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Alhanalem

Jester Update Feedback Thread

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This thread is the place to tell us what you think about the Jester changes.

We added two new defenses- The Party Popper is a basic projectile tower that shoots projectiles at random from a wide range of possible shots. The Jack in the Box is a wall-type defense with high health and a knockback attack. This brings the Jester to the same 5 defenses as the other heroes, and so we changed the unlock levels of the Jester's defenses to match the other heroes.

These changes were made to make the Jester more viable in solo play and as a builder, especially in the early game where you really couldn't afford to spend the high mana cost of the presents on the first wave of a map, only to have most of them turn into ogres and junk. Currently we're not planning to nerf the Jester's combat ability.

I ported the new defenses from DDE, with scripting help from CrzyRandom. Here's what we know right now.

The Party Popper's attributes may be a bit high at the moment (average DPS). Please give us feedback on this and we will consider adjustmetns.
The Jack in the Box currently scales a bit more with range than I intended, with high stats allowing the box to hit targets about twice as far away as the punching glove visually reaches. I wanted slight scaling here so that your stats are not useless, but it might be a bit excessive at the moment. Finally, there are some audiovisual things that still need tweaking. We'll get this settled by the official release.

We're currently considering slowing down the animation on the Box so that it still plays at higher defense speeds, and adjusting the damage to compensate. The Jack in the Box is currently best suited to narrower paths, but we may increase the collision area of the tower to make things a little easier.

So questions you can answer:
1) Is the Party Popper OP? Would you choose it over every other shooty defense? (Note that the popper does contain some elemental projectiles, and it may still shoot at an enemy even if the current projectile would be resisted, thus lowering the DPS slightly)

2)Is the Jack in the box useable? Does it have enough health? Does it do enough damage?

3)What are your overall impressions? Does this make the Jester more fun to play? More useful? Would you include these new defenses in any tower builds? If not, how can we improve it?

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@Alhanalem quote:

1) Is the Party Popper OP? Would you choose it over every other shooty defense? (Note that the popper does contain some elemental projectiles, and it may still shoot at an enemy even if the current projectile would be resisted, thus lowering the DPS slightly)

I personally don't think so.

After thinking about Party Poppers and in stats comparisons with Harpoons, I would take a Harpoon in like 99% of cases because the Harpoon does one job and it does it ridiculously well. When comparing a single Harpoon to a single party popper, the party popper never once out-DPSed the harpoon. It did have some runs where it would be within 200,000 DPS, but it never matched.

When speaking in terms of DU, the party popper against a single target is in fact better than a harpoon, but the difference is so slight that a harpoon will wind up doing more as a  standalone turret. Given the fact that ogres tend to gather in one area in a choke point of the map, and every harpoon will be hitting multiple ogres, and the party popper will get a peirce projectile/AoE projectile every once in a while. So in most cases in endgame maps I would never use party poppers unless there wasn't enough DU for another harpoon.

Party poppers also have lower range and HP than harpoons, making them just that much less effective against copters and errant poisonballs. What I do like about them,  though, is the incredibly small hitbox. Can squeeze a lot of those guys into a small space.




@Alhanalem quote:
2)Is the Jack in the box useable? Does it have enough health? Does it do enough damage?

As it stands I don't think the Jack in the Box is useable.

I think in order to make this tower useful you will need to allow it to knock back ogres. The state of endgame play is that of "how to kill the ogres", which this tower doesn't help with. It faces the same problems that Slice and Dice, Bouncer Blockade, and Spike Blockade have: They are non-ranged towers with lower HP than physical beams. With that being the case, it needs something to be able to do that is unique. Since this game is all about killing ogres, let it do something no other tower can: push ogres off the edge. This would be useful on... basically only King's Game I think, but it would be a really good solution to those ogres that make the waves take F**KING FOREVER to finish by simply punching them over the edge when they round a corner while going from level to level.



@Alhanalem quote:
3)What are your overall impressions? Does this make the Jester more fun to play? More useful? Would you include these new defenses in any tower builds? If not, how can we improve it?

