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Sombrero

Couple of suggestions of new defenses, specs and builds.

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Hello everyone,

Sorry for not posting all the ideas in the different sub-topics but I think the whole bunch of ideas make more sense as a whole and not as seperate ideas so I felt I had to make a new sub-topic just for it.

So what is the idea behind of all this ?

Well the current meta is all about 4 heroes having 3 abilities and 4 defences. The idea is not too bad but I think it's rather limited as it is. That being said here are the suggestions to make the game a much more enjoyable experience (in my humble opinion) :

  1. Tweaking the healing "ability" into an automatic recovery system allowing a 4th spell
  2. Removing the uber system and instead having a choice of alternate defenses
  3. Choosing defences (and abilities?) among a few more
  4. Bunch of new defences ideas
  5. Please bring back color customization

1) Changing the healing ability

As you all know the 4th ability of all heroes is the same and allows you to heal outside of battle as long as you don't move or do anything when you channel the ability. So why is it even an ability ? Can't it be simply removed as an ability but instead being an automatic thing which happens on its own if you don't move for a second after not fighting for at least 3 seconds ? And it would be canceled after any action being done, that way the fights would be much smoother and feel less rigid and also allow a 4th brand new ability slot !


2) No more ubers, but alternate defences/abilities !

Simple idea : good consequences. Just remove the ubers entirely from the game but instead make a system where each defence and ability eventuall have alternate versions. The best example being the flame tower of the mage which could turn into a flamethrowers. Both are great but serves different purpose. The choice between the two would have to be done in the tavern before the map starts and the choice is then locked for entirety of the map as every other choice of defence/ability. BUT two alternate versions cannot be brought together, so you can have only the flame spitter or the flame thrower at once on a single character.


3) Choosing defences among a list

An other very simple idea. Each hero would have about 6 to 8 defences (and abilities?) to choose from and therefore can make choices to fits its gameplay. You want your apprentice to build only offensive structures ? Remove the barrier and put a new electric tower instead ! You want the very same apprentice to be a very defensive builder ? Remove that flame tower and put a brand new defensive oriented defence (such as stunning tower for example). You noticed the "?" when I speak about abilities just because of how realistic it is for the devs to create so much new content, I don't think tons of abilities are required compares to defences but that's only my opinion, only alternate versions of abilities would be enough in my opinion.


4) New ideas of defences :

Apprentice

Replacing the Arcane Barrier (or being an alternate version) :
The Zephyr Barrier
The Zephyr Barrier serves the wind element to complete the apprentice range of magics. Instead of doing damages when it gets damages the Zephyr just stacks energy for each hits recieved up to a point it blows a massive gust of wind to push back all monsters close to the Barrier making them fly away and eventually fall in the abyss if the Barriers is placed close enough to the void. Instead of being a % of health lost or something I thought of an internal cooldown instead. The Zephyr blows away on the first hit and then takes time to recharge (a very long time, something like a minute without any upgrade or anything) BUT that cooldown is lowered by a second for each hit the Barrier recieves making it happens more often as the ennemies are gathering in front of it. Upgrades would include cooldown reduction, and eventually tweaks to the cooldown system as special passives. This barrier would take into account the range of hit to blow more ennemies away (with range being upgraded it blows at a longer range basically) and also the defence power if possible to blow monsters farther away (even though I doubt it would be possible to do so).
In a few words it would give the Apprentice a new Barrier which would serve a very unique purpose, different than the Squire's barricade. The Zephyr Barrier can't have too much health though for obvious balance reasons. (Could keep the current Arcane health stats)
Defence unit cost : 40

The brand new electric defence :
The Lightning Pole
It is not a clone of DD1's Apprentice lighting tower but a brand new kind. It is actually a cheap Pole that you place planted in the ground which zaps any ennemy coming close. The range is short to medium - slightly smaller than the Monk's auras basically). It doesn't do a lot of damage and attack only one target at a time but its unique properties makes it very useful. Indeed the Lighting Pole shoots an extra bolt of thunder to each other Lightning Pole nearby "charging" it up. All charged poles stacks energy to give extra damage the next time they target a monster. First charge gives a +10% damage, second a +20% damage boost, third one gives 30% and the fourth and last gives 40% making a bonus of 100% of damage if the Pole is charged four times before attacking again. So as you understand the charges are stackable but all disappear with the next attack. The Pole also have a significantly reduced threat production (such as the poison dart tower) to help building it all around the lanes. The idea is to plants the Poles in a fashion to boost each others Poles while they teard down ennemies. For example if you place them in a circle fashion (5 being a good number since the maximum charges is 4) anytime a monster comes at range it can takes up to 5 bolts of thunders all charged to virtually double damage (depending on previous hits order basically). But you can also set your Poles in a line fashion so the first Poles charge the last on the lane which attack only the toughest ennemies who survived the first defences of the lane allowing guaranteed double damage thunder bolts. It is also a defence suited to protect several nearby lane (such as the flamethrower) thanks to its unique properties.
Defence unit cost : 20

