else should stay exactly the same. 

D) nerf frost mechanics and nerf monsters

E) nerf frost mechanics and buff other towers/mechanics

Perfect.


exactly

it wasnt that hard

frost is just over the top OP i mean even if they cut in half its power it would STILL be so op and would be the only choice

once frost is nerfed to the oblivion ofc devs would need to buff the other defenses/strategies someway

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@mmm quote:

its just a waste of time talking about deep game mechanics with ppl who doesnt understand anything about the basics

I'm sorry... what deep game mechanics? We are talking about a very simple mechanic. There is a single tower which some people think is too strong because it gives a lot of utility while other players see it being in the front of the pack in a race where the finish line is an amazing game.

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