These towers will definitely make the class more fun to play and use, and I will likely make myself a tower jester just to have one. As it stands, I might include a party popper or 2 onto a build here and there to fill out the DU on a survival, but otherwise I wouldn't use them on any high level survival, and to be honest it would be hard to imagine a way to make it useable in most maps unless you just make it far better than the harpoons. As a novelty turret it is very good, imo outclassing most if not all apprentice turrets and is clearly very capable of lower stat requirement maps like King's Game. If the Jack in the box knocked back ogres, I can guarantee you will see me on King's game as soon as the patch is downloaded, happily knocking ogres off the map. (assuming the knockback is big enough to do so)

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I'm gonna keep this short,


I like the changes, a lot actually. But do I think they are actually useful? No, the jack in the box is nice if you only have 4 du remaining but I wouldn't use it in any high-end maps simply because harpoons and minion walls are just so much more effective. As for the Party popper, The damage is alright but very inconsistent and it take up way too much space to actually be useful, so same as the jack in the box.


That beeing said, I wouldn't want them to be any better, right now I have a hybrid jester just for some fun on the side and in my personal opinion thats exactly how jester is supposed to be, not a full builder but a fun character, both useful for dps aswell as building but not exceeding main dps characters or main builders. So as of right now after the changes, I think jester is perfect.

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Jester can be a lot of things, and even prior to implementing these defenses, I had a builder jester. Despite how random it was  (and how frustrating that randomness can be) she helped me a TON in early nightmare by letting me effectively exceed the usual DU limit.

The main goal of these defenses is to allow someone who clicks through the heroes, sees the jester and is like "oh, that looks cool" to get through the core game with it, and not be turned off because it can't build anything unless you pray to RNJeesus. Starting the game as a jester (without someone powering you) was absolutely awful. The other goal is to give those people who want to try a builder jester something that will function 100% while play roulette with the present boxes to get what they need from them.

I didn't really expect it to change endgame at all mostly because physical defenses are difficult to use in general (other than buffed minions supported by a mage), but I do expect to help the less hardcore players that choose the hero as a main.

(We're looking to make the range of the JITB less silly- I wanted it to scale slightly with range so your range stat isnt completely worthless, but not to reach several times farther than it looks like it should be able to hit things, and maybe slow it down and pump up the damage and health).

it take up way too much space to actually be useful,

the tower appears large, but its actual collision area is smaller. It isn't actually that much different from other defenses. the model's scale was set such that when you stand on it (same height as other towers), you're standing on top of the top hat.

"I think in order to make this tower useful you will need to allow it to knock back ogres."

Allowing any defense to knock back ogres would be incredibly OP.


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After thinking about Party Poppers and in stats comparisons with Harpoons, I would take a Harpoon in like 99% of cases because the Harpoon does one job and it does it ridiculously well. When comparing a single Harpoon to a single party popper, the party popper never once out-DPSed the harpoon

The harpoon is a higher DU defense. Thus, in terms of damage/DU efficiency, the popper should be slightly under the harpoon.
I could slightly increase the odds of the DST/snot ball.
Keep in mind though: The Djinn projectiles have 4 target pierce; the snot ball and the fireball have splash (snot ball has a very large splash area in particular)

The reason I asked this question is my theory crafting on paper suggested that it might be too strong, so I'm slightly surprised to hear it doesn't feel strong enough. I'll take a closer look at this.


I think in order to make this tower useful you will need to allow it to knock back ogres. The state of endgame play is that of "how to kill the ogres", which this tower doesn't help with. It faces the same problems that Slice and Dice, Bouncer Blockade, and Spike Blockade have: They are non-ranged towers with lower HP than physical beams. With that being the case, it needs something to be able to do that is unique. Since this game is all about killing ogres, let it do something no other tower can: push ogres off the edge. This would be useful on... basically only King's Game I think, but it would be a really good solution to those ogres that make the waves take F**KING FOREVER to finish by simply punching them over the edge when they round a corner while going from level to level.