Monk

The brand new :
Mana aura
This aura brings new simple but strategic opportunities. It gives a mana regeneration for all allies inside the aura and at the same disable all special abilities from monsters located in the auras (such as healing from the mages, skeletons summoning, crystal ennemies burrowing in the ground etc). It sounds over-powered but its high defence cost makes it very expensive if placed on every single lane making the other defences less numerous, it is therefore necessary to use both aspects from the aura (mana boost + disabling) to use all the potential of this brand new purple aura.
Defence unit cost : 50

Squire

The brand new :
Oil bucket
A supportive defence built from a thin wooden stick with a bucket on top which falls on monsters coming close to it (melee range essentially). It then covers ennemies with black oil making them slower and sensitive to fire. This defence gives a much needed supportive option for the squire other than simply being a barricade builder (outside of the offensive options I mean) and the weird harpoon oil sphere. If possible defence power would makes the debuff last longer, range does not affect this tower but attack speed does affect the recharging time (being about 7 second to begin with).
Defence unit cost : 40

Huntress

The brand new
Bee hive
The huntress gets some defensive option with the bee hive. It is a barricade kind of defence but rather unique. It is not shaped as a wall but rather a rounded defence (since it's a bee hive). The difference with all the others barricades and barriers is that it is not really meant to stop ennemies but rather distracting them. Every time the bee hive is attacked a swarm of bees is launched at the ennemy which attacked it including ranged ennemies. The swarm damages all the ennemis on its path for a small amount of damage and then sticks to the target (the ennemy who attacked the hive) making it stunned for a second and suffering significant  poison damages over time (5 seconds duration). The bee hive is not bulky at all and can't survive on its own on a lane. It is rather intended to be hidden on the sides of the lanes to distract ranged ennemies and lurk them away from your other defences. It requires attention because of its low health. Damage can be increased significantly with defence power, defence attack rate affects cooldown for a new swarm to be launched (the standard cooldown needs to be fairly low though, something like 2 seconds). Range doesn't affect it since it is launched at any distance as long as the ennemy damaged it.
Possible passives would make bees or the hive itself being different. Such as burning, freezing bees, a hive doing aoe damage instead of ranged shot etc.
Defence unit cost : 30



5) Please just bring back color customization from Dungeon Defenders 1

All in the title, just please ! Too lame to be clones, and would give a new kind of chests to open (as long as keys are less tedious to get) being color chest to unlock a new dye.


That's all my ideas, please feel free to give constructive feedback and comments. And I hope to see some of my ideas eventually in game, mainly to give more tactical options to players !

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Quite the well written wall of text, beautiful formating!
edit: Had the time to read all the things. Now to some feedback:

1. Making heal somewhat automatic on standby, then adding a new skill to the 4th slot...
Sounds awesome. Really nice idea.

2. removing Ubers, giving players the choice between tower versions on the tavern...
I disagree. Ubers and similar mechanics are there to "back end" content (push tower versions, crazy strategies and the such into endgame - Nightmare and above); it's beyond me to say if it's the best course of action, but it's how the devs seem to wish to handle things for now. The access method to said mechanics varies (Gold, Wyvern tokens, drops... they decided against sheer "leveling up" and point attribution for now). Giving the versions for free would go against that. Also, the lanes' mods (resistances, traits, sub bosses) are rolled randomly on map creation, so there's no way to know beforehand which tower would be better before entering the map. It could work if the system didn't lock the different tower versions on the map, I guess.

3. Choosing defences from a list...
In a sense, it already works like that (with Ubers, you can de-equip the sphere and build the normal tower version); dunno if it is currently working as intended (if Ubers are supposed to replace the tower for good or if we are indeed supposed to be able to mix versions of the same defenses), but the heroes won't really need a ton of towers from the start if the devs introduce alternative versions and an easier way to select between said versions on placement, so points 2 and 3 of your suggestions could be adapted to work with the current system while keeping their vision of gated (endgame) content.

4. New defense ideas...
Awesome. The App's Lightning Pole would clash with the Monk's Lightning Strike Aura, and the Mana Aura would clash with a certain Pet Ability, but even those are excellent ideas; Oil Bucket currently exists as the Oily Harpoon but your version is quite better, and the Bee hive is the best of all of 'em.

5. Color customization...
As long as not every apprentice becomes a Golden Saint (Saint Seiya), then quite the cool idea.

