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Rick Sanchez

Why I don't like the Hero Deck Concept for Solo Play

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Including an excellent post by Rotto on the topic.

@Rotto quote:

       Agreeing with everything here. I personally feel the current system is flawed.  Heroes are no where near robust enough, especially given the very specific archetypes they are supposed to embody.  For instance, why should I have to level AND gear a Huntress if my favorite hero is the Squire? The Huntress (just an example folks, just replace it with whatever hero you would've rather gone without) doesn't appeal to me and it feels like I'm being unduly punished for having a preference on the kind of characters I enjoy playing in a video game.  Couple that with heavy resistance lanes that completely removes any choice in the matter and you wind up with what amounts to a static (and sometimes incredibly tedious) experience.
       Item sets alone aren't enough to promote diversification. Having a handful of useful towers spread across four different heroes limits diversification. Every Hero should be provided all the tools they need to complete any map (within reason of their gear) provided they utilize those tools in a clever and efficient manner.  The way I and Rick Sanchez (OP) solve the same map should vary wildly based on what hero we favor more and then further by what towers, item sets and tactics we favor; not by if I spent the grueling amount of time to find perfect gear for four heroes to take advantage of what amounts gimmicks.




To be concise:

It kills varied styles for play, and kills leader boards for anything but multi deck builds in solo play.

The game should offer variance in style which is offered by the amazing and unique classes, not forcing a player to max each of the heroes up to compete on the boards.


What point is there to different towers, when to be the best, you level up the different heroes, pick the best single tower/trap/damage character from each, and then roll the map.


Each class should have a few viable builds to solo with (Yeah, huntress included), when attempting solo ranked boards. I know this creates more work for the Dev team, but its an important part in designing a long lasting, healthy game and gameplay.


As it stands currently, the Hero Deck system just isn't imaginative for solo play, and it undermines the idea of having fully formed classes.


Please think about this design decision, it hurts the depth and play style options available to each class and player.



@Rick Sanchez quote:

Well its just a simple mathematical observation of the number of useful abilities.


What sounds more intricate to you:

A class with only one tower to contribute to both the solo and multiplayer options, or a class that has multiple towers and abilities that can be useful to each.

The second clearly adds a lot more depth and theorycrafting to the game, as having more options per hero would give us more builds overall in the end.

I think you're confusing the idea that having one well developed class with multiple abilities somehow limits gameplay.

If each class is developed specific to its powers and unique playstyle, for example having 4 useful towers overall to get the job done, its just as advanced as having 4 different classes with only 1 useful ability.


Classes should be more than just a freeze tower, a water trap, a barricade, and a dps bot.


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Feel what your saying man. 

I however, don't feel that it's just solo. I have yet to hear a compelling case for the hero deck in coop that highlights an actual, honest to god benefit. Let alone one that clearly outweighs the negatives of the design. 

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If this game goes free2play I can see how the need to level all heroes at the same time can be very confusing to new players. There isn't any other game like it. 

I would like to concentrate on one hero and master it before starting a second one but that isn't an option. 

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Yes! I really think with as much talk about the hero deck (mostly negative) it would be higher on the priority list than "We know we want to do something with it, just not sure what". 

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@IGELmitDEAGLE quote:

If this game goes free2play I can see how the need to level all heroes at the same time can be very confusing to new players. There isn't any other game like it. 

I would like to concentrate on one hero and master it before starting a second one but that isn't an option. 

This is a very good point.  For a F2P model it'll be tough for new players to understand that they should have many many many heroes... each built for a specific purpose

They'll need a better way to introduce players to this mechanic tbh.  Something in the campaign where it forces you to make a new hero and add some elements that would make a player think he's in charge of many heroes vs getting attached to one like I assume the vast majority of players do atm

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@Pachipachio quote:


@IGELmitDEAGLE quote:

If this game goes free2play I can see how the need to level all heroes at the same time can be very confusing to new players. There isn't any other game like it. 

I would like to concentrate on one hero and master it before starting a second one but that isn't an option. 

