Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I have been addicted to the Dungeon Defenders franchise for quite a while now, approaching 500+ hours on the original game(s) and moving on to DD2. Overall, I think it's a great game. I love everything that was done with it so far! However, there is one quirk that I do not enjoy.


I have never known a DD boss to go around defenses and go straight for the defense nodes. Now, there were instances where bosses went -through- defense points (The goblin mech), but going around them feels like a very cheap trick that just places the whole thing on a timer. Also in the case of the goblin mech, there were methods to prevent him plowing through the defenses, and when he was through he still focused on murdering players while the mobs followed through and went for the crystal.

Betsy however goes straight for the egg. You can't taunt her off it, and she's just a big pile of health to munch through, something which defeats the notation of "difficulty should involve adding new mechanics, not piling on more health". This is not a new mechanic, it's just piling on more health. The difficulty is killing her before she destroys your egg.


All around this has been the least enjoyable boss I've ever played against. It's not even the curse mechanics which are causing this, it's the fact that every so often she flies around and bombs the middle lane egg, giving the player very little that they can do about it. It's essentially a gear score. If your gear isn't X, you lose. While I understand that DD is partly about gear, making a boss a gear check doesn't make them involved or fun.


The dragon boss from the original is a good example of a boss which can be engaging and tense. Our gear wasn't ideal when we fought the dragon, and it took us 20-30 minutes to finally kill the thing, but we did it, and we had fun racing around to repair defenses and bring the dragon down. But in all of this, the dragon never went directly for the crystal, letting us beat it through intense cooperation and focus. Many of the other bosses involve a degree of know how, skill, and planning to beat. Even the genie, despite the fact he was -incredibly annoying-, left players with a sense of urgency without overstepping it and making it feel futile.


This boss is not a skill fight, it is a gear fight. That is not fun for me. If the bosses ahead follow this principal as well, I feel it's not the best of paths to take for DD2's final battles.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed entirely, Betsy's pretty poorly designed as an engaging boss fight at the moment. She doesn't feel fun to fight, just stressful and unfair. There's something about 'just sit there and left click until she runs off and eventually kills the eggs' that doesn't get me pumped.

I say this a lot about it but music plays a very important role in a video game. A boss fight should have a complementary piece that makes you feel a part of the action. Reusing an earlier battle phase theme just seems, well, lame. I mean I guess it's technically fitting currently but I assume that's not the intention.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i like the pseudo timer, adds an extra level of pressure


... but it would be much more engaging if she wasnt flying off every so often leaving players with nothing to do but wait for her to land 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we could at least shoot her as she's flying around...


Also, she doesn't have eyelids, therefore never blinks. Scary stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just as a random idea, perhaps they could make her ignite the eggs, forcing the player(s) to get water to douse the fires. That'd give them something to do while she flies around, doesn't totally strip out the mechanic, but also adds a skill/preparation element as well. The move speed orb would be quite handy in that situation. But even without, a player who is attentive could still put the fires out before significant damage is done.

Then she still attacks the egg, but it's less of a significant impact as long as the player(s) are bouncing around putting the fires out. Then when she's almost dead, it brings about that anxious dilemma of. . does one DPS her down before the eggs burn down, or do they rush around putting the fires out again while risking an opportunity to kill her?

Also if the defenses are low on health, the player(s) have to make a decision. . put out the fires, or repair the defenses. Not an easy decision to make, and the wrong choice could be costly. But the way this game is designed, one could even do both.

Or, yes, making her vulnerable while she's in flight would help. Turret placement would be far more crucial in that instance, since you'd want them to hit her when she flies past.

I do think changes need to be made to allow for a more enjoyable boss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Entirely agreeing on everything stated in the OP.

Having lost to Betsy in freeplay numerous times I'm utterly frustrated at her insane amount of HP if you have no alternative characters and are focused on defense power to keep your wins happening.

A tower defense game where the boss is utterly ignoring towers and does not give a feasible amount of time to build towers against is unintuitive.

Even if you can build a few towers during the wave against Betsy, she just plows through them easily or otherwise they're ineffective enough against her insane health chunks and RNG-ish flyoff to hurt your defense nodes (royal eggs).