10/10, would read your wall of text again.

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@Jeshua quote:

Quite the well written wall of text, beautiful formating!
"Me needs moar times" to read it leisurely, but for now I am against suggestion number 2 ("No more ubers, but alternate defences/abilities!"), as the current Uber system effectively adds a new tower - for example, we can use both elemental (Uber) and physical (normal) traps on the same setup by equipping the Sphere, building the ele traps, then swapping the Uber out to put phys traps. Dunno if such a thing (being able to build both versions) is intended, but part of your suggestion would take such functionality away (by limiting the defense to just one version per playthrough, chosen before the run); Currently the lanes' specials (resistances, traits, special monsters) are rolled randomly on map creation, so there's no way to know beforehand which tower could be better, plus keeping the system as multiple versions of the tower (the other part of your 2nd suggestion, but without the limitation) could potentially enable creative development down the line (passives for specific versions of towers).
Ubers are there to "backend" content (push tower versions and the such to endgame), to leave some complicated mechanics and balance decisions to Nightmare difficulty and above; the access method to said mechanics doesn't matter much (if Gold, Wyv tokens, by leveling up, dropping specific items...) as long as the team can keep it to the endgame, and your suggestion would both give these versions for free and give it at start, conflicting with what the team has been doing up to this point.

I'm gonna try and give feedback on your other suggestions after I read it better, but kudos again on the clean and well written post!

I honestly think the fact to be able to carry both uber and non-uber version of the same tower was never intended. It leads to very stupid situation : first the uber spheres of abilities are way less effective since they sets you on ONE ability alternative whether the uber building put you stuck only during combat phase which is far better.

Second it gives a HUGE advantage to some heroes and the example of the Huntress is the best one, she has only thanks to her Uber more or less the best defence of the game when it was supposed to be the cheapest thing around. (So okay it's mostly because of the frosty power that it became that OP but still!).

In addition for now there is one ubers but when there gonna be like 4 ubers per heroes we will all have 8 defences to build eventually, leading to a very non strategic game where only the most op combination will dominate (which is already the case as it is anyway). Giving choices instead of access to everything force you to think of a strategy to tackle the content instead of braindeadly spamming traps all around the maps with an army of frost tower and health barricades from Squire.

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@Sombrero quote:I honestly think the fact to be able to carry both uber and non-uber version of the same tower was never intended.¹ It leads to very stupid situation : first the uber spheres of abilities are way less effective since they sets you on ONE ability alternative whether the uber building put you stuck only during combat phase which is far better.

Second it gives a HUGE advantage to some heroes and the example of the Huntress is the best one ², she has only thanks to her Uber more or less the best defence of the game when it was supposed to be the cheapest thing around. (So okay it's mostly because of the frosty power that it became that OP but still!).

In addition for now there is one ubers but when there gonna be like 4 ubers per heroes we will all have 8 defences to build eventually ³, leading to a very non strategic game where only the most op combination will dominate (which is already the case as it is anyway). Giving choices instead of access to everything force you to think of a strategy to tackle the content *instead of braindeadly spamming traps all around the maps with an army of frost tower and health barricades from Squire.

¹ We need official word on that, indeed. For abilities it is broken, for towers it isn't really that bad as it is better than your suggestion - only clumsy implemented (swapping spheres all the time is quite time consuming).

² Agreed on the crazy advantage, as it makes the Huntress the only builder capable of taking both mag res and phys res lanes.

³ I hope so! Still, see next point;

* Leaving the FOTM bashing aside (even if I agree with it), "giving choices" isn't an option on the game currently, as the game is somewhat randomly generated - you can't choose the best defenses for a situation beforehand when you don't know what the lanes will look like - If troll blood will roll, if the heavy lanes will have mag res on that wave, etecetera etecetera. Giving the player the choice between the towers on each build phase - the only solution that I can see - would be the same as keeping the ubers and enabling the player to switch between tower versions, as I pointed on my edited post.

So... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It would work on DD1's system, tho (we kinda always knew what would come out on each map and wave, as it was static for the most part).

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@Jeshua quote:


@Sombrero quote:I honestly think the fact to be able to carry both uber and non-uber version of the same tower was never intended.¹ It leads to very stupid situation : first the uber spheres of abilities are way less effective since they sets you on ONE ability alternative whether the uber building put you stuck only during combat phase which is far better.

Second it gives a HUGE advantage to some heroes and the example of the Huntress is the best one ², she has only thanks to her Uber more or less the best defence of the game when it was supposed to be the cheapest thing around. (So okay it's mostly because of the frosty power that it became that OP but still!).