This is a very good point.  For a F2P model it'll be tough for new players to understand that they should have many many many heroes... each built for a specific purpose

They'll need a better way to introduce players to this mechanic tbh.  Something in the campaign where it forces you to make a new hero and add some elements that would make a player think he's in charge of many heroes vs getting attached to one like I assume the vast majority of players do atm

I disagree, I got DD1 with no clue what it was but I love tower defense games. I played it solo and it only took me 30 mins to learn I could swap heroes to put different type of defenses and from that point on it was all about learning what towers went better where. 

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@Chappyy quote:

I disagree, I got DD1 with no clue what it was but I love tower defense games. I played it solo and it only took me 30 mins to learn I could swap heroes to put different type of defenses and from that point on it was all about learning what towers went better where. 

Many years of playing games taught me that there are a lot of player who will not get it. But if can talk for even the very young and somewhat stupid potential players...

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@Chappyy quote:


I disagree, I got DD1 with no clue what it was but I love tower defense games. I played it solo and it only took me 30 mins to learn I could swap heroes to put different type of defenses and from that point on it was all about learning what towers went better where. 

Well, that's worked for you.  For me.  And for many people here who bought DD1

F2P is sort of a different animal.  I mean, look at blizzard's development philosophy of hearthstone.  They wont add additional features because they want to limit the buttons players press.

Yeah, some people can handle a complicated game, nobody's saying new players to a genre can't.  But the analytics have come in and simple game elements are sort of needed


Plus, according to the metrics we already have on DD2 some astonishing % of players have only 1 hero.... so it's ALREADY a problem that players don't know or don't want to create new heroes. 

With a game that kind of requires it, devs need to do a better job in the campaign/intro for players to disassociate themselves with their hero and create more.  That's pretty clear, I think

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@Pachipachio quote:


@Chappyy quote:


I disagree, I got DD1 with no clue what it was but I love tower defense games. I played it solo and it only took me 30 mins to learn I could swap heroes to put different type of defenses and from that point on it was all about learning what towers went better where. 

Well, that's worked for you.  For me.  And for many people here who bought DD1

F2P is sort of a different animal.  I mean, look at blizzard's development philosophy of hearthstone.  They wont add additional features because they want to limit the buttons players press.

Yeah, some people can handle a complicated game, nobody's saying new players to a genre can't.  But the analytics have come in and simple game elements are sort of needed


Plus, according to the metrics we already have on DD2 some astonishing % of players have only 1 hero.... so it's ALREADY a problem that players don't know or don't want to create new heroes. 

With a game that kind of requires it, devs need to do a better job in the campaign/intro for players to disassociate themselves with their hero and create more.  That's pretty clear, I think

The one hero metric I talked about before. I think that is a side effect of the hero deck forcing you to use one hero from the start creating the idea you can do the whole game with one hero. Additionally the fact you get a bonus to exp for leveling to 50 so the players focus on leveling one hero at a time till they get to 50. Lastly the DPS hero makes it the goto play style for the first two things. The problem is they lose interest in the game so they never finish the level to 50 grind. As far as the "dumb down" the game, I hope they don't do that in this game. I don't want some "one button" game or I would still play my Atari. The beauty of F2P is if they download the game and it's to complicated or hard then they don't play it and they didn't lose money.

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@Chappyy quote:


The one hero metric I talked about before. I think that is a side effect of the hero deck forcing you to use one hero from the start creating the idea you can do the whole game with one hero. Additionally the fact you get a bonus to exp for leveling to 50 so the players focus on leveling one hero at a time till they get to 50. Lastly the DPS hero makes it the goto play style for the first two things. The problem is they lose interest in the game so they never finish the level to 50 grind. As far as the "dumb down" the game, I hope they don't do that in this game. I don't want some "one button" game or I would still play my Atari. The beauty of F2P is if they download the game and it's to complicated or hard then they don't play it and they didn't lose money.

