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BRiTTEN

Main problem with this game... being allowed to play it

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so i don't usually post anything like this for any game really, ill just play it then if something like this occurs just leave the game to rot in a ditch. but i actually really like this game so i think ill give it a chance and see what other people think of the situation.

so lets start from the beginning, im leveling a huntress and i like to build.. when im allowed to, this is my only character at the moment as i havnt put hundreds of hours into the game. so i am level 42, i queue up for a random map on hard free play most of the time so i can just get some experience to finally hit the level cap. my main problem with this is when i get into a game, i join and so do a few other people. to then just to be told "giff mana no build" this guy then puts all his walls up from his first character then continues to jump on over to his other level 50 character to then build the towers, were all fine and set and then we clear the first wave.
first things first i don't want to join every game to be carried by some level 50 on every character guy just because he gets more xp in party, if you want to just build everything and make other players just watch you for 20 mins... just play solo?! So this continues on and the first wave is cleared and then the same old "giff mana, no build" WHY MAKE EVERYONE JUST WATCH A GUY PLAY THE GAME FOR THEM?! ITS BORING... really killing the game for me right now.

also if you don't comply with the giff mana rules you just get kicked for being toxic and wanting to play a tower defense game by actually wanting to build towers..

what do you all think of this?


rant over.


TLDR : one level 50 guy does all the building you just have to sit and watch? whats the deal?

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Id tell you to play solo or find a group of friends to play with and work out builds. Unless you have better gear (ie better towers) why would you want to build in a public match?

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@Blixer quote:

Id tell you to play solo or find a group of friends to play with and work out builds. Unless you have better gear (ie better towers) why would you want to build in a public match?

i see what your saying, but i want to join a public match to be able to play with people and maybe find some friends to play with, why should anyone join a public match when theres one guy with every character at level 50 and he just hops onto them and builds towers for you, just really takes the fun out of the game and you just end up sitting doing nothing, my problem with having one huntress at 42 is that i cant just hop onto a solo game and clear the maps easily without any walls. its just boring getting carried by level 50 people. im sure dd1 you couldnt change character on the map? which because of that, it didnt have this issue, or atleast i didnt come across it

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I often have the opposite problem.  I have five level 50 characters.  If I join a non NM game (to work on a quest, or get quick pet food, or whatever), people will insist that I build.  I've arrived to see builds already completed, and when they see a level 50 squire (my 5th character is a DPS squire), they start selling barricades so I can rebuild them.  Without even asking me.

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@Blixer quote:

Id tell you to play solo or find a group of friends to play with and work out builds. Unless you have better gear (ie better towers) why would you want to build in a public match?

agreed.  why wouldn't you want the strongest towers set up?  building is a privilege, not a right, in a public game.   

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@Andurian quote:

I often have the opposite problem.  I have five level 50 characters.  If I join a non NM game (to work on a quest, or get quick pet food, or whatever), people will insist that I build.  I've arrived to see builds already completed, and when they see a level 50 squire (my 5th character is a DPS squire), they start selling barricades so I can rebuild them.  Without even asking me.

wow your a a lucky guy. guess ive hit a bad streak... i dunno, id just rather be considered to place something rather than told to just afk so they can get more xp for their benefit

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The matchmaking really could be improved to match people with iPWR close to each other and have a setting for whether you want to build or dps or whatever.


@BRiTTEN quote:

my problem with having one huntress at 42 is that i cant just hop onto a solo game and clear the maps easily without any walls

I made it pretty far with just huntress, though not quite to level 42.  That was in the early 5.x though, so I don't know how the balance has changed since then.  Have you tried using poison dart towers as walls?

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@tdb quote:

The matchmaking really could be improved to match people with iPWR close to each other and have a setting for whether you want to build or dps or whatever.


@BRiTTEN quote:

my problem with having one huntress at 42 is that i cant just hop onto a solo game and clear the maps easily without any walls

I made it pretty far with just huntress, though not quite to level 42.  That was in the early 5.x though, so I don't know how the balance has changed since then.  Have you tried using poison dart towers as walls?

i cant say i have but it sounds like good advice, ill have to give that a shot i guess ^^

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@BRiTTEN quote:

i cant say i have but it sounds like good advice, ill have to give that a shot i guess ^^

They are surprisingly good.  No match to proper blockades of course, but they have the advantage that ranged enemies won't take an interest in them until they're very close.  Plus they can do pretty awesome damage to single high-health targets.

