The 4,793rd thread about the Hero Deck

1. Great OP

2. On the record, I dislike the Hero Deck.

3. More hero slots offers greater variation, fun, reason to grind for gear / play and, I would suggest greater monetization opportunities as I need more gear to store all my specialised gear for heroes I will probably hardly ever use.

 

 

However, in an attempt to offer some thoughts counter to even my own sentiments:

1. In the story, there is one of each hero. Why should we have more than one of each available? Etheria called and one Huntress, one Squire, one Mage and one Monk answered the call. Not a DPS Huntress, an AB Huntress, a general builder huntress and two passive builder huntresses. [I appreciate that with the hero deck we could actually have 4 Huntresses, but the point is, in tales of old, there were a set number of heroes that ventured forth to save the kingdom, not 24, or 48 or an army of them]

This logic would mean an additional hero slot as each new hero is released though.

 

2. The argument that was advanced or countered above is that people can choose to play with only 4 heroes if they want and the rest can have more hero choices if they want. Well, could not the same be said of DU or starting mana? Each of these limit my choices as to how to defend the map. I am sure lots of players would love more DU and green mana at the start. Then, if people want, they can choose to limit themselves to less mana/DU if they want. People can, after all, beat the current content up to NM3 with 4 heroes, existing mana and DU. [Not considering NM4 as the devs have made it clear that passive builders - of which there are more to come - would be required to beat this content]

 

Have we simply been spoilt by DD1 where we could have 24 heroes including, in my case certainly, a number of fairly pointless ones that I could certainly have done without.

 

Finally, as others have said, this point does require comment from Trendy.

 

TL:DR

1. I do not like the deck and wish it gone to never return as I think it limits choice and therefore fun.

2. I think there are reasons why it could be considered an understandable game mechanic and we could learn to work within it as we do mana and DU limitations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's already at the top... i feel it needs to be bumped anyway.

would be nice to see one of the devs post here to show that they atleast give a #!@$,

haven't seen them post or share their opinions for a while now....

If they did post it would probably be "It is good to see feedback. We are actively looking into making changes while still preserving the essence of the game."

Burn the hero deck to the ground, IMO. 

If some no lifer wants to use 20 heroes all specced differently to accomplish something, who am I to deny that? Let that guy waste his life away leveling that many lol. 

If they want a "hero deck" it should be at least 8-10 characters. 5 is too little. 

I don't give two ***s about "balancing" around the hero deck right now, because you can't. You can't balance ANYTHING right now, while they are still putting builds in the game. And honestly, if they are trying to go the D3 route, it will *never* ever ever ever ever be balanced with the hero deck in mind because it'll be balanced around BUILDS.

If you support the hero deck in it's current incarnation, by all means, continue limiting yourselves. But the rest of us want some freedom in the game. If I want to make a waller squire, then a harpoon squire, then a waller squire, who gives two damns if that's my prerogative? 

@Tristaris quote:

If you support the hero deck in it's current incarnation, by all means, continue limiting yourselves. But the rest of us want some freedom in the game. If I want to make a waller squire, then a harpoon squire, then a waller squire, who gives two damns if that's my prerogative? 

I, honestly, do not feel like limiting myself. I like the bonus features from Hero Deck (only XP atm, but maybe more later on? Like, Loot chance, specific loot chance, passive bonuses, like repair speed, etc., who knows).

I have 7 lv. 50 heroes. I hate hero deck, please remove it.

@Seph quote:

@Tristaris quote:

If you support the hero deck in it's current incarnation, by all means, continue limiting yourselves. But the rest of us want some freedom in the game. If I want to make a waller squire, then a harpoon squire, then a waller squire, who gives two damns if that's my prerogative? 

I, honestly, do not feel like limiting myself. I like the bonus features from Hero Deck (only XP atm, but maybe more later on? Like, Loot chance, specific loot chance, passive bonuses, like repair speed, etc., who knows).

