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CDT Update 1 - Genie Fix Discussion

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Well I want to try the beta out asap but can't because I wont be able to do the little amount of labruns I owe Mr Person anymore. How long will the test branch stay active? I want to test that new thing with the genie and I think it is awesome that you guys are trying out new stuff. If it is indeed a lot harder,  then those of us with high stats will have the advantage because I rarely upped akatiti anymore anyways. Those with low stats are the ones missing out the most, not those who are ancient players.

I will try it out, and get back to you guys.

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There is nothing wrong with the original mechanics of the genie.  Let me ask you this, why does it need to be fix?

It's a bug, it was never intended to function the way it functions now. It's been broken since day 1 of the game, it just wasn't noticed until much later when Nightmare came around causing things to scale crazily.

As I mentioned earlier, we can fix the bug without causing undue harm to anyone by buffing the genie to compensate, such that you'd probably more or less still get the mana you need, just not in a ridiculous and glitchy manner.

This is just my personal opinion (and it does not represent that of the rest of the CDT) but the current setup of things seems to drastically promote laziness, and makes people ignore many of the things that originally made DunDef stand out from other games of the genre (e.g. running around killing things). Unfortunately, the bug has persisted for so long that many people are used to it being the norm. That doesn't make it not broken, though.

Like schatten said though, if the community won't accept it, we won't do it. But I hope people will see that this is broken and should be fixed. If we released a bug that made all towers invincible, I don't think we'd want to leave that in.

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@Alhanalem quote:


There is nothing wrong with the original mechanics of the genie.  Let me ask you this, why does it need to be fix?

It's a bug, it was never intended to function the way it functions now. It's been broken since day 1 of the game, it just wasn't noticed until much later when Nightmare came around causing things to scale crazily.

As I mentioned earlier, we can fix the bug without causing undue harm to anyone by buffing the genie to compensate, such that you'd probably more or less still get the mana you need, just not in a ridiculous and glitchy manner.

This is just my personal opinion (and it does not represent that of the rest of the CDT) but the current setup of things seems to drastically promote laziness, and makes people ignore many of the things that originally made DunDef stand out from other games of the genre (e.g. running around killing things). Unfortunately, the bug has persisted for so long that many people are used to it being the norm. That doesn't make it not broken, though.

Like schatten said though, if the community won't accept it, we won't do it. But I hope people will see that this is broken and should be fixed. If we released a bug that made all towers invincible, I don't think we'd want to leave that in.

While running lab I had an idea (like most this one will be stupid)


What if we kept this swirling thing as it is up to nightmare, if u add a challenge level, one level higher than NM, where you can adjust the difficulty and implement the new genie technique there, make all campaign maps harder too, monsters are faster more hitpoints to like that savage map for example, those maps will give better rewards too.


So keep all as is upto nightmare, if possible create a savage NM mode with better rewards and gameplay tweaks? Is that possible? Sry for crappy english but my headache is back...

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As it is, we can't really add (in a practical sense that is) new loot tiers and difficulty modes. How would a difficulty above nightmare work? It would need to be mechanically different in some way. Your idea would work, it would be a huge undertaking to implement though.

You don't need this "swirling" thing to win any given level, people only use it to basically remove the upgrade process from the game. That being said, it could potentially result in future content being easier than intended if we don't fix it (e.g., upgrading everything on wave 1 vs taking a few waves to upgrade meaning the difference between winning and losing).


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@anotherengineer quote:

Big surprise all the hard core old schools complaining about the change.  (no offense guys)

I don't use a genie and upgrade from kills, takes about 5 waves though lol, so I guess it's not really fair of me to say one way or the other.

go try end game maps on wave 28 after this hits.  has nothing to do with challenge.  and not to take away upping.  we try to up as fast as possible, so we can go have fun and dps.

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@Alhanalem quote:


There is nothing wrong with the original mechanics of the genie.  Let me ask you this, why does it need to be fix?

It's a bug, it was never intended to function the way it functions now. It's been broken since day 1 of the game, it just wasn't noticed until much later when Nightmare came around causing things to scale crazily.

As I mentioned earlier, we can fix the bug without causing undue harm to anyone by buffing the genie to compensate, such that you'd probably more or less still get the mana you need, just not in a ridiculous and glitchy manner.

This is just my personal opinion (and it does not represent that of the rest of the CDT) but the current setup of things seems to drastically promote laziness, and makes people ignore many of the things that originally made DunDef stand out from other games of the genre (e.g. running around killing things). Unfortunately, the bug has persisted for so long that many people are used to it being the norm. That doesn't make it not broken, though.