I'd love to see some form of defense against her direct attack like waiting near the egg and hitting besty before she uses her fire breath causing her to fly off.


One thing I do not agree with currently is the idea of hitting Betsy as she flies off, while the idea is cute on paper, the huntress, monk and half of the Squire's towers don't fit for this - in addition to the fact that the squire only has 1 ranged attack to even reach Betsy to begin with.


I'd like to see area-of-effect attacks against Betsy more effective, she's huge and it seems weird for her to take the normal damage from a large area of effect attack like the apprentice's mana bomb.



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Yoraiz0r quote:

Entirely agreeing on everything stated in the OP.

Having lost to Betsy in freeplay numerous times I'm utterly frustrated at her insane amount of HP if you have no alternative characters and are focused on defense power to keep your wins happening.

A tower defense game where the boss is utterly ignoring towers and does not give a feasible amount of time to build towers against is unintuitive.

Even if you can build a few towers during the wave against Betsy, she just plows through them easily or otherwise they're ineffective enough against her insane health chunks and RNG-ish flyoff to hurt your defense nodes (royal eggs).


with sufficient range on your towers you can place high range towers (i use harpoons, id guess earthshatters would work too)on the two middle stumps they will damage betsy when she lands (but still defend the lane in the waves before they're closed off)... im not completely sure because i dont pay enough attention but AA towers also damage betsy, ive definitely seen them shooting her when she lands but im not sure if they persist whilst shes grounded (they could be attacking wyverns)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@Grim indeed quote:


@Yoraiz0r quote:

Entirely agreeing on everything stated in the OP.

Having lost to Betsy in freeplay numerous times I'm utterly frustrated at her insane amount of HP if you have no alternative characters and are focused on defense power to keep your wins happening.

A tower defense game where the boss is utterly ignoring towers and does not give a feasible amount of time to build towers against is unintuitive.

Even if you can build a few towers during the wave against Betsy, she just plows through them easily or otherwise they're ineffective enough against her insane health chunks and RNG-ish flyoff to hurt your defense nodes (royal eggs).


with sufficient range on your towers you can place high range towers (i use harpoons, id guess earthshatters would work too)on the two middle stumps they will damage betsy when she lands (but still defend the lane in the waves before they're closed off)... im not completely sure because i dont pay enough attention but AA towers also damage betsy, ive definitely seen them shooting her when she lands but im not sure if they persist whilst shes grounded (they could be attacking wyverns)

Last I checked they do. In fact, Earthshatter misses/doesn't try because she's classed as flying too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@Faysumi quote:
@Grim indeed quote:


@Yoraiz0r quote:

Entirely agreeing on everything stated in the OP.

Having lost to Betsy in freeplay numerous times I'm utterly frustrated at her insane amount of HP if you have no alternative characters and are focused on defense power to keep your wins happening.

A tower defense game where the boss is utterly ignoring towers and does not give a feasible amount of time to build towers against is unintuitive.

Even if you can build a few towers during the wave against Betsy, she just plows through them easily or otherwise they're ineffective enough against her insane health chunks and RNG-ish flyoff to hurt your defense nodes (royal eggs).


with sufficient range on your towers you can place high range towers (i use harpoons, id guess earthshatters would work too)on the two middle stumps they will damage betsy when she lands (but still defend the lane in the waves before they're closed off)... im not completely sure because i dont pay enough attention but AA towers also damage betsy, ive definitely seen them shooting her when she lands but im not sure if they persist whilst shes grounded (they could be attacking wyverns)

Last I checked they do. In fact, Earthshatter misses/doesn't try because she's classed as flying too.

i hadnt tried earthshatter, was just guessing, nice to have confirmation

... if shes classed as constantly flying then it would explain why i see AA towers constantly attacking her right? so maybe im not crazy?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a "hard enrage" mechanic.  Kind of like aquanos filling up with water, or boss wave mobs destroying everything in 30s on nightmare akatiti.  Not every boss should be able to be slowly burned to the ground over as long as it takes you.  Perhaps continually ramping up the level of mobs during the betsy encounter would be a more palatable way of accomplishing the same thing, but it would also be more complicated to implement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the idea of ramping up the minion waves, as it forces players to be more involved and pay attention to what's going on around them. Sticking a boss battle on a timer, as I mentioned before, is not engaging. Defeat boss in X or you lose.

