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Let us Build a Real Hero Deck


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I was thinking about it for a while, and thought some really cool stuff could be done if the Hero Deck changed into more of a deck building aspect of the game, filled by players with cards they could unlock through challenges or level requirements with different heros.

For example (using the same base 4 slots we have now) Imagine choosing the following cards:

  • Squire
  • Huntress
  • Betsy (Gained by defeating Betsy on [X] difficulty, solo maybe?)
  • Bomber (Gained by defeating [X] bombers before they're allowed to explode)
I can easily picture something like this giving these kinds of bonuses:


For having a Squire/Huntress combo:

  • Corrupt Squire - Cannons now fire globs of poison which hit an initial target dealing magic damage. Enemies hit leave trails of poison for [x] seconds which poison mobs who step walk into them
  • Big game Huntress - Poison Dart Towers range broadened & fire mini cannonballs for physical damage in a shotgun-like blast. Enemies closer to the tower take more damage than those who are further away

And for the creature cards I was picturing this:

  • Betsy - Non-aura defenses curse the ground around them causing melee attackers to do [X%] reduced damage
  • Bomber - Any defenses which are destroyed explode doing [X%] of their maximum health as damage  to nearby enemies

I really like the idea of being able to build a mini 'deck' which could easily be adjusted to fulfill different roles in different ways especially if some cards can combo together for different or greater effects.

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Super interesting and fun sounding

Unfortunately, this would tack on a heavy amount of extra work.  And the team is already struggling with what's on their plate currently


The best suggestions, to me, are the ones that are cool AND are very light on implementation

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@Pachipachio quote:

Super interesting and fun sounding

Unfortunately, this would tack on a heavy amount of extra work.  And the team is already struggling with what's on their plate currently


The best suggestions, to me, are the ones that are cool AND are very light on implementation

It may take some time, but if It's fun & adds more to the game I'm all for it :)

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So, if I am reading this right you would like to move passives and ubers to cards and have them unlock throughout the games campaign and other modes?

This is, quite interesting actually. Hunting for cards throughout the game. Like an award for achievement style challenges. It also kills the hard 4-hero limit. 

You know, this paired with giga's map based builder limit is starting to really grow on me. Matter of fact I'll say this:

At first glance I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, LOVE THIS IDEA

I will contemplate the design implications a bit more but please, please keep the dialogue going on this idea. Im thinking Witcher 3 Gwent level awesomeness but its integrated to the core gameplay and taken to the next level.

[[44989,users]] ...you slick mofo, well done!

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I would love to see [[31834,users]] weigh in on this topic. Specifically,how this might integrate into the ideas he had for the hero deck change. I love the idea of hunting cards and building a deck that holds value but fear for balance and strategy.

My concern is: removing the hero deck limitation only to somewhat add it back by limiting the effect of builders and action heroes (dps, tanks, support, etc.) without assigned cards. Currently, this may work. But in the future it may not be enough to have 5 cards...some math:

10 Heroes x 2.5 Passives = 25 Possible builder specs (not including hybrids)

10 Heroes x 1.5 Roles = 15 Possible action hero specs (not all classes might be able to fulfill two roles)

40 possibilities! These are conservative numbers as well. Every hero may be able to spec tank/dps/rep/stun, etc. Hybrids may be a big deal. Hero classes may skyrocket (more classes to play - more skins and hero slot sales) and ubers/Passives may become mandatory for all towers. Much to consider in the long term. Let's here more thoughts.

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Thanks [[17835,users]] for the tag - it's an interesting concept for sure.