Like schatten said though, if the community won't accept it, we won't do it. But I hope people will see that this is broken and should be fixed. If we released a bug that made all towers invincible, I don't think we'd want to leave that in.

what about it makes it a bug? how do you know that that was not the original intention of the game designers from day one? also if we cant nerf lab loot to a more reasonable level than i say we cant change genies ether. in my eyes what is possible for lob loot is a bug as well because i dont think it should be able to spawn that high from such an easy challenge. or if it can then evs shouldnt be able to jump off the edge. if we are going to keep one major thing the same so avoid making people mad then that sould apply to other areas as well.

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I have no problem with nerfing lab assault or make it harder, some time away from this game make you look at things in a different light, change is good, to much change might not be good but let's play the update first, and then judge :)

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Interesting discussion. I guess I belong to the "hardcore gamers" then since I have been using this technique from very early on in my way towards the harder nm maps. This is not a bug and I have to agree with rcdm here. This does not take the fun out of DD or remove any unique traits of the game. This is clearly not a QoL change as it will hurt more people than it will benefit. I know this last part is not an argument since some see it as a bug from day 1, but it is also such a cool thing about dd. You actually have the role of an upper now. Then it's actually adding a new type of builds into the game.

Anyways let the actual testers do their job first and listen to them. Not a biased noob like me ;)

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"what about it makes it a bug? how do you know that that was not the original intention of the game designers from day one?"

"This is not a bug and I have to agree with rcdm here."

Because the behavior is only seen under certain conditions, none of which are deliberately designed. We wouldn't make stuff like this up. There are LOTS of bugs in the game that have been there since day one (like the trade bug for instance). if you want a more technical proof, I obtained one from CrzyRndm, our scripter:

"The respond to damage code acted as if the animation finished 0.3 seconds before it actually did. It then tried to restart the animation which would prevent any further mana being granted. However, restarting the animation failed because the previous animation hadn't actually completed leaving a 0.3s window where each instance of damage dealt would grant a set of mana."


While we can debate whether or not it's a good thing for the game or not, it most definitely IS a bug we're dealing with here.


The genie was designed to give you more mana if you did more damage. the fact that you can get the maximum mana while using a weapon that does as little damage as possible goes against the inherent design of the pet. Which is why I proposed that we address the issue by increasing the genie's effect so that it functions properly but will still give you a good supply of mana.

Dungeon Defenders 2 recently dealt with a similar issue, where a bug caused the building prevention circle around the crystals from working. But people were used to it being that way because it has been in the game since it was released to the public. That doesn't mean it wasn't a bug. And what did they do? they polled the community, and decided not to fix the bug. That's basically where we are here. It is a bug, do we fix it or not?

Personally the way I see it, this bug trivializes a core mechanic of the game. But it seems like people aren't lamenting that because they consider it the most boring part of the game. I don't understand this myself, I like running around shooting things, upgrading, shooting some more, etc.

So while the end result may end up being you don't want us to fix it, we can't deny that it's a bug, because it is.

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@Alhanalem quote:


"what about it makes it a bug? how do you know that that was not the original intention of the game designers from day one?"

"This is not a bug and I have to agree with rcdm here."

Because the behavior is only seen under certain conditions, none of which are deliberately designed. We wouldn't make stuff like this up. There are LOTS of bugs in the game that have been there since day one (like the trade bug for instance). if you want a more technical proof, I obtained one from CrzyRndm, our scripter:

"The respond to damage code acted as if the animation finished 0.3 seconds before it actually did. It then tried to restart the animation which would prevent any further mana being granted. However, restarting the animation failed because the previous animation hadn't actually completed leaving a 0.3s window where each instance of damage dealt would grant a set of mana."


While we can debate whether or not it's a good thing for the game or not, it most definitely IS a bug we're dealing with here.


The genie was designed to give you more mana if you did more damage. the fact that you can get the maximum mana while using a weapon that does as little damage as possible goes against the inherent design of the pet. Which is why I proposed that we address the issue by increasing the genie's effect so that it functions properly but will still give you a good supply of mana.

Dungeon Defenders 2 recently dealt with a similar issue, where a bug caused the building prevention circle around the crystals from working. But people were used to it being that way because it has been in the game since it was released to the public. That doesn't mean it wasn't a bug. And what did they do? they polled the community, and decided not to fix the bug. That's basically where we are here. It is a bug, do we fix it or not?