I agree with that. It would be pretty cool to get increased rewards (in whatever way) by playing with as few as possible. Perhaps a lock in feature, otherwise you can leave it open. The rewards would have to be worthwhile, though. 

If you can clear a map with 4 heroes you get x. And you progressively get less, the more heroes you add. I still think the hero deck should be done away with, or vastly increased in general, though.

@Seph quote:

@Tristaris quote:

If you support the hero deck in it's current incarnation, by all means, continue limiting yourselves. But the rest of us want some freedom in the game. If I want to make a waller squire, then a harpoon squire, then a waller squire, who gives two damns if that's my prerogative? 

I, honestly, do not feel like limiting myself. I like the bonus features from Hero Deck (only XP atm, but maybe more later on? Like, Loot chance, specific loot chance, passive bonuses, like repair speed, etc., who knows).

Seph I'm pretty sure you are the minority.  Who's to say they still can't give you a bonus. No one is saying you can't play with less heroes. Removing the hero deck will not prevent you or anyone else from using less heroes but it will make the game fun for what clearly is the majority.

That takes me to League of Legends. You should never balance out a game because of the "Majority". Instead, you should balance out the game based on what people find it truly useless and really powerful. Only less than 1% of all league players are pro players. Now, these pro players play championships as well as ranked games on the same balance as everyone else does. So the pro players find a way to play certain champion which is beyond powerful, but the casual player would never achieve such a level of play to use it like that.

Should they just ignore them and leave them to wreak havoc with their incredibly overpowered new strategy or do the balance team step up and do something about it, even when not being the 99% of the community?

Now I now they are not exactly the same situations, but still applies where the majority of something doesn't mean anything, when 100% of the other group disagrees. Sure those 90% of players might have only one hero, but then 100% of the people that have more complain about the hero deck. And eventually when those that have only one hero decide to create new heroes, they'll just add to the numbers of dislike of this Hero Deck system as it currently is.

Lew, I understand and agree with your general point but we have already covered in detail that this isn't a balance issue so much as it is based on other things like qol, solo equality and f2p monetization, etc.

@mmaakk quote:

I have 7 lv. 50 heroes. I hate hero deck, please remove it.

Stopped at 5 and won't level any more. I started swapping tank gear/spheres onto squire when I want to change role if others build. Giant pain in the keister! It's definitely causing fatigue and lost interest.

@Satori quote:

@mmaakk quote:

I have 7 lv. 50 heroes. I hate hero deck, please remove it.

Stopped at 5 and won't level any more. I started swapping tank gear/spheres onto squire when I want to change role if others build. Giant pain in the keister! It's definitely causing fatigue and lost interest.

I have 4 at level 50, and started a 5th.  I am currently swapping gear which is indeed a giant pain since unlike DDE where the most recently equipped gear is all placed at the end of the inventory, the current system in DD2 leaves it spread all over inventory unless you carefully move it before equipping.

Inventory management pain, plus hero deck pain = fun killer

All I can say at this point is: I still have hope!

@mmaakk quote:

All I can say at this point is: I still have hope!

That's all we can have until TE hops in and comments.

FunFact: I went 5 or so pages back and the Hero Deck hate is the only recent discussion to break into 4 digit views. Translation: something has to be said by someone sometime soon...or people will get the message and start to lose that hope. Lots of great games out and coming.

We hear you. We are actively discussing this internally to determine how the hero deck can be changed so that everyone is free to choose their own play style.

I couldn’t help myself on that last one. ;)

But in all seriousness, I’m glad you’re discussing this so passionately. There are a few points worth clarifying here.

Right now, there is a pretty split view on the Hero Deck,which you can see in this thread. There is a subset of vocal players who are very adamant that the deck be removed. Some of these players have been pretty consistent in this feedback during Early Access, a point driven home by the OP’s post here. There is another subset of vocal players who enjoy the Hero Deck, and would like to see it improved further. This led us to some of the recent changes we made, where we re-hashed the UI (moving Hero Management into the forge) and added another Deck Slot, though we aren’t done yet.