In other threads, I've mentioned that the only way for the concept of the hero deck to be fair is by implementing it per team/group instead of per person. Using this suggestion, hero cards and global boost cards could be implemented. For example:

  • All defenses deal significantly more damage.
  • All defenses attack significantly faster.
  • All defenses have significantly more range.
  • All defenses deal aditional AoE damage
  • All defenses deal additional poison damage.
  • Any defenses destroyed deals a huge amount of damage to nearby enemies.
  • All heroes have unlimited repair and upgrade range.
  • All heroes deal significantly more damage.
  • All heroes have regen.
  • Heroes respawn much faster.
  • Squire builder card
  • Monk builder card
  • Huntress builder card
  • Apprentice builder card

Then as a team we pick 4 of them. Solo players can pick all 4, while co-op players choose 1 or 2 depending on how many players are in a match. We can either have 4 heroes using a more diverse build, or 1 hero and 3 global boosts, making that single hero's defenses extra powerful to make up for the lack of diversity. Co-op building would be much more rewarding, and if you're not building you can contribute a global boost card. This makes the player feel vital to the build, regardless of whether or not they are actually building.

As we progress through the game, we could unlock additional global boost cards that we can then bring to matches. Ideally it would be awesome if there were hundreds of cards available and which global boost cards we unlocked were random or varied, so every group we are paired up with would each contribute different cards that would produce different builds.

This concept could easily scale with the entire lifetime of the game, scale throughout all player levels, and be fair between solo and co-op. I give it a 10/10.

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I have to say...

I think this is the most excited I have been since the day I got into the Defense Council!

This idea when fused with Gigas original thought becomes something so appealing and so unique to any game I have played in decades, I believe it to be a defining design implementation!

It really does solve all the hero deck issues and balance issues we have discussed. All the people that love the hero deck limitation still get that effect but somehow it also gives the anti-deckers the freedom they crave as well as the strategy element that the game needs!

This quote sums it up perfectly:

@gigazelle quote:

This concept could easily scale with the entire lifetime of the game, scale throughout all player levels, and be fair between solo and co-op. I give it a 10/10.

I have been thinking that we should create a list of functions that TE can check out and consider. If they find the idea as appealing as some of us already have maybe they can discuss the merits and drawbacks with us!

I'll start the list but would love to see it become a group project (maybe we can get the OP to add it to the top post). Here are some of our ideas at this time...all subject to change and improvement of course!


1) Hero Cards can function as the new passive-build system. Loot will be contextually useful based on stats.

2) Hero Cards can be obtainable in many ways throughout all game modes and levels. 

3) Hero Cards can have rarity levels that are descriptive of their functionality and power: Legendary, Mythic, Epic, etc. (Giga's "All Defenses" series may be Legendary Cards for example)

4) Hero Cards are unique, no stacking, and only drop once per player. Every drop is a new card. (No % based effect that changes drop to drop turning this into a new and more insane grind fest.)

5) Hero Cards can be useable as game balance dictates and to varying degrees based on maps and player count. (This is TBD by TE and should reference [[31834,users]] 's work in the area of scalable strategic game balance.)

6) Hero Cards can have gem based skin purchases that add a new look and special animations when "played" by people at the start of the map.

7) Hero slots beyond 4-6 should still be gem-purchases as it won't interfere with game balance and won't be P2W with this system (1 Hero could build a map win if playing a powerful card set.)

8) ...your idea here!

9) ...your idea here!

10) ...your idea here!


Feel free to add to this or make a case for one to be removed. Can't wait to see what we can com up with!

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Just wanted to add some math:

100 Cards in first rollout.

10 Legendaries.

250-400 gems per skin.

Up to 25-40 dollars in card skins per whale and varying income from the community at large. This is just legendary skins!!!

HUGE potential for a new revenue stream!

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@Lazaek quote:


For example (using the same base 4 slots we have now) Imagine choosing the following cards:


This one line right here makes this idea just as bad as the current deck. It doesn't address the inequality and will in fact probably make it worse if you haven't unlocked these cards.

Second I a m here to play DD2 a tower defense game not Hearthstone were I flip over or select cards to direct my game play style. I do not like this idea at all.

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@Chappyy quote:


@Lazaek quote:

For example (using the same base 4 slots we have now) Imagine choosing the following cards:

This one line right here makes this idea just as bad as the current deck. It doesn't address the inequality and will in fact probably make it worse if you haven't unlocked these cards.