Back when I only had a huntress, free play hard was the breaking point where I had to make a squire.  It sounds like you're past that point already, but there's been a lot of rebalancing since those days so it could be easier now.  And if you've gotten some gear from public games, that makes it easier as well.

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@tdb quote:


@BRiTTEN quote:

i cant say i have but it sounds like good advice, ill have to give that a shot i guess ^^

They are surprisingly good.  No match to proper blockades of course, but they have the advantage that ranged enemies won't take an interest in them until they're very close.  Plus they can do pretty awesome damage to single high-health targets.

Back when I only had a huntress, free play hard was the breaking point where I had to make a squire.  It sounds like you're past that point already, but there's been a lot of rebalancing since those days so it could be easier now.  And if you've gotten some gear from public games, that makes it easier as well.

thanks for the tips, and i really appreciate everyones views on this too, nice to see quite an active community on the forums :) 

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Some people have complex mental issues.

There are the "Look at me aren't I a DD2 God" types who live to be lavished with praise.

Also the "Please do everything for me I want to be a baby all my life"

If you are lucky there are the "Lets just play the game and work as a team"

If you aren't in End game NMx then you have an equal right to build what you like. In NM it is just sensible to use the best towers in the team be they one guy or a mix.

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This is why we need better dps on heroes. 

I just watched the Weekly Defense on twitch where someone said that what makes Dungeon Defenders fun is building towers and watching them wreck everything without doing much other than repairing. But this is supposed to be a free2play multiplayer game. People want to join public matches and still have fun. No one wants to be the repair bot for someone else. 

So what is the only thing you can do other than building towers? Right! Be a hero and kill stuff! 

But right now joining a game just results in a lower chance of winning because you just can't contribute enough to make up for the harder difficulty. 

At least that is my experience from NM2.

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@IGELmitDEAGLE quote:

This is why we need better dps on heroes. 

I just watched the Weekly Defense on twitch where someone said that what makes Dungeon Defenders fun is building towers and watching them wreck everything without doing much other than repairing. But this is supposed to be a free2play multiplayer game. People want to join public matches and still have fun. No one wants to be the repair bot for someone else. 

So what is the only thing you can do other than building towers? Right! Be a hero and kill stuff! 

But right now joining a game just results in a lower chance of winning because you just can't contribute enough to make up for the harder difficulty. 

At least that is my experience from NM2.

THIS!  

I'm sure they're working on new weapon types at the moment though, heard about homing missiles and multi shot weapons ect, just for now its soon*tm

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I imagine this happens a lot more then it should simply because people have to grind free play & normal onslaught to lvl their characters & they have probably gotten fed up with people building horrid towers in comparison to theirs sometimes loosing the match due to it.

So until trendy fixes the whole experience problem with people lvling multiple characters you can expect to see this very often where people lvl their characters. If it happens in other areas then the person in simply being a ass.

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Topler nailed it.  These people are tired of watching games get lost because people dont understand how to build, or have poor tower stats.  While this is a group game think of it like D&D, you dont expect the mage to get up there and melee a dragon.  Everyone has a roll to play, sometimes that roll is only going to be support, or leech.  Unlike DD1 we dont have named lobbies we can search for. so the level 50 that is with you might have been wanting to set up a leech game while he levels alts and you just happened into it.  Until we can make our own named lobbies, or set some kind of selections up for whom we want to be paired with, Random people with different ideas of whats going to happen will keep getting thrown together.


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On the other hand, in D&D you don't put the level 5 mage with the group of level 15 adventurers that are going to hunt the dragon.  That would only result in everyone becoming frustrated.  You run separate level 15 and level 5 campaigns instead.

It should be the same here: a new player on their first level 30 character in iPWR 100 gear shouldn't be grouped up with level 50s in iPWR 400 gear who are trying to powerlevel alts or farm pet food or whatever.  I shouldn't be that difficult to match players with similar iPWR across their deck.  At the moment the overall number of players might be a bottleneck though.