Then there is another subset of players (quite large) who don’t post on the forums. I’m not necessarily talking about the “casual” players mentioned in this thread, the one with just 1 hero and not even at max level. I’m talking about dedicated, invested Defenders who choose to not participate in the Forum community but put lots of time into the game. While we aren’t able to communicate with them as easily as the forums, we do find ways to get information from them, via surveys, metrics, and other mechanisms. In most of our information gathering throughout Early Access, the majority seem to like the Hero Deck, though it is consistently mentioned that we may want to make adjustments for solo players.

In the end, no one side has a majority here, so it’s tricky for us to find the best paths to move forward. We do believe we need to make changes, and have recently, but we’re balancing these changes with other work that needs to be done.

For what it’s worth, the Hero Deck’s major goal was to help facilitate better Co-Op gameplay. When one person can come in and do everything with every character, we find this to be mostly a negative. We also feel it adds some new elements of strategic depth in having to make choices for what Heroes you wanted to bring vs what others would bring. We do recognize that in Solo, the current implementation becomes a little more constraining, and we’ve been talking actively about how this corresponds with the new Builds we’ve been adding in, which seems to be making the situation more exaggerated.

Many of the topics discussed here, and in other threads, ARE read and talked about. Funny enough, I actually had a sidebar about the Hero Deck with Dan Haddad early last week. But like I said, the challenge is balancing this work against other work. I know many of you feel we’re no longer making big system changes now that we’ve switched to “Alpha,” but I promise you that isn’t the case. Heck, there are some MAJOR changes coming up in this next patch, not balance related, that we’ve felt are more important right now than doing another pass on the Hero Deck.

All of this said, the amount of discussion here makes me believe we probably need to touch the Hero Deck sooner than we had originally scheduled, especially in regards to tackling the solo or dual player scenarios. It may not always seem like it, but active topics like this, especially when they’re well-thought and focused, really do make a big difference on both the priority of what we work on, and how we shape those changes. So thanks for that, and please, keep it up!

@TrendyBrad quote:

We hear you. We are actively discussing this internally to determine how the hero deck can be changed so that everyone is free to choose their own play style.

Very nice zinger
 

@TrendyBrad quote:Right now, there is a pretty split view on the Hero Deck,which you can see in this thread. There is a subset of vocal players who arevery adamant that the deck be removed. Some of these players have been prettyconsistent in this feedback during Early Access, a point driven home by the OP’spost here. There is another subset of vocal players who enjoy the Hero Deck, andwould like to see it improved further. This led us to some of the recentchanges we made, where we re-hashed the UI (moving Hero Management into the forge)and added another Deck Slot, though we aren’t done yet.

Then there is another subset of players (quite large) who don’tpost on the forums. I’m not necessarily talking about the “casual” playersmentioned in this thread, the one with just 1 hero and not even at max level. I’mtalking about dedicated, invested Defenders who choose to not participate inthe Forum community but put lots of time into the game. While we aren’t able tocommunicate with them as easily as the forums, we do find ways to getinformation from them, via surveys, metrics, and other mechanisms. In most ofour information gathering throughout Early Access, the majority seem to likethe Hero Deck, though it is consistently mentioned that we may want to make adjustmentsfor solo players.

In the end, no one side has a majority here, so it’s trickyfor us to find the best paths to move forward. We do believe we need to makechanges, and have recently, but we’re balancing these changes with other workthat needs to be done.

Can we please get an influence vote then that would give a better indication. I do feel that there is far more negative fans than positive fans.

Thanks for the reply Brad. Really appreciate your comments. If you simply removed the inequity between solo and multiplayer (put everyone in the same boat), and also ensured that DPS heroes did not take up a builder slot ... that would be a HUGE step forward.