I just can't see doing that because ogres are the only thing that can pretend to be a threat in the game. to be able to push ogres off a cliff would be pretty OP, as stated in my other post.

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@Alhanalem quote:

The harpoon is a higher DU defense. Thus, in terms of damage/DU efficiency, the popper should be slightly under the harpoon.
I could slightly increase the odds of the DST/snot ball.
Keep in mind though: The Djinn projectiles have 4 target pierce; the snot ball and the fireball have splash (snot ball has a very large splash area in particular)

The reason I asked this question is my theory crafting on paper suggested that it might be too strong, so I'm slightly surprised to hear it doesn't feel strong enough. I'll take a closer look at this.


In terms of efficiency, what I did is take an average of DPS for both for ~ 15 cycles of damage. Both towers had the exact same tower stats. The harpoon always did more damage, but the party popper was close enough in average DPS to the harpoon to have better damage per DU efficiency.

I was not aware that the Djinn projectiles pierced; good to know. Still doesn't change my final answer though.

I want to make sure I'm being clear here, though: While I would always choose a harpoon given enough DU, the party popper is still very strong. The fact that harpoons can pierce infinitely and do more DPS to a single target just makes them broken in comparison to other towers. It's not a case of party popper being bad, its more a case of something else being so much better.


@Alhanalem quote:

I just can't see doing that because ogres are the only thing that can pretend to be a threat in the game. to be able to push ogres off a cliff would be pretty OP, as stated in my other post.

As much as I can understand that sentiment, think about the maps that would be useful on for a second.


Magus Quarters

Castle Armory

The Ramparts

Endless Spires

Palantir

Sky City

Crystalline Dimension

The King's Game

The Tinkerer's Lab


In endgame stats, nobody plays the first 5 maps on that list. In Sky City, I don't think the turret would live long enough to be worthwhile on that map. Also I think you would just wind up pushing the ogre back onto the propeller lifts most of the time. I can't see that effect being very useful in Crystalline Dimension either. Personally I think there are bettter things you could do with your DU in Tinkerer's. King's Game is the only map where I see being able to push ogres off the cliff to be very useful.

Beyond that, you don't even need to give it a large knockback. as long as it moves the ogre... say 2 presents distance, it's going to take a good deal of work to make a setup that actually pushes an ogre off the cliff. They will still be able to throw poison balls, so if you don't repair the tower, its going down eventually. I think it would be cool if the Jack in the box did, and its probably the only way to make it usable. I advise against giving it more damage, because at that point its just becoming a worse bouncer blockade.

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@Caimen0 quote:


Beyond that, you don't even need to give it a large knockback. as long as it moves the ogre... say 2 presents distance, it's going to take a good deal of work to make a setup that actually pushes an ogre off the cliff. 

Sploosh!  Love this idea! Maybe just make a quick stunned animation, if possible.

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In terms of efficiency, what I did is take an average of DPS for both for ~ 15 cycles of damage. Both towers had the exact same tower stats. The harpoon always did more damage, but the party popper was close enough in average DPS to the harpoon to have better damage per DU efficiency.

If it ended up being as close as you suggest, I'd expect 4 poppers (16 DU) to noticably out-power 3 harpoons (15 DU). But given your response, i'm imagining you probably wouldn't place that many of either in one lane.

Now, I realize we already made an informational video stating specific information, but would id be preferable to you if we made its overall cost the same/similar to the harpoon and turned it up a bit more? Or do you think it's better to leave it the way it is where it might be filler in higher end defense builds but still very useable for early/midgame (e.g. for people who pick the jester because they want to play it, and not specifically as part of some endgame strategy)?

(also,I might increase the pierce limit again (we dialed it back from its default because we thought it might be too good)

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I side towards the "harpoons > party popper" side of the spectrum, but I do know others who would be at the other side. As it is, I think its perfectly fine and very usable; some would even choose this over the harpoon in every instance. I would have to revisit the damage number for both again later on to give a good answer, but I think the party popper is in a good spot as it is.