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@tdb quote:

On the other hand, in D&D you don't put the level 5 mage with the group of level 15 adventurers that are going to hunt the dragon.  That would only result in everyone becoming frustrated.  You run separate level 15 and level 5 campaigns instead.

It should be the same here: a new player on their first level 30 character in iPWR 100 gear shouldn't be grouped up with level 50s in iPWR 400 gear who are trying to powerlevel alts or farm pet food or whatever.  I shouldn't be that difficult to match players with similar iPWR across their deck.  At the moment the overall number of players might be a bottleneck though.

And that is why i said we need to be able to flag our games or name our lobbies.  And the number of players has always been an issue..unless there was a clear cut "Best" map for farming (either exp or items) the people have always been to spread out.  While steamcharts shows the average number of players  has gone up, the high point is always about the same.  Meaning people are just playing for longer periods because of the monthly grind.

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I agree with the OP on this issue to a point.  If I drop down to level alt characters in a pub game I should not feel it is my right to boss everyone around.  One of the reasons I don't play a lot of public games are tower comparison idiots.  

I've had people join a game in progress and want to change towers out.  Not bad towers or under powered towers, just towers that don't look as good as their towers.  Of course, they can't see the full stats of the towers so they may be completely wrong, but they need to express their superiority.

I usually let the newer players fail or succeed and then offer to build if they are having issues.  You don't need level i400+ walls in Free Play Hard games.  Upcoming players need to build too.   I have had better players build and I have had them ride in my slightly less awesome build.  

That said, I don't like splitting build responsibilities in a public game.  It's rare when coordination is easy and some people over build a single lane or just have bad ideas.  I often split builds with friends in the game.  We know each other strengths and weaknesses.

I think the bigger issue is being polite in game.  Not that I always am, because I have told people off for coming into a game and offering to build after I just finished, but I try ;-)


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One of the biggest problem I feel is joining a game where there's 2-3 people sitting around doing nothing. They are either complete dps build or they say their defenses are awful and waiting around for someone to build. Hence why I ended up having to level and gear 4 defense heroes. Most don't even acknowledge me if I suggest to work together and put down defenses together. 

It's either GIFF MANA and build yourself, or play solo, or have friends that play together 

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i absolutely feel the pain on both parties.

Grinding is a tedious and frustrating job.  But people just want to play the game and enjoy it.

i really love how you can really focus on either walling towering damaging or tanking(tho i have no idea how well that works in endgame) but being able to switch roles with a complete set of items and stuff i think was a terible design choice. 

it makes single player too easy and multiplayer frustrating. if people have no defined role confusion is inevitable and apparently balancing has become a *** - *sarcasm on*Oh who would have thought? *sarcasm off*

i really cant stress it enough. either go with a class system, give each class a meaningfull role and have people move within the boundaries of that class or drop the classes and have people create their own custom builder. It's not like that hasnt happened before in some other game and i think it wasnt a problem at all... many actually.

first option would probably result in a very static meta, but people would at leats not be confused or have wrong expectations.

2nd option will open the gates to heaven and make this company billions. Cause people are creative given the tools and find their own incentive to keep on playing given the option to be creative ! whether your an offensive or defensive type builder or just want to pack a full set of skills and shoot stuff.. either combination of people could be balanced to work together. even when theres  4 defensive builders, they could work together to build a bulwark and slowly kill off their foes.
It's a challange and it would be fun and this has become a wall of text I'm sorry I'll stop now - such a bad habbit of mine.

But I'm always so full of ideas q.q

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I'm glad the community is talking about this, because we've been discussing it too!

To be honest, a solution here is still a  bit off, but we've been discussing quite a bit "around the water cooler," so to speak. We believe the problem here centers around not being able to influence the type of role you want to play before being matchmade with others players.

So for example, say you want to be a builder, or say you want to play DPS and be carried by other builders. There is no way to say "this is the role I'd like to play," and then be matched with people who select complementary roles.

In some MMOs, like WoW, you can select the type of role you'd like to play before matchmaking into group content, like wanting to be a healer, or DPS, or tank. This is especially important when certain classes can play multiple functions (like the difference between a Healing Priest and a Shadow Priest), and directly related to what you're talking about.