Not that more changes aren't needed ... but just those two things in the short run would extend a big olive branch to those who really are frustrated with the hero deck.

I am one of those who would like to see it gone. I am also one who is accepting to change. I play mostly solo and while I do get by fine with 4 heroes, it's just not near as fun as it could be. It's very frustrating for solo players being so limited with all of the builds coming out. It just feels like you are penalized for playing solo. I feel I can get pretty damn strategic without being forced to do so. I'm not a sheep, I can plan my own builds with trial and error. 

I also understand there are a lot of players not vocal on the forums. I played for a long time before I joined the forums. Really, I can't believe how long I've played this dang game.

[[59260,users]] ,

Thank you for posting, something. Unfortunately, you haven’t really engaged the issues we have been discussing as much as simply mentioned them. A few points for you to consider:

1) Why can’t the people who “like” the hero deck describe an actual benefit that isn’t wholly subjective or speculative in nature? Even the reasons we have heard from TE fall in this category (see #3).

2) You mentioned metrics and surveys that say people like the hero deck. How could you consider those accurate? These people haven’t played DD2 without it and since the information is simply data points haven’t articulated a substantial reason why they like it better than not having one? Many millions of people claim that they love living in America and its the best country in the world, yet have never stepped foot outside the boarder. Faulty conclusion based on misinterpreting bad data imo.

3) It seems obvious to us, and even people that like the hero deck, that your major goal has failed. Why continue? 

4) I feel this thread is hardly split. Outside of a few people that have proclaimed they like the deck with no real argument to support that preference and a trolling post here or there it is almost all hate and demand for deletion…why try to skew the reality? 

Sorry, but I don’t feel that a subset of players “liking” the hero deck means squat. If the thing is broken, will only get worse in the future, has failed to succeed in its goals and has a well articulated case against it, how is that not enough? I would bet everyone would, not like, but love 1000 free gems a day but you sure as the sun shines aren’t gonna add that to the game. 

@TrendyBrad quote:

Then there is another subset of players (quite large) who don’t post on the forums. I’m not necessarily talking about the “casual” players mentioned in this thread, the one with just 1 hero and not even at max level.

This fact that gets tossed around really bugs me. It makes me wonder why a large group of players have not even reached max level or bothered to make another hero. Personally I only have one of each hero and I only have one at 50 because I was trying to level them as a team so as I unlocked a hero deck slot I was going back and trying to catch them up. I eventually got so sick of leveling all 4 heroes I decided to focus on one just to get the bonus exp from the 50. Shortly there after I stopped playing because I was burnt out.
EDIT: Forgot to mention I was depressed thinking about how I was going to get the gold to buy those over priced ubers and get my gear leveled up to compete.

I like the hero deck. I like it because it limits what one player can bring to a fight. You can't bring a builder for blockades, traps, aa, frostfire and at the same time bring dps and maybe a tank. This forces interaction cooperation in groups to achieve maximum efficiency. Obviously this messes over soloers, and they need to work on that. The benefit of this limit will only grow more apparent as further passive combos (and further classes!) are added. One player might have a balloon huntress while another uses a blockade-huntress.

Edit: I would like to see a clearer connection between the 4-limit and gameplay. For example if you could switch characters during a wave, it'd make more sense (the limit would be even more impactful). And maybe the other characters in the hero deck would receive 10% or 20% of the experience gained by the currently played character. The hero deck is all "stick" right now, and I do think you need to think about how you can make it a bit "carrot".

@TrendyBrad quote:

Right now, there is a pretty split view on the Hero Deck,which you can see in this thread.

Group 1:  There is a subset of vocal players who are very adamant that the deck be removed. Some of these players have been pretty consistent in this feedback during Early Access, a point driven home by the OP’s post here.

Group 2:  There is another subset of vocal players who enjoy the Hero Deck, and would like to see it improved further. This led us to some of the recent changes we made, where we re-hashed the UI (moving Hero Management into the forge) and added another Deck Slot, though we aren’t done yet.

