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ddace

CDT Update 1 - Genie Fix Discussion

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At the risk of once again making mods irate, I have to call you out by saying that breaking that manasource just shows how out of touch you are and the entire CDT for all i know - and this time i'll skip public guessing at why that is so.

Let's skip to the facts here and ignore the "calling out":

1) The current "mana source" we have now is the result of an error in the script for the genie pet. It is not an intended mechanic in any way shape or form, and it simply didn't manifest itself until later in the game's life due to various circumstances. For an explanation of exactly what the bug is, see CrzyRndm's long post earlier in the thread in case you missed it.

2) As I've already mentioned in previous posts, if we did fix this, we would turn up the genie's mana return in such a way as to allow everyone to get more mana out of it whether or not they have a specialized character for mana gathering purposes- to strike a balance between the absurd infinite mana we have now and the crappy genies that wouldn't be much help otherwise. (e.g. lots of mana, but not maximum mana with every click of the mouse).

3) We're not planning to push this fix through in this update (As CrzyRndm has already established). We might revisit it later when we have a solution that fixes the malfunctioning script without stirring hardcore players into a rage.

In this thread we even have people admitting this is exploitative, but don't want it fixed. This is essentially akin to having an infinite money cheat in any game with a currency resource. What if there was a bug in the game that made the crystals invulnerable? I would hope players would at least want that fixed, because a game that is never challenging is boring as heck.

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"We might revisit it later when we have a solution that fixes the malfunctioning script without stirring hardcore players into a rage." 


I'll thinking it is enough with this. I agree with the cdt. Most of you seem to be forgetting that the hard core players aren't the only players. There are those of the steam forums who are unaware of what's going on 

Everyone is or was complaining how easy this game is, we all  farm  auto mode. I wouldn't mind changes. I wouldn't mind nerfing. 

I would welcome new obstacles. I was one of those who never used guides. Hell I only started using genies 2k hours into the game. 

Maybe we should back down a little and look at all the hard work they are doing. We are adults, so act like one. I have learned from my former mistakes on these forums. Plz do not make the same ones. 


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@Veetoo quote:There are those of the steam forums who are unaware of what's going on 
There is a news post in the steam community hub with the patch notes (which includes a link to this thread)

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Sorry if this doesn't quite fit here.  I probably don't have nearly the investment in this game you all do, having just played since the previous summer sale, but as me and a friend have played co-op from Wells to UD over the past few months, I admit we have seen our use out of the genie.


But I was thinking about it when reading the notes and thought of something.  Right now the Genie is so useful mostly because it not only trivializes the upgrade process, but it lets you do it regardless of how much mana actually drops.  This is a big deal because right now mana despawns, and on NMHC, and any high enemy count map, it despawns fast.  I've actually seen mana despawn before it even finishes animating out of a dead enemy.


But the Genie is, right now, a fair bit overpowered.  As a example I checked something out.  Doing Moonbase, 1 crystal style, using chest mana to build and doing no upgrades the first wave, I did two runs of the second wave.


The first run was done with no pet at all, just picking up whatever mana dropped and spending it asap, with no particular aim on what I was upgrading, just burning it so I could pick up more.  In total, I picked up 3961 Mana in this wave.  Here's the thing though, if every single piece of mana dropped and didn't despawn, it would be in total 6388 mana if I'm doing the enemy math right.  Even if only the 50 and 500 clusters remained, with the 1, 10, and 25s despawning, it'd still be 5350 mana.  So on a early wave, with only 100 enemies, half of all the dropped mana is lost and wasted.


In comparison though, that same wave, with same build, and same enemies, using a Lupine Bow with a Okish Genie, followed by picking up what was left on the floor post-wave (but picking none up during the wave) produced 15139 mana.  Nearly 5x as much as the no-genie variant, and 2.5-3x as much as a optimal all-drop would generate.  And I'm not even good at swirling, I bet someone who is could do twice that much.