It's a gear score. Good tower placement makes a difference too, but ultimately that's all it amounts to is a gear score. If your gear isn't good enough, you lose. This is not 'difficult', it just makes it so I don't even want to bother, because I know I can't beat it.

There are other bosses in DD history where you MIGHT beat it. It doesn't look like you can beat it, but you know how they work, so you try harder and harder, and then you suddenly get every variable just right and you win by being engaged and by improving as a player. This is the essence of difficulty, to challenge a player to improve their skills so that they can overcome a challenge which seemed impossible. Gear score challenges are 'You must be this awesome to ride' challenges that are not difficult, they are brainless and don't reward a player for skill, or perseverance.  While the original DD had gear scores as well, (hell, you couldn't even beat the Leviathan unless your hero was ranged and built for attack damage), perseverance was rewarding as well. A battle could take a very long time, but a battle could be beat with focus and determination.

This made the original fun for me. Betsy is no focus, no determination, just plop your turrets down, whack her across the head with your weapons, and hope your gear is good enough to win. That's it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Name one boss in all of Dungeon Defenders that attacks objectives.

...Betsy. And that's it.

  • Demon lord attacks defenses so normal enemies can destroy the crystal.
  • Goblin Mech pushes defenses aside and destroys them so normal enemies can destroy the crystal.
  • Ancient Dragon shoots fireballs that destroy defenses so normal enemies can destroy the crystal.
  • Spider Queen webs and attacks defenses so normal enemies can destroy the crystal.
  • Genie King fricking hides in lamps and plays the attrition game with your defenses so normal enemies can eventually break through and destroy the crystal.
  • Kraken hovers around and attacks defenses so normal enemies can destroy the crystal.
  • Goblin airship flies in circles around the map lobbing bombs at defenses so normal enemies can destroy the crystal.
  • Old One does not have any objectives to attack - it's just you vs. him.

Notice a pattern? There's a reason no other boss attacks cores directly - It's terrible game design.

I'm not normally one to pull out the "tag a dev" card, but [[59260,users]], this is really something I want you to read. Please bring Betsy in alignment with other bosses in Dungeon Defenders - make her attack defenses and not the eggs directly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One option would be to let Betsy attack the eggs if unimpeded, but give players some way to counter it.  She hovers at the back of the map for a few seconds before damaging the eggs, so make her retreat if she takes a certain amount of damage during that time.  Maybe she could attack the offending defense or player instead of the egg to keep the players engaged at that side of the map too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

a DPS check boss in a game that is basically constant dps checks to kill mobs before they destroy your stuff isnt a problem in my eyes


having to kill her before a time limit (egg destruction) is up adds a bit of lethality to the fight; you cant just ignore her, shes a big bad boss, she should be the center of attention, you shouldnt be able to ignore her for as long as you want


my problems with the fight are two

- why is she landing (and always in the same spot, and always staying in that spot)? she can fly and rain fireballs, its stupid that she voluntarily lands and lets defences/heroes beat on her (looking at DD1, the dragon/crystalline dragon had to be shot out of the sky)

- lack of player.... i forget the word... like agency... during the time shes in the air... we have absolutely no impact on her states (which ties into the first point)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


@tdb quote:

One option would be to let Betsy attack the eggs if unimpeded, but give players some way to counter it.  She hovers at the back of the map for a few seconds before damaging the eggs, so make her retreat if she takes a certain amount of damage during that time.  Maybe she could attack the offending defense or player instead of the egg to keep the players engaged at that side of the map too.

I'd still prefer she attack defenses and players, not objectives.

@Grim indeed quote:

having to kill her before a time limit (egg destruction) is up adds a bit of lethality to the fight; you cant just ignore her, shes a big bad boss, she should be the center of attention, you shouldnt be able to ignore her for as long as you want

I do agree that we shouldn't have unlimited time to kill her, but Betsy personally destroying the eggs isn't the answer. I'd much rather have enemies slowly increase in health and damage until they become powerful enough to overwhelm defenses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting feedback and good notes! We don't have time to revisit Betsy's design at the moment, but we'll keep this in mind for future bosses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...