Group 3:  Then there is another subset of players (quite large) who don’t post on the forums. I’m not necessarily talking about the “casual” players mentioned in this thread, the one with just 1 hero and not even at max level.

I’m talking about dedicated, invested Defenders who choose to not participate in the Forum community but put lots of time into the game. While we aren’t able to communicate with them as easily as the forums, we do find ways to get information from them, via surveys, metrics, and other mechanisms. In most of our information gathering throughout Early Access, the majority seem to like the Hero Deck, though it is consistently mentioned that we may want to make adjustments for solo players.

All of this said, the amount of discussion here makes me believe we probably need to touch the Hero Deck sooner than we had originally scheduled, especially in regards to tackling the solo or dual player scenarios.

You lay out 3 groups in your post.

Group 1 wants the Hero Deck eliminated.  (Disclosure, I am in that group)

Group 2 is supposed to 'enjoy' the limitation.  I propose that they have learned to live with it, or perhaps it is Stockholm Syndrome.  (Although I do accept that there are some who have come to Like it and will defend it vocally.)

Group3 is likely the largest group (I do not have numbers to prove/disprove the relative numbers in each group).  This group is mostly unable to provide feedback but the feedback is inferred from metrics.  (How does a metric weigh something as abstract as 'like' when its job is to measure that which is concrete?)

Somehow this results in the opinion that "The Majority seem to like the Hero Deck".

I would submit that given the opportunity to vote on "Do you want to be limited to 4 Heroes in your Player Deck", (Yes please limit me to 4 Heroes)  (No don't limit me to 4 Heroes) a significant portion of the player base would find no value in the limitations imposed by a 4 hero player deck and would vote against the limitation.   (And if I am wrong on how people would vote, I still prefer to not be limited so [[6590,hashtags]].   This is not a Player Vs Player game thus how I choose to play it does not hurt any other players.)

I also propose that Trendy should move rapidly to monetize this opportunity and give us the opportunity to use Gems to purchase additional slots in our Hero Deck.

@TrendyBrad quote:

For what it’s worth, the Hero Deck’s major goal was to help facilitate better Co-Op gameplay. When one person can come in and do everything with every character, we find this to be mostly a negative. 

Thank you for your response.  I had assumed that the driving factor was a strategic interaction with the build system, so this was informative.

I would like to share an anecdote.  Yesterday I joined an onslaught game to grind some pet affection.  Around round 9, an trollblood ogre got stuck in the spawning portal.  The only thing that could be used to kill it was the huntress pheonix shot.  It took us 15 minutes to kill it because we were all on our builder huntresses.  I commented to my random companions that I really wished I was on my dps huntres, but I brought all builders expecting to build.  They both replied that they had done the same.

I think that multiple people cooperatively building is a fun and important aspect of leveling up your first few characters and figuring out how the game works*.  I wonder though how much people enjoy it once they get to endgame.  There's a lot of discussion and back and forth that has to happen about where towers should go, how much DU you can afford to spend in this lane versus that, on anti-air versus ground, on pure offensive towers vs. buffing towers.  It slows things down a lot and usually ends up in a sub optimal compromise.  I do it with a buddy of mine, the two of us having figured out who has better what and decided on builds, but I don't have the patience or desire to do it with randoms.  

I also think that joining a game and finding out that you can't contribute sucks.  You only brought (or only have) builders, and the other guy has better builders than you.  If the hero deck is focused at molding multiplayer interactions, then the way it fails to interact with the matchmaking system is probably a bigger problem than the deck itself.

Would love an influence vote, but don't know what it would accomplish for you since it doesn't reach the non-communicating masses.  

*max level characters joining low level content and building everything is absolutely a problem for new players and ruins their experience.  There shouldn't be any incentive for max level players to do this, but there is due to endgame experience levels.