Personally the way I see it, this bug trivializes a core mechanic of the game. But it seems like people aren't lamenting that because they consider it the most boring part of the game. I don't understand this myself, I like running around shooting things, upgrading, shooting some more, etc.

So while the end result may end up being you don't want us to fix it, we can't deny that it's a bug, because it is.

I never said it wasnt a bug.  Just wanted to know why the cdt's attention is being used to fix something the community has tolerated, and never complained about, instead of fixing the bugs that crash or hurt gameplay.  If I wanted the genie to work like this, i would open up dde. 

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I never said it wasnt a bug.  Just wanted to know why the cdt's attention is being used to fix something the community has tolerated, and never complained about, instead of fixing the bugs that crash or hurt gameplay.

Because we've accomplished a lot of that. Truth be told the delays on the release of moonbase gave us a lot of time to look at small stuff.

(I'm backing off talking about this for now, I feel like it's distracting us from getting feedback on rest of the patch)

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Well I admit if the scale makes it so even low dmg genies get high mana generation (around 1.2k+) i would totally love it, but it needs to scale in a way that makes everyone happy, we can't all farm ult+ genies, and it would create some kind of a gap, easy to upgrade for veterans and hard to get in for new players, because lets face it upgrading sucks even if its a game mechanic, it's way too boring... I like the idea of using another weapon than lupine bow/wolfenstein tho.

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@lapumette quote:

Well I admit if the scale makes it so even low dmg genies get high mana generation (around 1.2k+) i would totally love it, but it needs to scale in a way that makes everyone happy, we can't all farm ult+ genies, and it would create some kind of a gap, easy to upgrade for veterans and hard to get in for new players, because lets face it upgrading sucks even if its a game mechanic, it's way too boring... I like the idea of using another weapon than lupine bow/wolfenstein tho.

BF drill works rather nice too.

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Greetings from the scripting corner. I'm currently the primary scripter for the CDT and the change that everyone is so annoyed with was my idea. Most of my time for our first update has been spent hunting various bugs and inconsistencies in all sorts of places, and while doing so I happened to run into the cause of the genie granting significantly more than intended amounts of mana. I was warned that the backlash from this would be loud, but since scripting changes can be easily cherry picked for the live branch it was included in this test build to properly gauge reaction. Given the current state of affairs, that ability to not include something is with 99% certainty going to be used here.

Alhanalem has already quoted me explaining why this is a bug and not a conscious design decision by Trendy so I won't repeat that. I personally consider this bug to be of average or slightly above average priority as it breaks the game play principal of mana being a limited resource, as well as some of the illogical behaviour it incites in players to maximise the bugs effect (parts of that mentioned here by Russman). Finally, the complete lack of control and the inconsistency this bug creates over just how much mana is produced from a "swing" is unacceptable from the standpoint of a developer (even if I have to turn around and buff it back to match the point it was at originally).

================== To summarise ===========================
The chances of this change making it to the live build this time around are non-existent. You'll probably see it again in a future test with some other changes to make it more palatable, all I'm after at this point is a set of criteria to be met for it to be acceptable at that time.

===========================================================
Rcdm462
My time and attention is directed towards bugs as I find them, particularly in instances like this where fixing it was a matter of minutes (testing included). I've also discovered what causes ogres to endlessly walk into walls, an issue with the shops which would have allowed people to generate infinite mana in a tavern (resolved in the live moonbase build), moonbase being pushed to the bottom of the challenge list, and various other things in the same manner.

If you have bugs that you want resolved and I can resolve them, I will. Just point me at them (I can't chase what I don't know about and all that). I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel in that regard at the moment (spent 3-4 hours yesterday trying unsuccessfully to find out why the reflect beam thinks it has no kills in some places and not others...)

===========================================================
General
If there's something controversial on a testing version, chances will be quite high that I had a hand in it. I'm not going to pass over something just because it wouldn't be to the players advantage.

Some of the bugs and inconsistencies that I resolve will be to your advantage (see: gas traps always working on enemies with suppressed elemental affinity, weapon stats being clamped to a valid generation range which reduced the chance of getting a lovely unusable reward weapon, Imps and tower boost being able to repair traps, fixing how the TBB upgrades are applied (more info on that one at a later date)), and others will not be (genie stuff, spider webs in water, reflect beam not triggering the genie, etc.).