Yeah, I agree.  I didn't mean that one button mentality should be translated into DD2, just used an example of a very successful game that took it wayyy father because things need to be easy to understand for a majority of the player base - and we want a large player base amirite


You're probably right about the hero deck being a big problem of players limiting themselves to 1 hero.  Creating two at the beginning would be a huge difference maker I think - I bet the stats then would show more people having 3+ heroes than people having 2+ now.

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@Pachipachio quote:


@IGELmitDEAGLE quote:

If this game goes free2play I can see how the need to level all heroes at the same time can be very confusing to new players. There isn't any other game like it. 

I would like to concentrate on one hero and master it before starting a second one but that isn't an option. 

This is a very good point.  For a F2P model it'll be tough for new players to understand that they should have many many many heroes... each built for a specific purpose

They'll need a better way to introduce players to this mechanic tbh.  Something in the campaign where it forces you to make a new hero and add some elements that would make a player think he's in charge of many heroes vs getting attached to one like I assume the vast majority of players do atm

I think Trendy has heard what they needed to hear about the Hero Deck and how a majority of us dislike it.  This Hero Deck business has been a sore to deal with but the only revision that they've done is add more available slots for a purchase price.

I assume that they want to keep it the way it is, despite all the feed back they've gotten, is to retain people by having them level all the characters to max.  I mean, if you think about it, it'll take a while.  Keep adding in new characters with only 1 useful tower each and you've got a recipe for tens if not hundred(s) of hours of play.   If a player isn't forced to level all heroes to max in order to be viable, then perhaps they fear their player base will teeter off.  It's all for retention IMO.   Another example of this are Daily and Monthly Missions and Build Passives on gear.  The grind is what Trendy wants, but I think it's doing much more harm than good.  It'll definitely be confusing to new players and I think that the hill to victory will be too steep for the casual player.   


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@Trueday2001 quote:

 I mean, if you think about it, it'll take a while.  Keep adding in new characters with only 1 useful tower each and you've got a recipe for tens if not hundred(s) of hours of play.   If a player isn't forced to level all heroes to max in order to be viable, then perhaps they fear their player base will teeter off.  It's all for retention IMO.  

Yet, we all know that is actually a really poor approach to take for the game. People are going to see that for what it is, or have seen it for what it is.

I want a game with balanced classes, where 1 is enough to solo and has meaningful abilities so that you can enjoy its form of play, as well as being well rounded and have more than 1 tower per group play to be considered useful in a group.


We need to expect more out of our classes, not less.


The big picture is that doing so doesn't kill the longevity of the game, it increases it by making a game with worthwhile, exciting, and rememberable classes.


People aren't going to quit just because they don't like a class, or don't want to play their class anymore. Like any other game with multiple classes, people will have alts, or secondary characters, or switch to new mains.


Every job should have abilities that are useful and not have the illusion of being a class with just one useful ability. If this goes on, we're not looking at a game, we're looking at a gimmick.


If the hero deck doesn't go, I promise you, you're going to be looking at a very small player base willing to put in the hours to max everything, just to be able to solo a map. There are far, far, far fewer of those people who will accept the gimmick for what it is, rather than the greater majority of people who are looking for a full fledged, well designed, and quality game they can play over the long term.


P.S.


I've seen a lot of complaints about multiplayer with Hero decks, where one person has all the useful classes geared and leveled, and then the rest of the team either AFK's or rolls damage.

That's not a good multiple tower defense game, by any means.

At this point, it would be a better game if it was designed around letting people play one class at a time (while switching in main menu), and developing each class so they have multiple aspects to offer to a team, AND can solo if they choose to.

We need well developed, well rounded classes, not gimmicks.

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@Trueday2001 quote:

I assume that they want to keep it the way it is, despite all the feed back they've gotten, is to retain people by having them level all the characters to max.  I mean, if you think about it, it'll take a while. 

Yeah, but there's one fundamental flaw with this argument.

Leveling alts suck.

Even with the XP boost, it still is one of the most un-fun experiences I've ever had playing a game. As soon as someone realizes the amount of work that's going to take they're going to leave. A mechanic that increases longevity does jack squat if the longevity consists of utter boredom.