In addition for now there is one ubers but when there gonna be like 4 ubers per heroes we will all have 8 defences to build eventually ³, leading to a very non strategic game where only the most op combination will dominate (which is already the case as it is anyway). Giving choices instead of access to everything force you to think of a strategy to tackle the content *instead of braindeadly spamming traps all around the maps with an army of frost tower and health barricades from Squire.

¹ We need official word on that, indeed. For abilities it is broken, for towers it isn't really that bad as it is better than your suggestion - only clumsy implemented (swapping spheres all the time is quite time consuming).

² Agreed on the crazy advantage, as it makes the Huntress the only builder capable of taking both mag res and phys res lanes.

³ I hope so! Still, see next point;

* Leaving the FOTM bashing aside (even if I agree with it), "giving choices" isn't an option on the game currently, as the game is somewhat randomly generated - you can't choose the best defenses for a situation beforehand when you don't know what the lanes will look like - If troll blood will roll, if the heavy lanes will have mag res on that wave, etecetera etecetera. Giving the player the choice between the towers on each build phase - the only solution that I can see - would be the same as keeping the ubers and enabling the player to switch between tower versions, as I pointed on my edited post.

So... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It would work on DD1's system, tho (we kinda always knew what would come out on each map and wave, as it was static for the most part).


Don't forget the hero deck system, allowing you to "easily" having 3 different builders at once, which give you more than enough opportunities to cover all hard situations, and if you are not playing on your own you go to at least 12 different builders accross your full team. That gives enough options not to switch your build at the start of each wave.

Do you really often change your spheres and all at the start of a wave ? We currently do only because the game lacks content and way to deal with ennemies (the towers are stupidly prioritizing first monsters and the traps are op as hell to deal with any type of ennemy).

Being able to switch to anything anytime is just ... boring I think. What is the point of choosing a hero then if we all have access to all defences of the game at anytime ? Let's just remove the heroes and make a classic tower defence game lol

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@Sombrero quote:Don't forget the hero deck system, allowing you to "easily" having 3 different builders at once, which give you more than enough opportunities to cover all hard situations, and if you are not playing on your own you go to at least 12 different builders accross your full team. That gives enough options not to switch your build at the start of each wave.

Do you really often change your spheres and all at the start of a wave ? We currently do only because the game lacks content and way to deal with ennemies (the towers are stupidly prioritizing first monsters and the traps are op as hell to deal with any type of ennemy).

Being able to switch to anything anytime is just ... boring I think. What is the point of choosing a hero then if we all have access to all defences of the game at anytime ? Let's just remove the heroes and make a classic tower defence game lol

Ugh, the deck. It really needs a dedicated button (for it's menu or to rotate through the heroes like Dynasty Warriors)... Keep in mind that the complaints about the deck are being made for solo play (4 heroes), not for team play (16).
Caught me on that one; I don't switch spheres around thaaaat much. Mostly the Uber on my app and the medium spheres on the huntress (the 20% ranged DPS and stun ones, or one mana regen + oil duration... stuff like that). Switching between Flamethrower and Flame-the_other_thing was the only way that I found to actually make proper use of the Flamethrower with very weak oily harpoons - such a hipster-yet-effective setup.
Agreed, it would be totally boring. On the current game. Wouldn't be so boring if you had to unlock everything beforehand (grinding monnies and tokens for the spheres) - it would feel like all the RPGs where you unlock more options and it feels good to know that it was through tears and blood that you gained those options; plus it definitely wouldn't feel boring if the devs actually built the future endgame maps and modes (catch the flag, defend the troll, yadda) around such a huge poll of options, as having access to a ton of stuffs makes it harder to discover what the optimal setup for a given situation and DU limit is.
Unless we are talking current standards, where harder just means more HP and damage for monsters.
Imagine for example a mode where you need to survive 1000 wyverns in 3 minutes: would you go full frozen, try to put slow auras on top of light posts, try a bazillion harpoons (if they ever start targetting fast enough), go for cannons, put some barrier on their way and build a ton of defenses around it...?
ofc the devs may actually want to make the game around 4 towers per hero and a ton of different heroes (... the hero deck really needs a rework then), thus both of our approaches get a no-go. :(

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Playing solo also means very low threat which requires less strategic efforts so to speak though I partly agree with you deck needs a tweak for solo play.

That being said I would love see an unlockable content thing. Where that wyvern token absurd system disappears and almost everything has to be unlocked (and not paid with gold !!!). Because gold grind is boring as hell, wyvern token too. A lot of options would be possible, I would like to see something along that the more you use a hero the more you unlock content for this hero. So it gives time to people to leanr to master their hero one by one and not having full access to everything when they already have lvl 50 heroes and end being terrible builders doing strategy involving barricades traps and auras only (+op frost yay).

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