Hopefully I'll be able to give hard numbers on my findings later tonight.

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For the Jack in the box:

In order to allow it to knock back ogres, we'd have to drastically reduce or fix the attack rate. Even if you aren't pushing ogres off ledges, with normally-scaling attack rate, the ogres would basically be disabled from attacking.

Would you prefer it if it was much slower but stronger?

I'm not against letting the momentum transfer apply to ogres but if it scales little to none with speed I worry that it won't be used for being too slow.

If making it much slower (e.g. scales very little with defense speed) in exchange for being able to knock back ogres sounds appealing to you, we can test out that change.
There was feedback within the community team "very few things (joust and companion cube)" can push ogres around, and it seems like a giant punching glove should be able to."

Substantially slowing the JITB down would also have the added effect of being able to see the animation late game.

I'm also going to be adjusting the range down a bit, and preventing the JITB from having its range boosted by buff beams (it was absolutely crazy how far it would hit when its supposd to be a short range defense)

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Yeah, Kirbykiller and i were talking about that in group chat. You would definitely have to slow down the attack rate, and probably tone down the attack range a bit.


Here's the stats from the harpoon vs. party popper

HTQb5bs.png

All the DPS numbers are ofc in the millions.

My conclusions from this is that Harpoons are as a singular turret the better tower, and per DU this means that against single targets once you pass one harpoon the Party Popper is in fact better.

Once you get into multiple targets, you're never guaranteed that all the ogres/djinn /what have you are both not elemental resistant, and once there is more than 4 of them, Harpoons completely take over.

Those are my conclusions, I'd be interested to see what others think of that data.

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@Caimen0 quote:

Yeah, Kirbykiller and i were talking about that in group chat. You would definitely have to slow down the attack rate, and probably tone down the attack range a bit.


Here's the stats from the harpoon vs. party popper



All the DPS numbers are ofc in the millions.

My conclusions from this is that Harpoons are as a singular turret a harpoon is the better turret, and per DU this means that against single targets once you pass one harpoon the Party Popper is in fact better.

Once you get into multiple targets, you're never guaranteed that all the ogres/djinn /what have you are both not elemental resistant, and once there is more than 4 of them, Harpoons completely take over.

Those are my conclusions, I'd be interested to see what others think of that data.

Basd on this, do you have any suggestions for tweaking?

For ratios: right now, magic missile + arrow combined are about half of all shots (The ratio for these was initially lower but the popper was extremely OP this way); djinn shots and the fireball are most of the rest. One of the djinn shots is purity damage (more effective against dark elves and skeletons). All djinn shots currently pierce 4 targets.

Here's the full list, ranked from highest to lowest frequency:

Magic Missile (same as the tower)
Minion arrow (Same as the Summoner minion)
Djinn fire / Djinn Poison / Djinn Electric (All same chance. Nerfed from the real versions which were way too powerful)
Djinn Purity (custom-more effective against dark elves/skeles)
Fireball (Same as the tower)
Deadly Striker bolt (Same as the tower)
Ogre Snotball (Same as used by real ogres)

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What I can do with the jack in the box is give it a chance to knockback ogres. It will be less effective because there's a special up-kick to make the enemies fly further that wouldn't apply to ogres, so they wouldn't be moved a whole lot, but it would be something.

Using the same system we created for the party popper, I can create two attacks. one that will knock back ogres and one that will not, and give the latter like a 10-20% chance to happen.

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@Alhanalem quote:

What I can do with the jack in the box is give it a chance to knockback ogres. It will be less effective because there's a special up-kick to make the enemies fly further that wouldn't apply to ogres, so they wouldn't be moved a whole lot, but it would be something.

Using the same system we created for the party popper, I can create two attacks. one that will knock back ogres and one that will not, and give the latter like a 10-20% chance to happen.

I think this would be awesome, it would definitely make it much more viable as a niche tower. 