In the future I'll be pushing for balance changes to heroes, abilities, towers, items, and enemies. Not all of those will be buffs to the player (Lab Assault, Jester, Gas Traps) although a good number will be (SnD and Lightning Tower, Darkness traps, mana bomb, barbarian leap/pound). The status quo here is terrible with the same defences, the same heroes, almost all the same weapons, the same pets, and the same enemies posing a threat in every single game.

On top of all that, I also have several systems in mind that can be slowly developed as I get time to add interesting new gameplay possibilities (some proposed examples, a purpose for the elemental system beyond damage resistance, meaningful differences between the armour types, a total rework of how item max upgrades are determined to finally knock the modulo on its head without flooding the game with high quality items, adding some variety to the behaviour of staff and spear weapons, ...)

Whenever any of these more controversial things enters a public test, a flat refusal of it leaves me with only guesses as to how I can improve on the situation (and how future me can create better systems without creating a mob in the first place).

===========================================================
We are looking for feedback on all parts of this patch, not just the the change to the genie (and I'm always looking for new bugs to squash if your "favourite" pest is still alive)

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@CrzyRndm quote:

===========================================================
We are looking for feedback on all parts of this patch, not just the the change to the genie (and I'm always looking for new bugs to squash if your "favourite" pest is still alive)

I didn't see the killing platform glitch (Old One Fight) in the patch note ;)

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@CrzyRndm quote:

-snip-

While I'm not 100% on board with the genie change myself, I do appreciate that you're willing to put out some more controversial changes.

My thoughts on the genie change so far:

So far I've only run Buccaneer Bay and the Invasion challenge, so I am still not going to take a definite position on this issue. Overall, it is 100% a major inconvenience. It takes far longer to get the mana to upgrade... anything. Lupine Bows excluding holwing Werewolf are now basically impotent, as they just don't do enough damage to proc the full genie charge. (unless you put far too many upgrades into damage/elemental)

What I found in terms of mana generation: Ditch your lupine entirely and just use a staff. Otherwise you will not get enough mana to upgrade efficiently.

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@rcdm462 quote:

@anotherengineer quote:

Big surprise all the hard core old schools complaining about the change.  (no offense guys)

I don't use a genie and upgrade from kills, takes about 5 waves though lol, so I guess it's not really fair of me to say one way or the other.

go try end game maps on wave 28 after this hits.  has nothing to do with challenge.  and not to take away upping.  we try to up as fast as possible, so we can go have fun and dps.


I agree,  and also probably lose some good farms due to trying to upgrade everything with that additional time.  Tough call, glad it's not mine to make :)

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@Alhanalem quote:

The basic gist is that due to a glitch, it is currently possible to gain mana multipletimes per genie "attack." While many players are used to it, the result is you can get basically infinite mana as long as you have something to shoot at, something that was not intended. Because of this, some players may feel like they have no choice but to use the genie pet because it is so powerful, which is what we want to address.

To be clear, this isn't a change we're completely sure about, and not everyone on the team is on board with it, but we included it anyway so we could see if the community wanted this bug fixed or if they'd prefer we left it alone.

Please try it out before judging, and let us know if it makes things too much harder for you guys.

At least you realize that you should not be 'completely sure' about it.

At the risk of once again making mods irate, I have to call you out by saying that breaking that manasource just shows how out of touch you are and the entire CDT for all i know - and this time i'll skip public guessing at why that is so.

It is like going up to a new and breaking both their arms. Overgeared old asshats (and the usual slew of cheaters) with might trivially get by without even wearing a genie, but gutting it like that is just crippling and it is mindboggling that we even have to begin to explain how hard that will hit.


If you are going to break the "glitch", then genies need much better scaling or much more frequent "attack". It gets results, unlike that antiquated redtape thinking that this "glitch correction" is.


While im here though (Momoto's match is a bit boring to watch atm), it would do you a lot more credit to put an end to the overhitting "glitch" that gets exploited from all day every day and to hell and back.

You know what i am referring to: circumventing certain bossfight limitations, not limited to hawkstriking on the GenieKing and Goblin Gunship.

That will of course also be wildly unpopular, but going back and adjusting how those fights work would be a massive improvement and put and end to the "go barb or go home" attitude (with the unspoken implicit expectation of showing up with OP/hacked ult/+/++ weaps).

Suggestion: strip those immunity periods competely or drastically lower the number of them to 1-4 making 2-5 dps phases on bosses.


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@Sir NoVa quote:

Would this solution mean that those who own Mana Master will be in an unfair advantage, as the generic Genies are not able to come close to the base dmg MM has? As it is now, the difference does not matter that much except the perfect hero stats, I can imagine this approach making MMs too good, if not becoming a must for keeping the mana generations as it is currently.

