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CDT Update 1 - Genie Fix Discussion

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The genie is a great pet for gathering mana and many know that the genie swirl can be used to fill up completely with mana in a matter of seconds using this technique/glitch depending on how you might look at it. There was some debate within the CDT as to whether this is something that should be fixed or not since it has been this way for years yet it is still a bug. However, changes that go and stay are ultimately decided by the community. Therefore this fix was implemented so that you could test it without the glitch and provide your opinion on which behavior you prefer. 

Some may like the new gameplay and some may not. I know some will automatically not like it and that is fine. “I don't like it. Please change it back.” is an acceptable response. We just ask you give your constructive feedback below.

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What exactly is being changed about the return swing?

Supposing a fire elemental lupine vs no element ogre:

Before the change, 5 projectiles + 5 instances of elemental damage would proc the genie 10(?) times, generating large amounts of mana.

Does this change make it so only that one shot is applied, or will the extra projectiles and elemntal damage be removed as well, causing only a single activation?

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The basic gist is that due to a glitch, it is currently possible to gain mana multipletimes per genie "attack." While many players are used to it, the result is you can get basically infinite mana as long as you have something to shoot at, something that was not intended. Because of this, some players may feel like they have no choice but to use the genie pet because it is so powerful, which is what we want to address.

To be clear, this isn't a change we're completely sure about, and not everyone on the team is on board with it, but we included it anyway so we could see if the community wanted this bug fixed or if they'd prefer we left it alone.

Please try it out before judging, and let us know if it makes things too much harder for you guys.

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the genie is terrible now.  it took all the fun outta making upping jesters.  if this isnt changed back, idk if i can continue to play.  Please put it back to the way it was.

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If "we can't nerf this or that because it has been like that for way to long that it would just poss people off at this point" than I don't get why people would think that changing an even more core concept the the game is acceptable. I think that this is unaccaptable and should be changed back to how it was. 

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I totally agree with harry and rcdm it has been in the game since the start its too late for a change when there are  people who have created jesters solely for the purpose of upgrading with genies


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There is another option. We can increase the mana given so that the genie is still effective while a bug gets squashed. Would that be more acceptable?

A bug that people are used to because it's been in the game forever is still a bug (not a "core concept.").

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Hi. Not played the Beta[so ignore me at your leisure].

However, [being an opinionated chap I am going to say anyway] this seems like an odd place to start with proposed changes as NO-ONE seemed to be calling for it.





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The beauty of these public beta periods is that they give us an opportunity to try things out. The CDT has made a particularly controversial change. Try it out. If at the end of the day the community doesn't like the change (bug fix or not) then it won't make it into the live game.

That's the beauty of the system. It's totally not a zero sum game.

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I am currently downloading the patch so I have not seen this change yet, but if I'm understanding it correctly, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD CHANGE IT BACK!

That is all :)

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Here's something that's being tossed around:

There are those in the CDT that want the bug aspect of this to be fixed. We see that nobody wants their super high mana generation taken away. So, here is one proposal that was made:


We fix this bug, and then we adjust the cap on mana return per hit on the Genie, so that it is possible to generate more mana on a single hit. This way, the malfunction is fixed, but you still get tons of mana. As an added benefit, you're less restricted in what kinds of weapons you can use and what hero you use.

Would that sit better with you guys?

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Would this solution mean that those who own Mana Master will be in an unfair advantage, as the generic Genies are not able to come close to the base dmg MM has? As it is now, the difference does not matter that much except the perfect hero stats, I can imagine this approach making MMs too good, if not becoming a must for keeping the mana generations as it is currently.

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I personally would not consider the genie swirl and how it is employed as a "glitch" or "bug". An exploit maybe. Currently there are some that use it (alot) and some who do not (maybe). To change it to it's new incarnation is blasphemous. It's not a problem, it doesn't break the game and it was not asked for. Changes the CDT come up with that enhance or build upon the great game that is already there is great but changing existing mechanics that many have grown accustomed to and to an extent rely upon is ludicrous in my opinion. I say leave the genie swirl alone, I definitely would not play DD as much if I have to scrounge mana all the time and making genies gather more per attack will not be the same as what we have now.