Additionally, I would pay close attention to how this Ogre knockback buff performs with the current range and attack rate of the JITB. It might be overpowered if range & rate are too high. (Ogres will never be able to reach defenses or will be almost constantly stunned)


@Alhanalem quote:


@Caimen0 quote:

Yeah, Kirbykiller and i were talking about that in group chat. You would definitely have to slow down the attack rate, and probably tone down the attack range a bit.


Here's the stats from the harpoon vs. party popper



All the DPS numbers are ofc in the millions.

My conclusions from this is that Harpoons are as a singular turret a harpoon is the better turret, and per DU this means that against single targets once you pass one harpoon the Party Popper is in fact better.

Once you get into multiple targets, you're never guaranteed that all the ogres/djinn /what have you are both not elemental resistant, and once there is more than 4 of them, Harpoons completely take over.

Those are my conclusions, I'd be interested to see what others think of that data.

Basd on this, do you have any suggestions for tweaking?

For ratios: right now, magic missile + arrow combined are about half of all shots (The ratio for these was initially lower but the popper was extremely OP this way); djinn shots and the fireball are most of the rest. One of the djinn shots is purity damage (more effective against dark elves and skeletons). All djinn shots currently pierce 4 targets.

Here's the full list, ranked from highest to lowest frequency:

Magic Missile (same as the tower)
Minion arrow (Same as the Summoner minion)
Djinn fire / Djinn Poison / Djinn Electric (All same chance. Nerfed from the real versions which were way too powerful)
Djinn Purity (custom-more effective against dark elves/skeles)
Fireball (Same as the tower)
Deadly Striker bolt (Same as the tower)
Ogre Snotball (Same as used by real ogres)

Based on the current dps rates I would suggest considering increasing the DU cost of the party popper by one or slightly reducing the damage scaling. Based on the data provided by Caimen0, an increase in DU cost by one would result in a damage/du of roughly 0.217488. If you were to simply nerf damage scaling/rates a bit I would shoot for .24 or .25 damage/du since this would allow for the popper to still fill this niche role:

against single targets once you pass one harpoon the Party Popper is in fact better. 

However, as it stands compared to harpoons party poppers are reasonably well balanced. It definitely gives apprentice towers a run for their money (I would consider buffing apprentice towers a decent project for the CD team...). In the current meta game app towers are hardly used due to how poorly they compare to harpoons in survival.

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@Sir Pancakez quote:

I think for me, the Buc Bay weapons should get a 1-2% buff vs saws, glad, egs and pawn. KTHX.

(Don't Expect walls of text on why from me.)

no

:)

Also ur in the wrong thread

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Following changes will be made for when beta patch is updated:

Party Popper:
-Ratio of projectiles very slightly tilted more towards projectiles with splash or pierce (arrow/magic missile ratio down very slightly; djinn shots, fireball, ogre snot ball up very slightly)
-Djinn shots (all four) have max pierce increased from 4 to 6


Jack in the box:

-Removed muzzle flash that didn't belong (whoops)
-Range is no longer affected by buff beams (this was increasing this "close range" tower's range to ridiculous levels)
-Base range increased; Range scaling rate decreased. (MIlestones: Should top off around 8.00 or so at extreme stats; need about 100 tower range to hit a troll ogre that's deciding to hit from its absolute max range.
-Overall attack rate decreased (Part attack rate scaling, part animation speed slowing), Damage scaling increased to compensate. Effect of this should allow the animation to be visible for a much larger range of tower damage stat
-Now has a 20% chance to knock back boss enemies (e.g. ogres). When this procs, it will also knockback heavier enemies a little more than usual (e.g. anything with more mass than a goblin). Will want feedback on this when it goes live.

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我就想说你们能取消vac么,要不你出个官方中文也行,你放个vac卡着,又不出中文,现在中国国内的汉化组根本都放弃汉化你们的东西了,至少给条活路吧orz


I want to say what you can cancel vac, or you an official Chinese line, you put a Valve Anti-Cheat card, and again not Chinese, and now China's domestic Chinese group finished you simply have to give up things, At least for a way out of it orz

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For those wondering, the use above was VAC-banned for using a cheat program and he wants to be unbanned because the Steam document detailing things that can get you VAC banned was not translated in Chinese (which is not a supported language of the game anyway).