That does show how strong the current genie is, but if the mana drop was made to where we could, at the least, get the 50 and 500 clusters to not despawn, and then up the genie's base return, it could fix the glitch and still give a sizable mana return.  Of course very good genies would minimize how much floor mana you'd need, but this would let altered weaker genies still have a secondary source you would just have to work with.  It'd also mean people could use Skills in Combat after upgrades are done easier, since collection would be easier.

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Having now run Buccaneer Bay campaign, the challenge, and having finished the survival, I can say that the genie change as it is can't stay.


1) Upgrading feels terrible

    This is pretty self explanatory, though it really is true. Every activation of your genie at 29k only gives 420 mana, which won't even do a single star upgrade until you get the mana from the return stroke. This makes any sort of upgrading in early waves completely impossible (More on that later). Beyond that, in Survival, it takes sometimes up to 10 waves depending on how much mana you are getting to fully upgrade the map. Tell me, how are we supposed to do armor runs when we will be spending a minimum of 4 waves just upgrading the map? You are going to have to start at a wave in the mid to low teens (a gigantic waste of time), or miss out on important armor waves (counterintuitive at best). This lack of mana generation by a single genie is further compounded by the awkward timings of the genie swirl. Oftentimes you will find yourself out of mana and unable to swirl for several seconds before the cycle restarts or reaches the second stage.

2) Removal of the Wolfhunter's Bow

   Wolfhunter's Bow has been around for a LONG time as a staple jester weapon because of its usefulness combined with genie. Normally, with this item being a core drop, this item would be useless, another victim of "Unlock All". This is not the case and it adds a bit of richness and depth into the game that wouldn't be there if this "bug" (It's not a bug, its a feature! squire_small.png) were not present. This change makes it worthless again.

3) Mana Master and You

   The fact is Mana Master's mana generation is very strong compared to other genies if you remove swirling, especially since genie mana generation scales about as well as an obese kid scales a cliff face once you pass 29k. That combined with the Mana Master's *workable* (not good) hero stats and the rarity of good genies (since there is no real map to farm genies on), and you have a haves vs have nots situation.

   This also applies to the Howling Werewolf, as its very high damage and hero stats make it a very desirable item for jesters to have (should this change ever go though of course). With the Halloween 2 event nearly 2(or 3?) years behind us, this is not a readily available item.

4) The Difficulty Ramp

   It's no secret that getting into Nightmare in this game can be annoying. What can be even more annoying (or for some even painful) is gettting into the real "endgame" where most of us on these forums have been for months or even years. The fact that genie swirling exists makes it just a bit easier for players who want to climb the ladder. I know for a fact that genie + wolfhunter played a large part in me going from constantly farming Mistymire Survival to soling Akatiti campaign, as the extra upgrades early on did a large amount to bolster the low HP of my defenses against the onslaught of Ogres. Why should we make an already steep ramp even steeper by changing a feature that won't actually affect endgame players that much?

5) Swirling isn't that big a deal in Endgame maps

   Yeah, it does feel weird to say, but it seems that this is in fact the case. I did a run of NMHC Akatiti Jungle Campaign with only trans armor on level 78 characters with the genie changes in order to see the effect of the changes to low stat players. The standard benchmark for completing upgrading on Akatiti Campaign is wave 11 with genie swirling in the game. To my surprise, I had finished upgrading without genie swirling by midway through wave 12. Upon reflection, its pretty clear why this is the case. The fact of the matter is there are so many ogres in *most* of the high end campaign maps that mana is readily enough available for players to fully upgrade maps anyway. I think the only case where this does not hold true is Winter Wonderland if using the aggro build, since you just have so many minions its hard to finish by wave 13 even with swirling, but at that point you can refer to argument #4 on why changing genie is bad in that scenario anyway.

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As we've gotten plenty of feedback on this and we've already said we're shelving this for the time being, I'll be closing this thread so we can get more feedback on other things. We may look at this again in the future when we can address it without severely punishing players used to this. Thanks for your feedback and your understanding.

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