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@Alhanalem quote:

Here's something that's being tossed around:

There are those in the CDT that want the bug aspect of this to be fixed. We see that nobody wants their super high mana generation taken away. So, here is one proposal that was made:


We fix this bug, and then we adjust the cap on mana return per hit on the Genie, so that it is possible to generate more mana on a single hit. This way, the malfunction is fixed, but you still get tons of mana. As an added benefit, you're less restricted in what kinds of weapons you can use and what hero you use.

Would that sit better with you guys?

That sounds like a nice compromise.  I didn't get into "swirling" until late in my playing time so I'm not a married to it as some here appear to be.  It always felt a little weird that here I am, defending my crystals by trying to NOT kill the monsters.  Trying to keep monsters alive so I can milk them for mana felt a little out of synch to me.

It seems like the combination that should give you full 2020 mana is a high quality genie along with doing lots of damage.


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@Alhanalem quote:

There is another option. We can increase the mana given so that the genie is still effective while a bug gets squashed. Would that be more acceptable?

A bug that people are used to because it's been in the game forever is still a bug (not a "core concept.").

Make a new genie pet for those ppl who like the mechanic this way.  I live to either dump mana or up  like crazy.  Any map.  Please dont do this to us!!!

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If we're going to get rid of the exploit, the best genie should still be around 29k. I don't want to use a mana master. You see how crappy that cast rate stat it? 

That being said, I'm still against getting rid of the exploit. Upgrading is tedious as is, this will only make the process more annoying and longer, aka the opposite of fun.

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@curtisgk quote:

If we're going to get rid of the exploit, the best genie should still be around 29k. I don't want to use a mana master. You see how crappy that cast rate stat it? 

That being said, I'm still against getting rid of the exploit. Upgrading is tedious as is, this will only make the process more annoying and longer, aka the opposite of fun.

Maybe I'm missing something, but the best you could do with swirling was to get 2020 mana per genie swirl.  So if they change the scaling on the genie such that a good genie and a good weapon gets you 2020 mana per swirl, what would have been lost?

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@russman quote:


@curtisgk quote:

If we're going to get rid of the exploit, the best genie should still be around 29k. I don't want to use a mana master. You see how crappy that cast rate stat it? 

That being said, I'm still against getting rid of the exploit. Upgrading is tedious as is, this will only make the process more annoying and longer, aka the opposite of fun.

Maybe I'm missing something, but the best you could do with swirling was to get 2020 mana per genie swirl.  So if they change the scaling on the genie such that a good genie and a good weapon gets you 2020 mana per swirl, what would have been lost?

That would mean bumping it up to 2020 mana for a decent genie. It'll be idiotic to do that if it requires a really high damage genie because it means people that can't get high end genies will lose out. I don't want to be forced to use a mana master or farm an ult++ genie to get max mana when I've been able to forever. This is just a massive inconvenience to a working system. Only reason to fix it is if it's affecting other things. 

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@curtisgk quote:
That would mean bumping it up to 2020 mana for a decent genie. It'll be idiotic to do that if it requires a really high damage genie because it means people that can't get high end genies will lose out. I don't want to be forced to use a mana master or farm an ult++ genie to get max mana when I've been able to forever. This is just a massive inconvenience to a working system. Only reason to fix it is if it's affecting other things. 

I agree that the scaling would be important.  You don't want garbage genies able to hit 2020 and you don't want only .01% of genies to reach it either.  I also think in addition to the genie, the amount of damage the hero deals could be taken into account.  This might open up more genies to be able to reach 2020.  And it would seem to reward the "normal" gameplay (ie doing tons of damage to baddies) better than the current system.

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They way I see it, if you have to change the genie, that requires more testing and waiting.  There is nothing wrong with the original mechanics of the genie.  Let me ask you this, why does it need to be fix?  Is it messing up some dynamic I do not understand?  What is the purpose of this change?

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Big surprise all the hard core old schools complaining about the change.  (no offense guys)

I don't use a genie and upgrade from kills, takes about 5 waves though lol, so I guess it's not really fair of me to say one way or the other.

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