If I wanted to do a chore and be bored, I'd get out of my chair and clean my house. I don't want to be doing chores while playing games, but DD2 follows the concept of chores almost perfectly.

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@gigazelle quote:


@Trueday2001 quote:

I assume that they want to keep it the way it is, despite all the feed back they've gotten, is to retain people by having them level all the characters to max.  I mean, if you think about it, it'll take a while. 

Yeah, but there's one fundamental flaw with this argument.

Leveling alts suck.

Even with the XP boost, it still is one of the most un-fun experiences I've ever had playing a game. As soon as someone realizes the amount of work that's going to take they're going to leave. A mechanic that increases longevity does jack squat if the longevity consists of utter boredom.

If I wanted to do a chore and be bored, I'd get out of my chair and clean my house. I don't want to be doing chores while playing games, but DD2 follows the concept of chores almost perfectly.

I can't agree more. I wouldn't mind it as much if I could pull an alt in, through an end game map, and leech some XP and power level alts, much like I could in DD1, but I can't do that here. That and the amount of XP required to level alts should be substantially less for the next time around. I'm not sure what direction they should go with alts, and how long it should take to level them, but sadly it does feel like a chore. Leveling my alts this last time was just stupidly painful. Would build an onslaught map and just afk and G occasionally so I wouldn't have to deal with it.

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@gigazelle quote:


@Trueday2001 quote:

I assume that they want to keep it the way it is, despite all the feed back they've gotten, is to retain people by having them level all the characters to max.  I mean, if you think about it, it'll take a while. 

Yeah, but there's one fundamental flaw with this argument.

Leveling alts suck.

Even with the XP boost, it still is one of the most un-fun experiences I've ever had playing a game. As soon as someone realizes the amount of work that's going to take they're going to leave. A mechanic that increases longevity does jack squat if the longevity consists of utter boredom.

If I wanted to do a chore and be bored, I'd get out of my chair and clean my house. I don't want to be doing chores while playing games, but DD2 follows the concept of chores almost perfectly.

Nail and Head come to mind. I don't mind leveling alts as long as the game play is fun but right now it's a chore because leveling period is not fun.

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@Chappyy quote:

Nail and Head come to mind. I don't mind leveling alts as long as the game play is fun but right now it's a chore because leveling period is not fun.

Honestly, if there was things I could do while leveling, I wouldn't find it too bad to be honest, like if there was a goal or something to accomplish other than "ugh I have to level this character to max."

If there were maps I could play and get unique items through, or work towards a goal, for lack of a better term right now, it would be more enticing. For instance, if costume or pet XP was doubled or tripled while leveling alts, I wouldn't be nearly as bothered, and would actually do it for the sake of doing it.

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1 hero maps would be not fun for end game stuff...if thats what ur saying


edit: god I have so many posts


Forgot how hard I use to go on DD1.

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@gigazelle quote:


@Trueday2001 quote:

I assume that they want to keep it the way it is, despite all the feed back they've gotten, is to retain people by having them level all the characters to max.  I mean, if you think about it, it'll take a while. 

Yeah, but there's one fundamental flaw with this argument.

Leveling alts suck.

Even with the XP boost, it still is one of the most un-fun experiences I've ever had playing a game. As soon as someone realizes the amount of work that's going to take they're going to leave. A mechanic that increases longevity does jack squat if the longevity consists of utter boredom.

If I wanted to do a chore and be bored, I'd get out of my chair and clean my house. I don't want to be doing chores while playing games, but DD2 follows the concept of chores almost perfectly.

You're 100% correct, leveling alts sucks very very much, but do you think it's in Trendy's best interest so far today to have a player not level all the characters to be able to solo?  They want as many ppl to play their game and to keep playing it, to solo or not.  I dunno... this is a very questionable tactic that's not going to last.  No one likes meaningless tedious chores.  This hero deck should of been revised/revoved when Pets were introduced.