We're not sure the specifics on how we'll tackle this problem quite yet, but we agree there is a lot of room for improvement in the Quickmatch system to help support players finding good matches for what they want to do. Expect to hear more about this in the future from us, and keep discussing! :) 

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@TrendyBrad quote:

I'm glad the community is talking about this, because we've been discussing it too!

To be honest, a solution here is still a  bit off, but we've been discussing quite a bit "around the water cooler," so to speak. We believe the problem here centers around not being able to influence the type of role you want to play before being matchmade with others players.

So for example, say you want to be a builder, or say you want to play DPS and be carried by other builders. There is no way to say "this is the role I'd like to play," and then be matched with people who select complementary roles.

In some MMOs, like WoW, you can select the type of role you'd like to play before matchmaking into group content, like wanting to be a healer, or DPS, or tank. This is especially important when certain classes can play multiple functions (like the difference between a Healing Priest and a Shadow Priest), and directly related to what you're talking about.

We're not sure the specifics on how we'll tackle this problem quite yet, but we agree there is a lot of room for improvement in the Quickmatch system to help support players finding good matches for what they want to do. Expect to hear more about this in the future from us, and keep discussing! :) 

it's like a sight for a sore eyes when i see you guys reply to threads. can you also check THIS thread and reply there too? just to see how some of old fans feel about DD2? thank you

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@TrendyBrad quote:

I'm glad the community is talking about this, because we've been discussing it too!

To be honest, a solution here is still a  bit off, but we've been discussing quite a bit "around the water cooler," so to speak. We believe the problem here centers around not being able to influence the type of role you want to play before being matchmade with others players.

So for example, say you want to be a builder, or say you want to play DPS and be carried by other builders. There is no way to say "this is the role I'd like to play," and then be matched with people who select complementary roles.

In some MMOs, like WoW, you can select the type of role you'd like to play before matchmaking into group content, like wanting to be a healer, or DPS, or tank. This is especially important when certain classes can play multiple functions (like the difference between a Healing Priest and a Shadow Priest), and directly related to what you're talking about.

We're not sure the specifics on how we'll tackle this problem quite yet, but we agree there is a lot of room for improvement in the Quickmatch system to help support players finding good matches for what they want to do. Expect to hear more about this in the future from us, and keep discussing! :) 

I asked a question about implementing a party matching system last Dev Stream ([[6348,hashtags]]) and you gave me a great answer. You said basically what you said here, that if/when implemented, it would allow you to choose your role and then search for a match.

I wish you guys all the best in tackling this challenge and if there is anything we (the community) can do to help, please let us know :D

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I think the role system is a decent idea... IF more support comes about to help DPS heroes... be more viable. I would like to feel like being a DPS hero about as geared as a defense/walling hero held at least some kind of similar power level. Hell even feeling half as useful as a builder would be a great improvement.

As for the actual problem at hand... Well people are always going to bring their better builders in to make defenses. That was actually the way it was in DD1 but there was a debuff added to towers if the hero who built the defenses was no longer present (I think it was like 30%?). 

The solution I see is to make areas that are more meant for people who hit max already to level up in. Hell everything end game gives less experience encouraging players to go grind in earlier difficulties. 

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TrendyBrad

I think the matchmaking should go roughly like this:

A player joining an open game is given a handful of options:

1) Builder;
2) Tank;
3) DPS;
4) Support (that would boost, repair defenses (repair passives), heal allies (monk serenity) and such).

When a playerbase is large enough, the system has to check the player's passives for the picked role: to prevent trolls from joining a game (it could be multiple passives, but one of them should fit his chosen role). Then, he has to pick a map. The system looks for an active map for up to 10 minutes with an option to cancel a search at any given time. If a system finds a match, a player joins a party. If some of the criteria is missing (say, a builder wants to fill a DPS role), the system searches for a better fit. If found, a player is put into the queue again. Else, a player is accepted. This calls for another set of rules:

A Player creating an open game is given a handful of options:

1) Roles he is expecting from other players that are going to join him;
2)
Map;
3) Type;
4) Difficulty.

Game starts as usual, with usual waiting times for other players, etc. (could be tweaked in the future, it is up to you guys and people's feedback).

EDIT: game should accept ill-matched people, because people start open games to play with people, not solo. So if a match was not found, you should at least be able to fulfill your primary goal: play with other people.

Cheers!
Seph

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