Unfortunately, VAC bans are handled by Steam, and neither we nor Trendy can help you get a VAC ban lifted. Only Steam can do this, and they only do it in the very rarest of circumstances.

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gIgQ1Sa.png
MWOqiP3.png

Some more numbers now that the update has come out.
I think party poppers are pretty good now. after trying them out on King's Game, I think they're definitely usable in NM content. I haven't yet tested out JitB because I'm not sure what map would make a good testing ground.

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Alright after poking around a bit and testing the dmg of jester , squire and app all with the same armor this is what I think :
I actually really enjoy party poppers since they look and feel like a lot of fun. Even though I think dmg should be buffed a little since they're ele and harpoons mostly deal more, considering party poppers are half as many DU I will probably try to fit a couple in where I would usually add harpoons.

I was pretty surprised by the awesome dmg jack-in-the-boxes do ( came up with 26.7 M total dmg while testing DPS ) I feel like we should balance meele towers more, since I would love to use this and slice-n-dices. Also the knockback is really fun.

Since you said you mostly are looking for opinions on how this would help new jesters and not end-game, I think this would warrant a really fun first playthrough, if you find enough "hybrid" items.
Anyway, that's all just my opinion though, considering I haven't been around as long as everyone else. Hope it helps though. Overall really fun ^^

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Poppers are actually very DU efficient right now, to compensate for the random elements and not everyshot hitting multiple targets. Which is why I adjusted the projectile ratios a bit, to increase the amount of damage that splashes/pierces. On average, Poppers should deal out well above average DPS per DU. Because of the Jester's scaling, the thing i'd take over them would be specifically harpoons built by a jester. Which is easier to do now than it was before becasue I increased the tower chances from present boxes.

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@Alhanalem quote:

For those wondering, the use above was VAC-banned for using a cheat program and he wants to be unbanned because the Steam document detailing things that can get you VAC banned was not translated in Chinese (which is not a supported language of the game anyway).

Unfortunately, VAC bans are handled by Steam, and neither we nor Trendy can help you get a VAC ban lifted. Only Steam can do this, and they only do it in the very rarest of circumstances.

于是八国语言没中文,我们一样是花美元买游戏来玩。你不出官方中文就算了,因为vac系统,中国玩家自己的第三方汉化组都没办法汉化游戏供我们使用中文版的地牢守护者。

So the eight languages are not Chinese, we are the same as the dollar to buy games to play. You do not Chinese official even, because the VAC system, Chinese players their third party signified the group didn't way finished the game for us to use the Chinese version of the dungeon guards.

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@西格玛和声 quote:


@Alhanalem quote:

For those wondering, the use above was VAC-banned for using a cheat program and he wants to be unbanned because the Steam document detailing things that can get you VAC banned was not translated in Chinese (which is not a supported language of the game anyway).

Unfortunately, VAC bans are handled by Steam, and neither we nor Trendy can help you get a VAC ban lifted. Only Steam can do this, and they only do it in the very rarest of circumstances.

于是八国语言没中文,我们一样是花美元买游戏来玩。你不出官方中文就算了,因为vac系统,中国玩家自己的第三方汉化组都没办法汉化游戏供我们使用中文版的地牢守护者。

So the eight languages are not Chinese, we are the same as the dollar to buy games to play. You do not Chinese official even, because the VAC system, Chinese players their third party signified the group didn't way finished the game for us to use the Chinese version of the dungeon guards.

I'm sorry, but whether or not there is a document in your language, you should not be assuming that it is OK to use cheat programs in a game on Steam.

Regardless, Trendy can not help you because the VAC system is completely run by Steam / Valve. Trendy Entertainment has nothing to do with enforcing it. VAC bans are issued by Valve, not Trendy, and we can't help you get them lifted.

VAC bans do not prevent you from playing the game. Open Multiplayer and local single- and multi-player are still available.

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