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You know, the worst part is, wanting a reason to keep playing but not having one. I have nm3 capable hero deck with a geared dps 5th hero I can't bring. I just feel done, like the game is over, I beat it if you will. 

In DD1 we had more heroes, a reason to specialize heroes, alternate gender heroes, dps based heroes, repair based heroes, etc. And I could bring all of them jump in a game and find a reason to level another role because I saw some creative happening I couldn't imagine before.

Now we have this forced meta through build passives and hero deck limitation.

I just don't get it. Why take some of the most amazing parts of DD1 and get rid of them in favor of designs that make the game less fun and more limited? 

Ugh, disappointed.

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NLe quote:

1 hero maps would be not fun for end game stuff...if thats what ur saying


edit: god I have so many posts


Forgot how hard I use to go on DD1.


Then that is precisely the problem (though I don't agree with your sentiment). Each hero alone SHOULD be fun. Not rely on other heroes to get the job done. Each hero should be designed to be unique and fun to play by their own merit alone.

If you can't have fun playing one class, and you need to play MULTIPLE classes to get any kind of "fun", out of high level maps, as well as clear them, then there is something drastically wrong with the game.

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@Rick Sanchez quote:
NLe quote:

1 hero maps would be not fun for end game stuff...if thats what ur saying


edit: god I have so many posts


Forgot how hard I use to go on DD1.


Then that is precisely the problem (though I don't agree with your sentiment). One hero maps SHOULD be fun, not because you can spam heroes, but because heroes should be well rounded enough to be fun playing.

If you can't have fun playing one class, and you need to play MULTIPLE classes to get any kind of "fun", out of high level maps, as well as clear them, then there is something drastically wrong with the game.

Have to disagree. What makes the game fun to me is having to look at what heroes I have and figure out what towers I can use to best beat it. If this game was one hero only I would never play it. If every hero can beat all the content solo then that means the game has no depth of thinking, puzzle solving.

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@Chappyy quote:


@Rick Sanchez quote:
NLe quote:

1 hero maps would be not fun for end game stuff...if thats what ur saying


edit: god I have so many posts


Forgot how hard I use to go on DD1.


Then that is precisely the problem (though I don't agree with your sentiment). One hero maps SHOULD be fun, not because you can spam heroes, but because heroes should be well rounded enough to be fun playing.

If you can't have fun playing one class, and you need to play MULTIPLE classes to get any kind of "fun", out of high level maps, as well as clear them, then there is something drastically wrong with the game.

Have to disagree. What makes the game fun to me is having to look at what heroes I have and figure out what towers I can use to best beat it. If this game was one hero only I would never play it. If every hero can beat all the content solo then that means the game has no depth of thinking, puzzle solving.

Agreed

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@Chappyy quote:


@Rick Sanchez quote:
NLe quote:

1 hero maps would be not fun for end game stuff...if thats what ur saying


edit: god I have so many posts


Forgot how hard I use to go on DD1.


Then that is precisely the problem (though I don't agree with your sentiment). One hero maps SHOULD be fun, not because you can spam heroes, but because heroes should be well rounded enough to be fun playing.

If you can't have fun playing one class, and you need to play MULTIPLE classes to get any kind of "fun", out of high level maps, as well as clear them, then there is something drastically wrong with the game.

Have to disagree. What makes the game fun to me is having to look at what heroes I have and figure out what towers I can use to best beat it. If this game was one hero only I would never play it. If every hero can beat all the content solo then that means the game has no depth of thinking, puzzle solving.


On the contrary, it actually involves a much higher development time and intricate design detail to create independent classes able to pull off solo play. Additionally, why should other's be forced to play classes they have no interest in just to be viable.

By making each class have a specific tower or ability that is only important to the overall scheme, not only do you water down the game by making that the only viable top build, you water down mechanics.

The single useful tower/ability per class does basically what you're claiming would happen if solo classes were fully developed and functional in their own unique way.

Having strong classes that are well developed doesn't make the game watered down, it makes it more advanced, and it brings that added layer of design to multiplayer games, giving us a much greater option to theorycraft and build into a variety of different things.

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