Best genie so far, a bit over 30k upgraded. That is "close enough" to manamaster for all intents unless that has some hidden advantages.

Hella rare to get that good though. I have another at 16k and 11k, which is a lot more common and more in the realm of realistically achieveable.

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Hmm, thats a hot topic here, i see many are afraid of sqaushing a bug, as they dont want to be made up for constant mana farm during waves, i too see mana gathering as a bit slow process only to be even slower after the bug is vanquished. Though it is in my opinion that we in fact need something more in addition, i propose extending mana pool especialy for players above lvl 74, as after implenting solution proposed by crazy, 20k (rather common) geenies should be able to make around 2k mana per swing, while those with 40k, or even 60k, should make far more than that, this would also let people divide upgrading and mana gathering into longer time periods rather than beeing forced to constantly run there and back only becuse we are in fact limited with rather small mana poll. 

an average of du taken by towers/minions build by player would be around 5 i think, so with 100 du we have around 50 towers/archers, to upgrade one tower fully to 3 stars we need to collect 2600 mana,  that makes us gather 130 000 mana to up map completely. pool is 2200 if im correct, that means we have to gather mana over 60 times to upgrade our defenses, and that consindering we always completely fill out mana pool, and we use it all, which propably makes us gather mana like half times more. if mana pool on max level would be like 6600, we would have to do it like 3 times less often,

tell me what you think guys :D

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@Tydo quote:


@Sir NoVa quote:

Would this solution mean that those who own Mana Master will be in an unfair advantage, as the generic Genies are not able to come close to the base dmg MM has? As it is now, the difference does not matter that much except the perfect hero stats, I can imagine this approach making MMs too good, if not becoming a must for keeping the mana generations as it is currently.

Best genie so far, a bit over 30k upgraded. That is "close enough" to manamaster for all intents unless that has some hidden advantages.

Hella rare to get that good though. I have another at 16k and 11k, which is a lot more common and more in the realm of realistically achieveable.

30k genies come around more often than you may think, at least for me. I do agree that anything over 30k is rather pointless an will hold no advantage on current update (not the beta).

Personally I don't like the "fix" to the genie at the expense of losing the amount of mana collection it currently has. I can see how it is a bug, but I see it more as an exploit. In the same sense you can build pretty much at 1 crystal for Sky City, forcing the enemies to move to 1 area by aggro.

It's interesting to see how this came up to be fixed especially since nobody asked for it, as mentioned in previous posts.

In short: I don't like the "new" genie.

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@Tydo quote:



@Alhanalem quote:

The basic gist is that due to a glitch, it is currently possible to gain mana multipletimes per genie "attack." While many players are used to it, the result is you can get basically infinite mana as long as you have something to shoot at, something that was not intended. Because of this, some players may feel like they have no choice but to use the genie pet because it is so powerful, which is what we want to address.

To be clear, this isn't a change we're completely sure about, and not everyone on the team is on board with it, but we included it anyway so we could see if the community wanted this bug fixed or if they'd prefer we left it alone.

Please try it out before judging, and let us know if it makes things too much harder for you guys.

At least you realize that you should not be 'completely sure' about it.

At the risk of once again making mods irate, I have to call you out by saying that breaking that manasource just shows how out of touch you are and the entire CDT for all i know - and this time i'll skip public guessing at why that is so.

It is like going up to a new and breaking both their arms. Overgeared old asshats (and the usual slew of cheaters) with might trivially get by without even wearing a genie, but gutting it like that is just crippling and it is mindboggling that we even have to begin to explain how hard that will hit.


If you are going to break the "glitch", then genies need much better scaling or much more frequent "attack". It gets results, unlike that antiquated redtape thinking that this "glitch correction" is.


While im here though (Momoto's match is a bit boring to watch atm), it would do you a lot more credit to put an end to the overhitting "glitch" that gets exploited from all day every day and to hell and back.

You know what i am referring to: circumventing certain bossfight limitations, not limited to hawkstriking on the GenieKing and Goblin Gunship.

That will of course also be wildly unpopular, but going back and adjusting how those fights work would be a massive improvement and put and end to the "go barb or go home" attitude (with the unspoken implicit expectation of showing up with OP/hacked ult/+/++ weaps).

Suggestion: strip those immunity periods competely or drastically lower the number of them to 1-4 making 2-5 dps phases on bosses.


LolWut.

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