Second I a m here to play DD2 a tower defense game not Hearthstone were I flip over or select cards to direct my game play style. I do not like this idea at all.

Four was just an example to help explain the idea without being too drastically different from what people are used to now :)

As far as balance or inequality, (without you listing specifics) Think of how a lot of people have a lot of frustrations over getting the drops they want or otherwise need to progress. Now imaging having a card that let's players trade drops at the end of a successfully cleared map that doesn't actually offer combat bonuses.

It might look something like this:

1JypD8b.jpg

(Maybe a little over the top, but you get the idea)

Those players would have to sacrifice other bonuses/effects with the trade off being that trading drops with each other from completing maps would help the group as a whole considerably.

And a big part of this comes from me missing having games with other gaming aspects or outright mini-games. Think going to the Golden Saucer in FF7, playing Triple Triad in FF8, or even Gwent from Witcher III.

With some clever tweaking I can't think of any frustrations players are experiencing now that couldn't be solved with something like this.


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[[44989,users]] 

While I am not as militantly adamant about DD2 maintaining the core of DD1 as [[70482,users]] is, I do have concern about the last idea.

One of my posts included this:


@Satori quote:

4) Hero Cards are unique, no stacking, and only drop once per player. Every drop is a new card. (No % based effect that changes drop to drop turning this into a new and more insane grind fest.)



I think it is important to stay away from the TCG (Trading Card Game) model and rather embrace the LCG (Living Card Game) model. For an example of LCG and its differences from TCG see Fantasy Flight Games LCG page.

No booster packs with random cards, no buying and buying or grinding and grinding. No trading. Unlockable through gameplay and unique drops so no duplicates and wasted drops. This actually helps the monetization because it gets the cards in people's decks to be skinned. If people can't seem to get that one dang card they want...they can't buy the skin. 

Frustration about grinding for cards will pile on top of grind for gear and grinding for alt and money and pets and pet food. People will complain: "I like to solo and the people with friends get full decks faster due to trading". No, keep it simple: play the game and unlock cards. By the time you have geared 50s you will have most if not all cards if you apply yourself. 

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@Satori quote:

/snip

I wasn't referring to trading cards, I was suggesting a card that could be used to trade loot drops from a map after it was completed :)

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@Lazaek quote:


@Satori quote:

/snip

I wasn't referring to trading cards, I was suggesting a card that could be used to trade loot loot drops from a map after it was completed :)

Oooohhhhhh crap. My fault, lol. Sorry about that. I misunderstood!

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I understand the comments on the alt leveling thread about TE having a full plate but...


1) We've been asked repeatedly to provide feedback and suggestions. 

2) I have seen community feedback change the game for over a year.

3) Hero Deck changes are already confirmed...so work is being done.

4) Ubers are confirmed to be getting a refresh possibly even complete makeover/removal...so work is being done.

5) Passives are confirmed to being looked at and possibly redesigned...so work is being done.

6) Loot stats are being reworked in relation to passives...so work is being done.

7) Leveraging current assets and the art teams' talent for an initial set of cards is not a problem.

8) Some of the existing hero deck design can be salvaged to reduce work on card screen.

9) This idea creates a completely new source of income for TE that isn't f2p and is very exciting for some players.


The list goes on but the view that "TE is busy let's not dialogue some great ideas because there is no hope anyway" seems rather bleak and kind of depressing to me. I'd rather get passion flowing and solutions and new ideas. Worst case, the game is released and we can say we did our best!

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@Satori quote:

The list goes on but the view that "TE is busy let's not dialogue some great ideas because there is no hope anyway" seems rather bleak and kind of depressing to me. I'd rather get passion flowing and solutions and new ideas. Worst case, the game is released and we can say we did our best!

Yea, burnout can be a big problem for companies, employees also need ideas to get excited about!

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